Most of what I've been hearing on the "NEWS" is that this new labor law in France makes it easier to fire young people. They are making it sound bad.

But aren't they just trying to fix the problems they have because of socialism? Right now the way it is.... if you get a job in France and you are there for 6 months you basically have that job for life no matter what.

How could that possibly work. Maybe that's why they have so many people unemployed. It seems like when I watch reports on this story they make it sound OUTRAGEOUS that France would do this and that it would never happen here.... BUT who in this country has guaranteed employment for life? I think THAT is the catalyst for unemployment and the problems they have.

3/28/2006 10:19:17 AM

we have tenure for academics

why not for other professions?

or

why not cancel it for academics?

(the latter is clearly the better choice)

3/28/2006 10:21:36 AM

there is a strong argument in support of academic tenure.

the job of an academic includes, but is not limited to, upheaving the established paradigm (think galileo, et al.) Tenure allows an honest academic to do so. Yes, it is abused by some nutcases (think Ward Churchill), but lets not throw out the baby with the bathwater here.

Almost all other professions do not have a component requiring the occasional destruction of established belief. So they don't need the protection of tenure.


p.s. french people are freaking morons. youth unemployment over there is 50% and yet they think its outrageous that "anglo-saxon" (read: american) ideas would "intrude" into their system. Newsflash: your system is BROKEN - you have 50% unemployment. We have 5%. STFU and swallow a free market.

[Edited on March 28, 2006 at 10:31 AM. Reason : s]

3/28/2006 10:28:53 AM

Well, to be honest, unemployment among young blacks was in the 26% range a decade or so ago.

That it is now only 12% or so had more to do with the erosion of the American minimum wage than anything else.

So, although the current law in France will help young minority unemployment, it won't make the problem go away until they undo some of the draconian wage regulations.

[Edited on March 28, 2006 at 11:02 AM. Reason : France wage]

3/28/2006 10:55:18 AM

l
o
l
lol

3/28/2006 10:57:40 AM

I'm watching right now on cnn, and the french police have got these water cannon trucks out spraying the protestors. This is kinda interesting..

3/28/2006 1:30:16 PM

france needs another bloodbath

purge the wealthy and elites

viva la guillotine!!1

3/28/2006 1:40:31 PM

"NEWS"

3/28/2006 1:41:02 PM

BREAKING NEWS!!

SOCIALISM DOESN'T WORK!!!!

3/28/2006 2:35:48 PM

BREAKING NEWS!!

FRENCH SURRENDER EMINENT!!

3/28/2006 2:39:28 PM

the french hold surrender as the eminent response?

3/28/2006 2:53:50 PM

BREAKING NEWS!

FRANCE FAILS WHILE OTHER SOCIALIST DEMOCRACIES HAVE UNEMPLOYMENT 6% OR LESS!!11

IN OTHER NEWS, AMERICANS KNOW JACK SHIT ABOUT THE REST OF THE WORLD!

3/28/2006 2:55:44 PM

ya germany is doing GREAT!!1

3/28/2006 3:35:15 PM

i see sandsanta added his brilliant insight to this thread too

3/28/2006 3:43:42 PM

^^^ There are degrees of socialism.

That said, France's labor market is not "socialized" in that it is government owned. More accurately, it has been rigged by the nations unions to enrich the "insiders" at the expense of everyone else. Specifically, if you are already in a unionized industry, you have job security and high wages. Everyone else gets temporary contracts or simply unemployment.

True socialists, I suspect, would never allow this, as the damage to the nations productive base is indefensible.

Free-marketteers would never allow this, as the damage to the nations consumers is indefensible.

[Edited on March 28, 2006 at 3:52 PM. Reason : ^]

3/28/2006 3:51:50 PM

I demand the French leaders legislates more resources into existence.

3/28/2006 4:35:36 PM

Quote :

"FRANCE FAILS WHILE OTHER SOCIALIST DEMOCRACIES HAVE UNEMPLOYMENT 6% OR LESS!!"

Can you point out some examples of countries with these low unemployment rates and a highly regulated labor market like France's?

3/29/2006 11:12:53 PM

china

3/29/2006 11:16:05 PM

Iceland 2.1%
Austria 5.8%
Belgium 7.6%
Portugal 7.5%

Should I name more?

3/29/2006 11:23:03 PM

more regulated than the US?

well, theres Canada, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Finland, Ireland, Luxemborg, Switzerland, The Netherlands...damnit, ive done this thread before...

3/29/2006 11:33:24 PM

Quote :

"Iceland 2.1% Austria 5.8% Belgium 7.6% Portugal 7.5% Should I name more?"

I see reading isn't your strong suit. I asked him to substantiate his under 6% claim and you gave me 1 country greatly under 6 and 1 slightly under 6.

Now try naming the ones with unemployment rates over 7 or 8. I bet you get more of those.

3/29/2006 11:41:52 PM

Also, just as a general exercise, can you link those rates. I'm not finding anything more recent than 2003 for most countries and I'd like to be able to see them for myself.

3/29/2006 11:44:38 PM

Canada, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Finland, Ireland, Luxemborg, Switzerland, The Netherlands

Best stuff I can find comes from http://www.ibeurope.com/Factfile/78unemp.htm which is for March 2005 (and doesn't include enough countries.

