I've been looking at this topic a lot lately and wanted to see people's opinion

the definition of an atheist from webster.com states:: "one who believes that there is no deity"

I would pose this argument to someone who may hold this view:

suppose I draw a circle, and that circle represents all knowledge (past, present, future, every fact that there is to know from the dawn of creation until now). then I ask someone (a professed atheist) to draw in what portion of that circle of all knowledge that they know (how much knowledge they have out of all knowledge). i would argue that no one could put much more than a mere dot inside that circle but lets say we have a genius on our hands and he knows 1/4 of all knowledge.

even w/ the genius, could you not just say then is it not possible that there is knowledge of God's existence out there somewhere and you just have not found it yet (as in the other 3/4 of the circle?) I would think that it is pretty much impossible to dispute that fact, that it MAY be out there and you just have not found it yet.

Therefore, I would argue w/ this that there is no true atheist, only agnostics.

2/28/2006 12:11:15 PM

that analogy makes perfect sense. why didn't everyone else think of that first?!

2/28/2006 12:20:34 PM

Can the atheist use Wikipedia?

[Edited on February 28, 2006 at 12:22 PM. Reason : sp]

2/28/2006 12:22:09 PM

i know i am not the first person to come up w/ the argument

i said that i had been looking @ the topic a lot lately and would pose that argument

not that i had made it up

i just wanted to get reactions about it

2/28/2006 12:22:55 PM

look at it this way:

they BELEIVE that there is no god much like others BELEIVE there is one. if you asked me that and i was an athiest id just say....sure it is possible, but the chance is so remote given everything we've looked at over time that im unwilling to consider it.

just b/c many religious zealots arent reasonable about possibilities, doesnt mean ppl who arent so crazy in their convictions cant believe the opposite. im sure you can find plenty of ppl who consider themselves real christians and still say there is a remote (but so unlikely it isnt worth considering) possibility of there being no god.

you also know more than a mere dot probably because of the way knowledge is linked. scientific facts you understand now are a result of thousands of years of experimentation and knowledge.


[Edited on February 28, 2006 at 12:27 PM. Reason : .]

2/28/2006 12:24:51 PM

well yeah, but what someones knows and what they believe are not necessarily the same

2/28/2006 12:25:12 PM

I think most athiests aren't claiming "I have the proof that there is no god", its more like "I don't believe in god for the same reason I don't believe in ghosts". I think they just believe the burden of proof should be on the ones who claim there is supernatural stuff going on. Agnostic implies more skepticism and uncertainty, and accusing people of skepticism because they can’t disprove a non-falsifiable notion makes no sense.

What about all those monothiests, they can make little dots on the cirlce. If in that little dot they can find even one God, imagine how many Gods there must be if you examine the whole circle.

2/28/2006 12:30:00 PM

Quote :

"Is there such a thing as a true atheist???"

Yes. They're called "Foxhole Atheists".




BTW,


Atheism is a faith.


(Actually, IMHO, it's the strongest faith....
IOW, it takes more of a "leap of faith" to truly believe there is no deity,
than it does to believe there is.)


Good luck getting federal funding for your Atheist faith-based organization, though....



[Edited on February 28, 2006 at 12:32 PM. Reason : ]

2/28/2006 12:31:47 PM

but Christians would say that they fully believe that there is a God and would try to prove his existence through the resurrection of Jesus Christ

what would an atheist use to prove fully that there is no God?

2/28/2006 12:39:46 PM

see here is the difference. Christians try to prove god through superstition, while athiests don't care. We have science.

2/28/2006 12:45:54 PM

what science is used to prove that there is def. no God?

2/28/2006 12:47:15 PM

since is based upon natural phenomena, not on superstitition. Everything can be explained through science. therefore, science disproves a god.

2/28/2006 12:48:44 PM

ahaha, someone read the pamphlet at church about how to attack atheists.

