I just don't get it. This sounds much more like a cult than a religion, I must be missing something...

Quote :

"Soon after Smith indicated he had received the Golden Plates, his focus turned to producing what he described as a translation of the engravings on the plates. With the financial and moral support of a wealthy Palmyra landowner named Martin Harris, Smith set off with Emma to Harmony, Pennsylvania to live near Emma's family. According to his wife's own account, once in Harmony, Smith began transcribing characters engraved on the plates and attempted to translate some of them by looking into the Urim and Thummim, a set of "large spectacles" he said was among the artifacts he acquired from Moroni. Harris came to Harmony in February 1828 to act as Smith's scribe (Roberts 1902, p. 19). By the middle of June 1828, Smith had dictated about 116 manuscript pages of text (Roberts 1902, p. 20), (Smith et al. 1835, sec. 36, v. 41)). Harris, however, who was having marital problems at the time, convinced Smith to allow him to take the manuscript pages home to Palmyra to show his skeptical wife. At about the same time, Emma gave birth to the young couple's first child (Smith 1853, p. 118), but the boy was stillborn (Howe 1834, p. 269). By the time Smith was able to inquire about the manuscript pages, Harris informed Smith that they had been lost. In fact, Harris' wife created the crisis to test the veracity of Smith's claims. She reasoned if he were able to duplicate the manuscript, then that would be evidence that he was translating a record not simply writing it, which she suspected. Smith indicated that he was devastated by the loss of these first records. Smith returned to Harmony and began dictating to Emma what would become the third section in the Doctrine and Covenants. This section consists of a supposed revelation in which Smith was rebuked for losing the manuscript pages, but was assured that all was not lost. Smith said that if he repented of what he had done, God would "only cause thee to be afflicted for a season, and thou art still chosen, and wilt again be called to the work" (Phelps 1833, 2:7). As a penalty, Smith claimed the angel took away the plates and the Urim and Thummim, returning them later that year on September 22, 1828. Smith said he was then allowed to continue translating the plates but was commanded to find a new scribe and to continue where he left off, without retranslating the pages he had lost. Members of the Mormon Church believe that those pages are scripture that has not yet been revealed to men and that was lost when the angel took the plates back from Joseph when he finished his translation. Critics of the Church regard this as a ruse to hide the fact that Smith created the Book of Mormon, rather than translated it from ancient records. (See also Book of Mormon#Authorship.) Between then and the spring of 1829, Smith's dictation was sporadic. "

WTF, how is this a religion?

3/15/2006 2:28:49 PM

re·li·gion :
   1.
         1. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
         2. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
   2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
   3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
   4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

3/15/2006 2:35:14 PM

"cult than a religion"

splitting hairs

3/15/2006 2:39:40 PM

i guess the real question is how do 13,000,000 people believe in that story? the more you look at joseph smith, the more of a scammer he appears.

he translates 13 pages, some smart chick steals the pages, challenging him to re-translate them to prove its not a sham
he makes up some excuse that the angel Moroni commands him to not re-translate the earlier pages, to start up where he left off
wtf is that about
and how do 13 million people believe it?

oh, forgot to post the link:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Smith%2C_Jr.

[Edited on March 15, 2006 at 2:40 PM. Reason : ]

3/15/2006 2:39:56 PM

um, ok, and jesus was born of a virgin, turned water into wine, raised the dead, was crucified, and rose 3 days later, BODILY, into "heaven," which apparently means heaven is a physical place in the sky...

and you're worried about mormonism? yeah, it's a little more scam-like because smith's story has so many holes, but at least we know joseph smith really existed, unlike jesus.

3/15/2006 2:46:59 PM

Just to get this out of the way up front. I converted to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (mormons).

Give Doctrine and Covenants section 10 a read:

http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/10

If that is too long the synopsis is at the top:

Quote :

"Revelation given to Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Harmony, Pennsylvania, in the summer of 1828. HC 1: 20—23. Herein the Lord informs Joseph of alterations made by wicked men in the 116 manuscript pages from the translation of the “Book of Lehi,” in the Book of Mormon. These manuscript pages had been lost from the possession of Martin Harris, to whom the sheets had been temporarily entrusted. See heading to Section 3. The evil design was to await the expected retranslation of the matter covered by the stolen pages, and then to discredit the translator by showing discrepancies created by the alterations. That this wicked purpose had been conceived by the evil one, and was known to the Lord even while Mormon, the ancient Nephite historian, was making his abridgment of the accumulated plates, is shown in the Book of Mormon (The Words of Mormon 1: 3-7)."

I'll admit that was one of several sticking points I've had over the few years I've been a member. One line of reasoning I always took was that the "excuse" boils down to a trial of faith. You had to have faith that D&C 10 was indeed the real reason and it wasn't really an attempt to cover up a lie. The whole ordeal being a "trial by faith" always sat wrong with me because it would seem that any discrepancies between the up until recently lost but now found work and any re-translation would require just as much trial by faith. Either way it all boils down to the same thing. Was Joseph Smith a liar?