Canada isn't listed
Sweden - 6.1%
Denmark - 5.1%
Finland - 8.9%
Ireland - 4.3%
Luxemborg - 4.4%
Swits. - not listed
Netherlands - 4.6%

US - 5.2%

None of these seem to be whipping our asses or anything. Admittedly, a one time shot at unemployment really tells you nothing, but I don't have any trend maps available. Do you?
Now look at the ones that are MUCH higher than ours...

3/29/2006 11:51:16 PM

Quote :

"I see reading isn't your strong suit. I asked him to substantiate his under 6% claim and you gave me 1 country greatly under 6 and 1 slightly under 6."

You might want to read agian, you asked for countries with low unemployement rates and high market regulation, those were the first four that came to mind when I thought of countries with highly regulated labor markets.

"Can you point out some examples of countries with these low unemployment rates and a highly regulated labor market like France's?"

I was just doing what you asked, I didn't really care enough to do a great deal of research on it

And for any unemployment, GDP, etc. statistics, it's best to check the CIA factbook.

3/29/2006 11:52:12 PM

Quote :

""FRANCE FAILS WHILE OTHER SOCIALIST DEMOCRACIES HAVE UNEMPLOYMENT 6% OR LESS!!" Can you point out some examples of countries with these low unemployment rates and a highly regulated labor market like France's? "

The word "these" most obviously refers to the quote made just a few seconds before that. You know, the one with the 6 in it.

3/29/2006 11:53:45 PM

fine, I don't care

I gave you some numbers, do you plan on biting my head off?

I never said they were lower than whatever, I just listed some, I didn't even relate them to your post

Quote :

"None of these seem to be whipping our asses or anything."

Who said they were? I don't think anyone was even trying to say that.

[Edited on March 30, 2006 at 12:00 AM. Reason : ]

3/30/2006 12:00:33 AM

Then you should read the thread before responding...
It was obvious we were arguing the merits of labor restrictions versus free labor markets

And yes, while you are in the Soap Box, you may assume people will bite your head off.

3/30/2006 12:01:45 AM

I wasn't arguing shit. I was just posting some numbers. Perhaps you should read my post.

If I really wanted to discount your point, I'd bring up cuba with 1.9%.

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/fields/2129.html

3/30/2006 12:10:49 AM

It's not fair to compare a country with 300 million people to smaller countries in terms of whooping ass. It is fair to compare unemployment

3/30/2006 12:14:30 AM

If you aren't making a response to my post, perhaps the quote of me at the beginning was misleading...


^You're right. I didn't mean to say we were better than them, just comparing our unemployment. However, I do think that free(er) labor laws are a better idea.

[Edited on March 30, 2006 at 12:18 AM. Reason : .]

3/30/2006 12:17:58 AM

Quote :

"Now look at the ones that are MUCH higher than ours..."

Eastern Europe? They're not regulated as much and countries like Poland are at around 20%.

3/30/2006 12:21:47 AM

Quote :

"perhaps the quote of me at the beginning was misleading..."

my first post in this thread had no quote

I think you missed the point of this thread anyways. No one was saying that all european countries have lower unemployment than the us.

3/30/2006 12:26:18 AM

Quote :

"^You're right. I didn't mean to say we were better than them, just comparing our unemployment. However, I do think that free(er) labor laws are a better idea."

and it has been proven time and time again.

3/30/2006 12:27:25 AM

not really

see Keynesian economics

The government can adjust for aggregate demand and supply of labor. This isn't done properly at times, but it isn't really that much worse than the huge swings free markets have due to lack of regulation.

[Edited on March 30, 2006 at 12:31 AM. Reason : ]

3/30/2006 12:29:10 AM

Don't talk Keynesian Economics with me, I'm graduating in two months with an Econ degree.
Keynesian economics has NOTHING to do with the labor restrictions in France. Those aren't done for economic reasons at all, but for social reasons. Adjusting the economy in a Keynesian way is one thing, but what France has done to make a "safety-net" for employment is not an adjustment in the economy in the way Keynes is used.

btw...Hayek forever bitches.

[Edited on March 30, 2006 at 1:07 AM. Reason : .]

3/30/2006 1:06:56 AM

Quote :

"Keynesian economics has NOTHING to do with the labor restrictions in France."

Where did I say it did? I said free(er) markets haven't been proven time and time agian to be a better idea.

3/30/2006 1:08:51 AM

american unemployment is always underreported. the figures only include those people who have filed for unemployement claims.

3/30/2006 1:38:47 AM

The term "unemployment" doesn't refer to anyone without a job, it only refers to those who would like to have a job, but don't. For example, a mother who stays at home and takes care of her kids and does housework is not unemployed. However if the same woman were to start going out and trying to get jobs, she would be.

3/30/2006 9:27:02 AM

didnt they have 1 million people at the protest this tues? The young unemployed french people are angry over the CPE - contrat de premiere embauche, which is the law that says anyone under 26 who has not held the job for a certain period of time can be fired without the warning period/continuation of salary while they find other work that other workers who are older or have been there longer receive, so it seems when employers are pressed they fire people under 26 since. Also you have to have held a job for a certain amount of time to be considered unemployed or you have to have been without a job for a certain amount of time to qualify for other government aid so these young people get screwed from both sides- that and france has a pretty good education reputation and graduation and all so its not like these young people arent qualified hence their frustration.

3/30/2006 5:53:59 PM

eh nevermind - i don't really know enough about this to comment

(when was the last time you heard that in the soap box?)

[Edited on March 31, 2006 at 12:30 AM. Reason : .]

3/31/2006 12:17:43 AM

then note to french university graduates, MOVE OUT

3/31/2006 12:31:00 AM