2/28/2006 12:51:11 PM

Quote :

"From the first post in questioning the true athiest: even w/ the genius, could you not just say then is it not possible that there is knowledge of God's existence out there somewhere and you just have not found it yet "

No, not in the true sence of athiesm. You see, some athiest do not subscribe to the God/Diety idea because some believe that all knowledge is not finite. Futhermore, the image of a man-like being pulling the strings unseen and unheard is not the ultimate picture that some people have of the universe. While others believe in an all-knowing eternal entity, others believe that an even broader picture of existence is at work, something that can not be expressed in mere words. No one knows for sure what created all this or if there was a creator even involved. I mean who knows what started the big bang afterall. It's questions like these that make drive man in the search of knowledge. For some infinity is a concept that is unattainable, and for others it's meaning is profund and also spiritual at once.

But i'm just blabbering about ideas and beliefs. To each his own.

2/28/2006 12:56:16 PM

I'm an atheist because I believe that the Judaeo-Christian-Islamic tradition has been the vehicle of some very bad ideas within our culture

2/28/2006 12:56:49 PM

let's not forget as well with theists, that you have to prescribe to their vision of god. With all the dieties that have existed and died out, what makes one the true one?

Why can't the true diety be some god taht we never heard of?

2/28/2006 1:00:06 PM

Quote :

"i know i am not the first person to come up w/ the argument"

No kidding. It's not even new. Anyways, atheism doesn't require perfect knowledge of every fact in existence. I have no reason to believe in mysticism, so I don't. If someone wants to call that "faith", I don't really care. I just call it good sense.

Oh, and if any one of the billions of theists want to tell me the part of the circle I'm missing, I'm listening.

2/28/2006 1:07:58 PM

Quote :

"let's not forget as well with theists, that you have to prescribe to their vision of god. With all the dieties that have existed and died out, what makes one the true one? Why can't the true diety be some god taht we never heard of?"

Good point, theres no telling how many gods have been worshipped in the past, oh lets say, two to three million years of human life on earth. Just thinking of the recent two thousand years theres been greek mithology, nordic, christian, muslim, judiasm, wiccan, zergastor(sp?), and a whole host of tribal religion that stretch from africa, native american, indonesian, polynesian. Couple that with the whole time span humans have walked on earth and one can infer there has been a shit load of gods and goddesses.

2/28/2006 1:09:48 PM

Quote :

"since is based upon natural phenomena, not on superstitition. Everything can be explained through science. therefore, science disproves a god."

Hardly. To that I'd say that God is a scientist. I find God to be much more believable when I consider him to be a being with all knowledge/power using concrete science to perform his miracles/creation/etc. At least more believable than thinking that he waves his arms and *poof* "magic" happens.

Man's science is just an approximation of God's science with the end goal of discovering more and more of what "true" science is.

2/28/2006 1:20:05 PM

2/28/2006 1:20:59 PM

Quote :

"Man's science is just an approximation of God's science with the end goal of discovering more and more of what "true" science is."

god had this really cool special science that no one has proof of. trust me. Jesus told me.

2/28/2006 1:23:48 PM

Quote :

"Everything can be explained through science."

Funny.

2/28/2006 1:27:54 PM

oh that's right

here come the jesus freaks with bullshit in mind

2/28/2006 1:33:48 PM

Quote :

"I find God to be much more believable when I consider him"

..stopped reading right there.

Whoever considers "God" to be male is an ignorant patriarchal fucktard.

I mean, I guess it's no surprise that people have historically believed in an anthropocentric god,
I just think that's the stupidest notion I've ever heard.

If you believe in extra-terrestrial intelligent life, then how could "God" be human, let alone male?
Do people still think that the Earth is the center of the universe?
Didn't Copernicus address that one already?

This idea of a "man in the clouds" is the most laughable shit ever.

2/28/2006 1:40:09 PM

hempster

..stopped reading right there.

2/28/2006 1:52:01 PM

Does it bother me that people believe in that diety or this diety?

No. I already expressed to each his own.

