Quote :

"US-led troops in Iraq are to undergo ethical training in the wake of the alleged murder of civilians in Haditha. For the next 30 days, they will receive lessons in "core warrior values", a military statement said. -- http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/5036686.stm"

I want to know what these "core warrior values" are. it sounds really cool.

I mean obviously, executing women and children is not a "core warrior value". but i figure they don't need 30 days to cover just that, so there must be more.

maybe someone will make a deck of cards with a "core warrior value" on each one, like they did for the "Prominent Iraqis Wanted Dead or Alive" at the start of the war.




[Edited on June 2, 2006 at 12:49 AM. Reason : link]

6/2/2006 12:34:16 AM

Eh, I think it's a good idea.

6/2/2006 2:09:02 AM

They'll teach them the ways of the Klingons.

6/2/2006 3:22:28 AM

i personally doubt it'll be anything new. there is already a decent amount of ethics/UCMJ/rules of war training.

just revisiting stuff that might not have been emphasized as much as it should lately. maybe they'll go a little more in depth, and particularly on WHY it's so important.


this isn't really central to any argument, but it's not unrelated and I happen to like it. It's a speech given by General Mattis just prior to leading his division into combat as the war in Iraq began. i've seen him speak a couple of times, and he hit on many of the same ideas. Keep in mind that this is the same guy who caught fire from the press a while back for saying "Actually, it’s a lot of fun to fight. You know, it’s a hell of a hoot… It’s fun to shoot some people.", and was poised as a likely candidate for next Commandant of the Marine Corps (until he poisoned the political well with that comment). I've heard that he killed a man with an e-tool (small, folding spade/shovel) in Vietnam.

Quote :

"For decades, Saddam Hussein has tortured, imprisoned, raped and murdered the Iraqi people; invaded neighboring countries without provocation; and threatened the world with weapons of mass destruction. The time has come to end his reign of terror. On your young shoulders rest the hopes of mankind. When I give you the word, together we will cross the Line of Departure, close with those forces that choose to fight, and destroy them. Our fight is not with the Iraqi people, nor is it with members of the Iraqi army who choose to surrender. While we will move swiftly and aggressively against those who resist, we will treat all others with decency, demonstrating chivalry and soldierly compassion for people who have endured a lifetime under Saddam’s oppression. Chemical attacks, treachery, and the use of the innocent as human shields can be expected, as can unethical tactics. Take it all in stride. Be the hunter, not the hunted: never allow your unit to be caught with its guard down. Use good judgment and act in the best interest of our Nation. "You are part of the world’s most feared and trusted force. Engage your brain before you engage your weapon. Share your courage with each other as we enter the uncertain terrain north of the Line of Departure. Keep faith with your comrades on your left and right and Marine Air overhead. Fight with a happy heart and strong spirit. For the mission’s sake, our country’s sake, and the sake of the men who carried the Division’s colors in past battles—who fought for life and never lost their nerve—carry out you mission and keep your honor clean. Demonstrate to the world that there is ’No Better Friend, No Worse Enemy’ than a U.S. Marine. J.N. Mattis Major General, US Marines Commanding"

[Edited on June 2, 2006 at 10:54 AM. Reason : asdfsdfa]

6/2/2006 10:43:54 AM

i wonder how many suits of body armor could have been bought with what its going to cost for 30 days of "core warrior value" training

6/2/2006 10:51:56 AM

1. you don't think that re-emphasizing ethics and law is of the utmost importance?

2. yes, they have full body armor suits, but they're bulky and hot from what i've seen, and the logistics of producing and delivering tons of them would also take time. there are problems with them other than simple cost.

3. if saving American lives is your bottom line and only concern, you still shouldn't discount the ethics training.

[Edited on June 2, 2006 at 11:34 AM. Reason : asdf]

6/2/2006 10:56:50 AM

^^ missing the whole point

6/2/2006 11:20:26 AM

Quote :

"On your young shoulders rest the hopes of mankind. "

wow

what?

^i'm not missing anything

^^2. i know that most of the people in the field don't want body suits, i'm just trying to make the point that there are more pressing things to worry about than RE-TRAINING EVERY SINGLE MARINE CAUSE A FEW FUCKED UP

^^1. no. when it appears there is a massive failure of conscience among the warfighters over there, then i will change my mind
but taking this much time to re-emphasize "ethics and law" to every troop is foolish

what is it, 8 people being investigated right now?

this is not an epidemic of immorality

punish the folks who did this, but let the other fuckers fight

hell, i'm more upset with the guy firing at the civilians in afghanistan, but nobody gives a shit about afghanistan...complaining about afghanistan is soooooo 2002

[Edited on June 2, 2006 at 11:38 AM. Reason : ^^3. saving lives is not my bottom line, having the correct emphasis and focus is]

6/2/2006 11:36:27 AM

Quote :

" wonder how many suits of body armor could have been bought with what its going to cost for 30 days of "core warrior value" training"

The cost of one powerpoint presentation?