The reason I didn't let it get to me is because I've prayed about it and I felt I have received an answer.

[Edited on March 15, 2006 at 2:58 PM. Reason : -]

3/15/2006 2:54:36 PM

um, we don't know Jesus existed? Oh, besides historical evidence?

3/15/2006 2:55:47 PM

^^ yes, joseph smith was a liar.

3/15/2006 3:02:07 PM

Didn't you guys see that South Park?

3/15/2006 3:06:23 PM

Quote :

"um, we don't know Jesus existed? Oh, besides historical evidence?"

this has been discussed multiple times, and I've made my points very clear in those threads. do a search.

here
http://www.dirtygreek.org/journal/journalId/1756

[Edited on March 15, 2006 at 3:10 PM. Reason : .]

3/15/2006 3:07:06 PM

^When did you start to believe that there was a chance that Jesus never existed?

I remember talking about how I thought JC was a really cool MAN, and I coulda sworn that you encouraged me to look at the gnostics if I really wanted to get into what Jesus was actually like. I may be making that exchange up. I don't know.

3/15/2006 3:19:58 PM

Dumb da dumb dumb dumb.

3/15/2006 3:24:42 PM

Quote :

"I remember talking about how I thought JC was a really cool MAN, and I coulda sworn that you encouraged me to look at the gnostics if I really wanted to get into what Jesus was actually like. I may be making that exchange up. I don't know."

though depending on how long it's been since I said that I could have said that, I'd say it's more likely that I was being sarcastic and/or just pointing out that most gnostics didn't think jesus was a real man. they used him as a symbol, and they were very closely tied to the mystery cults who shared similar stories about a dying/resurrecting godman

3/15/2006 3:30:42 PM

I still want to know what the deal is with the magic underwear.

3/15/2006 3:33:50 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus-myth

3/15/2006 3:55:41 PM

just remember: IT'S NOT CHRISTIANITY

3/15/2006 4:07:13 PM

The history of the mormons, specifically during the 19th century, is really fucked up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_Meadows_Massacre

3/15/2006 4:16:02 PM

b/c we all know there was no violence in the history of other christians

3/15/2006 4:17:31 PM

i learned all i needed to know about mormonism from south park

3/15/2006 4:27:36 PM

Did anyone else read "Moronism: WTF?????" as the thread title? Sometimes the eyes play tricks...

3/15/2006 4:32:32 PM

^^^ well then by all means its ok for the mormons to gun down children.

Look up the concept of blood atonement.

3/15/2006 6:11:05 PM

Mormons are awesome. You people don't know what you're talking about.

My dad said he heard that the difference between a cult and a religion is about a hundred years.

3/15/2006 7:41:24 PM

Entirely true. For many hundreds of years, what we call mainstream Christianity now was nothing more than a cult in Rome.

3/15/2006 7:43:17 PM

^^ my dad said your dad is a fucking idiot.

[Edited on March 15, 2006 at 7:43 PM. Reason : *]

3/15/2006 7:43:32 PM

Regarding the Mountain Meadows massacre and its supposed leader, John D. Lee:

Quote :

"John D. Lee was excommunicated from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and later executed for his alleged actions. While Lee admitted his reluctant complicity in a lengthy confession given prior to his execution (Life and Confessions of John D. Lee, pp. 238-242), he claimed he was a scapegoat for the many Mormons, including leaders George A. Smith and Isaac C. Haight, responsible for the massacre. In May 1961, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints posthumously reinstated Lee's membership."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_Meadows_Massacre

[Edited on March 15, 2006 at 8:01 PM. Reason : sss]

3/15/2006 7:57:50 PM

i dont believe any of the stuff they beleive.

but im not going to condemn it simply because they have the idea of community and family down better than anyone. theyre cool like that. they can believe whatever as long as theyre upstanding as far as im concerned.

no scientologists...they believe in bullshit AND theyre douchebags. I used to live in Tampa, and Clearwater is fucking scary thanks to those assholes.

3/15/2006 9:53:42 PM

Maybe that's why my uncle just left Clearwater...

Didn't know they had a big following down there.

3/15/2006 9:56:36 PM

im having a gay nutsack licking hurricanes goat cheese gormet themed party. see'a then.

3/15/2006 9:57:43 PM

dude...Clearwater is the world headquarters for Scientology. The "Sea Organization" (its like their College of Cardinals) is based there. They have a massive "Church" downtown and a resort on the beach called Sandcastles.

So why Clearwater? Thats easy...

John Travolta lives there.

3/15/2006 10:00:10 PM

no shit?

I was just down at clearwater last weekend. My aunt and uncle live in Westchase.

I wish i had run into some scientologists so that I could mock them.

[Edited on March 15, 2006 at 11:08 PM. Reason : asfd]

3/15/2006 11:08:03 PM

the Sea Organization members are always together and wearing blue shirts and khakis...theyre hard to miss crossing the street downtown. and the church is one of the biggest buildings downtown...its pretty discrete tho

i remember they had kiosks in the mall too. one time one of them tried to hand me a flyer and i said "no thanks, I'm OT 7". That bitch actually followed after me saying "excuse me young man, what did you say?" That pisses them off sooo much. If you say youre OT 7, youre basically mocking their most revered members and they get really pissed.