What does make me worry about the big 3 religious doctrines (Christianity, Judiasm, Islam) is the whole end of the world/amargeddon/rapture/revelations thing. I just find it ridiculous that someone can teach their family that the world is going to end and that only them and other saved ones are going to a peaceful afterlife in a magical painless transition as the rest of the world is going to be swallowed up in fire and the remains of human civilization is going to have to fight deamons and other underworldly creatures. That is the general ideology that a lot of true believers have. I just want to say that this is the most selfish thing to believe in (and most insane) and it is irresposible of a person to be that unwilling to say "no, I want humans to prosper and proliferate the universe" instead of "No worries here, when the world ends i'll be happily enjoying my promised afterlife dancing and singing with a pretty little halo on my head."

I just dont get how someone can be that brainwashed, and i'm not calling out all the the "big 3" believers, I just feel that this issue deserves mine and the rest of TWW's attention.

[Edited on February 28, 2006 at 1:56 PM. Reason : .]

2/28/2006 1:54:33 PM

but w/ science too there have been hundreds of things thought true and then proven false therefore making science fallable

nothing about the bible has ever been PROVEN false; i am not saying that people don't believe many things about the bible to be false; but none of it has ever been proven false

take the resurrection for example.....tons of people don't believe that it happened but no one has ever been able to prove w/o a shadow of a doubt that it did not happen

if that were the case, then all people who follow christianity should give up immediately and stop practicing b/c that is what all of christianity is based on. that has never been proven false.

2/28/2006 1:58:42 PM

Quote :

"nothing about the bible has ever been PROVEN false; i am not saying that people don't believe many things about the bible to be false; but none of it has ever been proven false "

Are you sure you want to make this claim?

2/28/2006 2:00:22 PM

^^
If it's your inclination to believe in something that can be so easily scrutinized that is your decision(fault to many). But with all do respect, please give your children if you have any the benifit of a doubt.

[Edited on February 28, 2006 at 2:03 PM. Reason : .]

2/28/2006 2:02:58 PM

Quote :

"I just feel that this issue deserves mine and the rest of TWW's attention."

You should probably make a thread on that.

2/28/2006 2:04:38 PM

I try to keep a low profile

2/28/2006 2:05:05 PM

supercalo:

according to the bible, the rapture is when Jesus will return from heaven and take up all of the believers and followers of God to be with Him in heaven. There will then be a period of seven years when all of the non-believers will go through tough times but over those seven years anyone who declares Jesus Christ lord and becomes saved will then go to heaven. after that time will be that battle b/t good and evil, or Armageddon, and the bible tells us that Jesus will win and heaven and hell will be separated forever. Jesus will then create a new heaven and a new earth where all of the believers will prosper w/o pain and suffering.

That I do not find to be selfish. To call it selfish because there is information presented and you can either accept or not accept is not a correct statement. If I am taught in math that 2+2=4 and I accept that and someone else does not does that mean I am being selfish?

2/28/2006 2:05:27 PM

I call it FantasyFuckingLand.

2/28/2006 2:08:49 PM

I will never force my children to believe what I believe. That would not make it a personal choice, which is what Jesus intended religion to be for everyone. A personal choice. I will tell them what I believe obviously, but if they do not choose to accept that then that is their own decision.

nutsmackr, i am not aware of anything ever being dug up or found that disproves what the bible says

the old testament is filled w/ prophecy written HUNDREDS of years b4 the coming of Christ that states there will be a Messiah to come, etc. etc. Jesus fulfilled more than 300 prophecies from the old testament at his first coming.

2/28/2006 2:09:32 PM

"Accept or not accept it"

I'm calling it all rubish.

The undeniable fact that 2 + 2 = 4 is not even comparable to a belief of the future

2/28/2006 2:09:56 PM

It's not exactly 2+2=4 though, is it?

More like 2+2=blueberry pancakes.

2/28/2006 2:11:13 PM

lol

[Edited on February 28, 2006 at 2:13 PM. Reason : I'm done kbncsufan, believe want you want, it wont affect me in any way. Cheers]

2/28/2006 2:11:28 PM

"I just want to say that this is the most selfish thing to believe in (and most insane) and it is irresposible of a person to be that unwilling to say "no, I want humans to prosper and proliferate the universe" instead of "No worries here, when the world ends i'll be happily enjoying my promised afterlife dancing and singing with a pretty little halo on my head.""

this is the part of your post that i was referring to

and later in your post you state something along the lines of, oh, no worries for me etc.