Honestly, who still thinks there's a theater-wide shortage of body armor?

6/2/2006 12:29:42 PM

oh good grief

6/2/2006 12:31:48 PM

Quote :

"what is it, 8 people being investigated right now? "

This isn't the first occurrence though. There have been multiple accusations, and other known instances of "atrocities" committed by US soldiers. It's probably not a systemic problem, but if it is, this will help, and also prevent any "copy cats."

6/2/2006 12:40:44 PM

My new assertion is that no war is ethical. It's war, for fuck's sake, and these massacres aren't completely uncommon, and that's one of many reasons why some of us would like to avoid war at pretty much any cost.

To put it clearer:

Some people say, "OMG, the women and children. This is awful!" (I used to be one of these people.)

But now I say, "What the fuck did you think war was, bitches?"


[Edited on June 2, 2006 at 12:45 PM. Reason : sss]

6/2/2006 12:42:33 PM

Quote :

"but taking this much time to re-emphasize "ethics and law" to every troop is foolish"

Quote :

"this is not an epidemic of immorality punish the folks who did this, but let the other fuckers fight"

I concur, but unless I'm misunderstanding something, it's not like it's gonna be "TIME OUT--stop fighting for a month and let's all re-learn how to play by the rules."

i'm sure it'll be something where officers and NCOs make a concerted effort to spend time discussing ethics, the UCMJ, international law and the how their behavior impacts the "big picture". Some of it will probably be informal discussions with their men, some of it will probably be lectures that are attended.



The same thing happens after mishaps and stuff. A few people in a command get DUIs, and everyone comes in on Saturday and gets briefed to death on why it's bad (been there). COs make sure to include at least a brief statement about not drinking and driving every time they speak in front of their men (even if it was another unit that was the offender, they'll still say "we're doing well on this, unlike _____. Keep it up.) The idea is to keep it on everyone's mind to try to minimize complacency.

The aviation community is notorious for safety stand-downs. Couple of birds go down, and you can almost expect that you will be taking a day out of the normal routine to discuss safety related things. There was actually a Navy/USMC-wide no fly day a few months ago after several major mishaps in rapid succession. Again, the idea is to get it on everyone's minds to where they think just a little more about things that could go wrong and get people killed.

6/2/2006 5:00:20 PM

Why didn't this happen after Abu Ghraib?

6/2/2006 5:05:23 PM

Army vs USMC?

massacre even more serious than fucking with POWs?

I don't know.

6/2/2006 5:06:49 PM

LL would not be Cool with this, J.

6/2/2006 6:04:35 PM

we cant have us troops shooting people like when us troops shot innocent nazis at malmedy
-o'reilly

6/2/2006 6:19:22 PM

since when has that guy been right about anything?

6/2/2006 6:33:27 PM

Quote :

"this is not an epidemic of immorality"

It isn't just one incident.

There are a lot of kids in the military who go power-mad when you set them loose with a gun in a country they don't understand.

Not only do they cause problems for Iraqis, but they make the entire situation harder for soldiers who are trying to really do their jobs.

6/2/2006 6:51:48 PM

core warrior value #23: maintain a high enemy:friendly kill ratio


one marine is killed by a roadside bomb:

Lance Cpl. Miguel Terrazas, 20


in retaliation, 24 civilians executed by gunshot, at point blank range, after being handcuffed:

Aisha Younis Salim, age 2
Zainab Younis Salim, 3
Sabaa Younis Salim, 9
Abdullah Waleed Abdul Hameed, child
Muhammad Younis Salim, child
Noor Younis Salim, 14
Car: Akram Hameed Flayeh, 21
Muhammad Fatal Ahmed, 21
Wajdi Oyada Abid, 22
Kahtan Ayed Ahmed, 24
Ahmed Finer Muslih, 25
Khalid Oyada Abid, 27
Chassib Ayed Ahmed, 27
Marwan Ayed Ahmed, 28
Huda Yaseen Ahmed, 28
Rasheed Abdul Hameed Hassan, 30
Asmaa Salman Raseef, 32
Waleed Abdul Hameed Hassan, 35
Aida Yaseen Ahmed, 35
Younis Salim Raseef, 41
Jamal Ayed Ahmed, 41
Khameesa Toama Ali, 65
Abdul Hameed Hasan Ali, late 70s

plus an unreported number of cows.


this should please Bill O'Reilly and friends, as this just further confirms that American lives are of the greatest worth when compared to the rest of the planet.

6/3/2006 12:47:07 AM