http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/060620

this thread is for the discussion of Sports Guy's column



the most important content is the revitalized style of play offered by teams like the mavericks and the referees in game 5.

6/20/2006 4:13:35 PM

so............

many.................

words................










but good article.

6/20/2006 4:28:56 PM

i found myself agreeing with everything except this:

Quote :

"Second, the '93 Celtics nearly saved their season in Charlotte (Game 4, first round) when Kevin McHale lobbed a halfcourt alley-oop to Dee Brown, who jumped over everyone, caught the ball in mid-air and laid it down to the basket ... where it was promptly goaltended by Kendall Gill, only the refs didn't have the guts to call goaltending because the game was in Charlotte and everyone immediately charged the court as soon as Brown "missed." This one's on ESPN Classic and NBA TV all the time because it was Kevin McHale's final game."

that shit wasn't goaltending

6/20/2006 4:36:15 PM

Quote :

"That reminds me, here's an interesting question from California reader Brian Ackerman: "After watching Shaq miss more free throws, I can't help but ask: Is there another situation in sports where a seventh-grade girl can be more proficient in a key part of the sport than one of the most dominant professional players of all time? I can't make the question any more basic. There are literally hundreds of 12-year-old girls who can shoot free throws better than him. That fact alone must beg the even deeper question: Can NBA basketball really be a sport, given the above-mentioned situation?""

6/20/2006 4:51:35 PM

does that explain dirk nowitzki, a 90% ft shooter, missing an important free throw?

shaq's hands are just too big...imagine shooting with a mini ball...thats what its like for shaq with a regular ball

6/20/2006 4:58:19 PM

Quote :

"I want to say something about Dwayne Wade, but I fear I may get called for a foul."

6/20/2006 5:02:40 PM

Wow. This is the guy that whines and whines about the Heat's style of play depending on fouls getting called.

Well when you attack the basket and draw contact, rather than shoot jump shots, you will shoot more free throws. Don't get upset that the Mavs can't stop Wade without fouling.

6/20/2006 5:04:15 PM

have you been watching this shit?

6/20/2006 5:05:52 PM

^

6/20/2006 5:06:14 PM

^^^^^ That's an interesting theory - it does always seem like he's struggling to position the ball well when he's on the FT line. The only question I have though is there are guys like Nowitski who probably have similar sized hands and they can shoot better than 2/12. It is just lack of skill in my opinion, much like the same way I can't shoot 50% from the 3 pt line even though I'm probably close to the same size as someone like Michael Redd or Steve Kerr (about 6 ft - I don't really know how tall each of those guys are, but I'm 6 ft).

[Edited on June 20, 2006 at 5:07 PM. Reason : ^^]

6/20/2006 5:07:13 PM

Regardless of the "big hand" problem that Shaq has(which, btw, is the exact reason why Dr. J claims he sucked at shooting jump shots - meat hooks for hands), Rick Barry offered to teach Shaq how to shoot FT's like him while Shaq was at LSU. Shaq declined the offer by insisting that that style of shooting was "for sissies".

6/20/2006 5:58:55 PM

haha

sissies that like to shoot > 90% from the stripe

6/20/2006 6:00:52 PM

Wade has probably benefitted more from refs in his first few years than anyone ever. I liked the guy at Marquette but have grown to hate him in the NBA. He looks like he has worked his ass off to make himself a great player, but a big part of it is the calls he gets. He doesn't need them, but I guess they couldn't compare him to Jordan w/o helping some.

I was sick to read about 3 articles of how he was yet another "Game 5 Hero". He had a very average game. He shot 11-for-28, and should have been more attempts than that, but the fouls made it look better.

He creates contact a lot of times. The foul should be on him in those cases. A guy jumps straight up and he shoots into them. He's fast so he just dribbles into a guy who's not guarding him. Game 5 was a joke. Would have gone somewhat undetected, but Heat couldn't shoot FT's. If they had, they would have easily won and no one could say "fix". But Heat missed so many, that refs had to keep calling fouls.

6/20/2006 6:45:36 PM

on wade's last drive...they shouldnt have called the foul

it was a touch foul...and with 20 seconds left in a 1 point game, you dont call a touch foul...you let the players determine the outcome

also, josh howard is a dumbass

6/20/2006 6:53:19 PM

I find myself agreeing with this article

Quote :

"First, Dwyane Wade shot as many free throws (25) as the entire Dallas team in Game 5. I just don't see how there's any way this can happen in a fairly-called game."

fucking ridiculous

6/20/2006 6:57:01 PM

this series is bullshit,

and I enjoyed reading and agreeing with most of this article

6/20/2006 8:06:54 PM

Bunch of Mavs cock gobblers all over this thread and in the media. If your team would step and quit choking, you wouldn't have to be making all of these excuses. Cry me a fucking river.