Becoming saved is not your get out of Hell free card. The bible states that not everyone who says lord, lord will enter the kingdom of heaven.

Believing Jesus christ rose from the dead and is your personal savior and having a personal relationship with him and living that daily is what gets you into heaven. not just saying, ok i believe.

2/28/2006 2:12:47 PM

I'll keep having a personal relationship with the flying spaghetti monster, thanks.

I was touched by his noodly appendage.



[Edited on February 28, 2006 at 2:16 PM. Reason : *]

2/28/2006 2:14:27 PM

Quote :

"nutsmackr, i am not aware of anything ever being dug up or found that disproves what the bible says"

I'll just start with some simple stuff

geocentric universe
world is only 6,000 years old

2/28/2006 2:20:08 PM

supercalo:

Not every christian denomination believes in the second coming as described by kbncsufan. Not to call him out or anything but I have read the bible and I have never even seen the word rapture anywhere. That is just the beginning of the differences. That's why the topic probably deserves a separate thread.

Personally... I don't believe hell to be a place where you burn and fight off demons. I believe it to be more of a state of mind where any suffering comes from the realization of what you could have attained but decided against. If you are happy with the choices ("bad" or "good") you made then you wouldn't suffer.

2/28/2006 2:20:26 PM

Quote :

"I'll keep having a personal relationship with the flying spaghetti monster, thanks."

Sweet fucking christ, I hate that meme and pretty much everyone who reads BoingBoing.

2/28/2006 2:22:29 PM

cry to jesus about it

2/28/2006 2:24:04 PM

"geocentric universe
world is only 6,000 years old"

what do u mean by this?

2/28/2006 2:24:41 PM

^Those have been proven false buddy

2/28/2006 2:25:13 PM

I haven't read the rest of this thread, because it's probably stupid, so if this argument has been made already, I apologize.

Your super clever analogy not only applies to atheism, but any type of theism as well, or any belief in anything or any knowledge of anything. And even if it were some sort of super insightful and true statement, that doesn't change the fact that the atheist, just like the theist, can agree to say that, regardless of the fact that they don't know everything in the universe, based on what they can see they can decide that they don't believe in a god.

2/28/2006 2:27:21 PM

let me add a flat earth to the items disproven

2/28/2006 2:29:32 PM

the Bible speaks of a sunrise and a sunset and the sun stopping and the moon stopping as the main points for the bible saying there is a geocentric universe

no one today believes in a geocentric universe; therefore by using the terms sunrise and sunset today are we contradicting ourselves b/c we all still use them? are we all still saying that we believe in a geocentric universe?

these examples come from joshua, pslams, and ecclesiastes

w/ regards to Joshua, the story goes when he prayed to God to give more time to defeat his enemy it appeared as though the sun stopped giving him more time; if you saw this and had more daylight and the sun was going down and stopped, would you not too say that the sun stopped?
this is not saying that the bible is calling for a geocentric universe, but as it appeared to them as they wrote it

Ecclesiastes 1:5 states, The sun rises and the sun goes down, and hastens to the place where it rises.

Like I said above, we still use these terms today and we don't advocate a geocentric universe

2/28/2006 2:37:52 PM

Psalms 19:4-6
yet their voice goes out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them he has set a tent for the sun, which comes forth like a bridegroom leaving his chamber, and like a strong man runs his course with joy. Its rising is from the end of the heavens, and its circuit to the end of them; and there is nothing hid from its heat.

2/28/2006 2:39:25 PM

Psalms states:

Psalms 19:4-6
yet their voice goes out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them he has set a tent for the sun, which comes forth like a bridegroom leaving his chamber, and like a strong man runs his course with joy. Its rising is from the end of the heavens, and its circuit to the end of them; and there is nothing hid from its heat.

once again, same thing; the bible states the sun rises and sun goes down; this is not a biblical contradiction: these words are still used today when it is known for sure that we don't not have a geocentric universe

2/28/2006 2:39:32 PM