L Ron was a 9. Travolta is a 7. Tom Cruise is a 6 currently.

[Edited on March 15, 2006 at 11:38 PM. Reason : .]

3/15/2006 11:34:54 PM

hahaahhaha, i gotta remember that.

3/16/2006 12:28:01 AM

The statistics on membership within mormonism are fucked up. Many individuals who no longer consider themselves Mormons are counted in those roles. Likewise, individuals whom the church has lost track of are kept on the roles until they reach the age of 110. As someone who grew up a Mormon but later left the religion and became athiest, I will assure you it is 100% malarky. There is no power of discernment, Joseph Smith was a liar who couldn't keep his dick in his pants so he created polygamy. The different versions of the First Vision are so numerous I can't even keep track. Joseph Smith was not murdered by a mob of anti-mormons. He was killed by a mob of mormons who were pissed that Joseph had tried to take their wives. Brigham Young was directly complicit in the Mountain Meadows Massacre. Joseph Smith stole the Book of Mormon from the Spaulding Manuscript. Native Americans do not share DNA trackers with Jews. Gordon B. Hinckley is a fraud. The Hoffman forgeries managed to make it past his power of discernment. Blacks weren't suppose to receive the priesthood until after the millenium, but recieved it back in '78. So where is the millenium? Mormonism is outrightly racist. Where are the Moon Quakers? Where are the people living on the Sun? Joseph Fielding Smith stated before congress that he did not have the power of discernment and had never seen Jesus. Polygamy was practiced with the sanction of the church well after President Woodruff banned it. Joseph Smith's son did not become a prophet like Smith claimed. Instead he died in a mental hospital. Jesus did not have a second coming on the date smith declared. The Temple ceremonies have changed many times over, despite reassurance that the true word of god does not change. Utah leads the country in anti-depressant usage. Joseph F. Smith delcared man would never walk on the moon because it was too holy. etc.

3/16/2006 1:41:10 AM

Jason Smith

3/16/2006 1:55:52 AM

Quote :

"This sounds much more like a cult than a religion, I must be missing something..."

What you're missing is the fact that all religions are cults and all cults are religions.
One is used derogatorily by people who think their religion is better.

The same is true with the words "government" and "regime". You'll never hear modern
Western democracies use the term "democratic regime", because they want you to think
that democratic governments are good, but regimes are bad, and therefore, must
not be democratic.

The pen is mightier than the sword.

Duh.

Quote :

"My dad said he heard that the difference between a cult and a religion is about a hundred years."

That's about right.....

Quote :

""cult than a religion" splitting hairs"

Quote :

"Entirely true. For many hundreds of years, what we call mainstream Christianity now was nothing more than a cult in Rome."

Exactly.

[generalization]
The older and larger a religious body, the more religiously intolerant the
followers are. (not always…..just generally)
[/generalization]


[Edited on March 16, 2006 at 10:20 AM. Reason : ]

3/16/2006 10:15:40 AM

Quote :

"The older and larger a religious body, the more religiously intolerant the followers are. (not always…..just generally)"

Did you mean to say "tolerant" instead of "intolerant"?

3/16/2006 11:48:16 AM

I doubt it.

3/16/2006 12:02:09 PM

i dont know about the religion but the only mormon i know, is one of the sweetest girls ive ever met, and one of the most well traveled and all around good person i know. This may not be indicative of all people but she even went to that young college... something like Brighum young i think. So in my book whether or not its a bunch of crock, there ethos and concentration on family seems to me a very good thing...

3/16/2006 12:13:37 PM

I mean, yeah, the handful of mormons I've known have been super nice, but the religion is fucked up. I mean, they basically had institutionalized racism and considered being black a curse until they had a new "revelation from God" in 1978. That's one of 1000 retarded and/or fucked up things.

3/16/2006 12:24:59 PM

yea but given a few hundred years and it will be the new christianity... watch... all the religions have there fucked up phase, then they either conquer everyone, or someone big converts... it has to more with ones own understanding of what the religion means to you then the religion itself... in my opinion..

3/16/2006 12:39:24 PM

Read Jon Krakauer's "Under the Banner of Heaven", a book on Mormon Fundamentalism. It's disturbing shit.

3/16/2006 12:40:14 PM

Nah, Scientology is where it's at.

3/16/2006 12:40:22 PM

Quote :

"yea but given a few hundred years and it will be the new christianity... watch... all the religions have there fucked up phase, then they either conquer everyone, or someone big converts... it has to more with ones own understanding of what the religion means to you then the religion itself... in my opinion.."

The religion is currently shrinking and not growing. As for the focus on the family nonsense, it is only true if the family is mormon. individuals who have left mormonism are generally not treated with the same respect as those that remained. And krakauer's book is an excellent read.

3/16/2006 1:03:18 PM