6/20/2006 8:10:12 PM

6/20/2006 8:20:46 PM

^^ typical response from a supporter of the accused

6/20/2006 8:41:12 PM

First, ya'll are dumb as fuck if you don't think Jordan, Kobe, Lebron, etc. don't get the same call at the end of OT that Wade got. Second...there was contact...there was contact on his leg and his arm. Was it hard??? Not really. Would it have gotten called if Jerry Stackhouse or Jason Terry been shooting?? Possibly not. But Dwayne Wade has earned that call. People bitching about that call seriously need to grow up.

Bitch about the timeout call all you want...but Avery Johnson and Josh Howard still fucked up. And Josh Howard fucked up by missing two free throws. And Dirk fucked up AGAIN but missing one of two. If your boys would step up, this series would be over.

The only valid argument Mavs fans and the media MIGHT have is the free throw differential. But the Mavs don't go to the basket near as hard as the Heat does. Wade goes through his jump shooting streaks...but a majority of the time he is driving hard to the basket. Shaq gets fouled about half the time he gets the ball down low. And then there's the whole "hack-a-Shaq." And when you average all of the games out, the Heat have only averaged 7.6 more free throws than the Heat. Which isn't much when you consider how many times Shaq gets fouled and how many times Wade drives to the basket.

So basically.....quit your bitchin.

[Edited on June 20, 2006 at 9:02 PM. Reason : .]

6/20/2006 9:00:57 PM

Quote :

"First, ya'll are dumb as fuck if you don't think Jordan, Kobe, Lebron, etc. don't get the same call at the end of OT that Wade got."

no one said that

Quote :

"Second...there was contact...there was contact on his leg and his arm. Was it hard??? Not really. Would it have gotten called if Jerry Stackhouse or Jason Terry been shooting?? Possibly not. But Dwayne Wade has earned that call."

that's the dumbest thing i've ever read. the refs are supposed to be impartial. you dont "earn" calls. and because jordan, kobe and lebron would have gotten the call doesn't make it the right call.

Quote :

"Wade goes through his jump shooting streaks...but a majority of the time he is driving hard to the basket."

creating the contact himself by just jumping into the air crashing into whoever is around

Quote :

"Shaq gets fouled about half the time he gets the ball down low."

and fouls his defender the other half. but its shaq right, he's "earned" the right to not get called for fouls.

Quote :

"the Heat have only averaged 7.6 more free throws than the Heat."

check the score difference of the games the heat have won and the free throws in those games, minus game 4 of course

[Edited on June 20, 2006 at 9:23 PM. Reason : .]

6/20/2006 9:22:55 PM

Quote :

"you dont "earn" calls."

Welcome to the real world buddy.

Quote :

"minus game 4 of course"

Well...ummm...the free throw differential isn't that bad minus game 5....

See how that works??

6/20/2006 9:29:34 PM

Quote :

"Welcome to the real world buddy. "

no matter how much you say that it doesn't change the fact that the foul was complete horseshit.

6/20/2006 9:31:47 PM

^to Mavs fans.

There was contact while he was shooting. It wasn't a hack....but it wasn't exactly touch foul either. He got his lower body hit on one side and his arm hit on the other. I'd go as much to say 75% of the time that call is made.

How bout you screen shot experts put the pictures on here and disect it like you do every other questionable call.

6/20/2006 9:45:00 PM

i'm not a mavs fan. im a basketball fan though, and to call that a foul, from half court away from the play while 2 other officials were closer, during the last seconds of the game, was a travesty.

obviously, being a heat fan, you're not in a position to admit it, which i can understand.

but a large majority of people disagree with you and the call

[Edited on June 20, 2006 at 9:50 PM. Reason : .]

6/20/2006 9:48:30 PM

^^ every replay shown was indicative of, at worst, a no-call
(ie, "let em play")


YOU DON'T LET FREE THROWS DETERMINE THE FINAL MARGIN OF A GAME. They can determine the outcome (ie, "the mavs missed 8 more free throws and lost by 5") but you do NOT put a player at the fucking free throw line to either win or lose the game for his team. that should be settled in the regular course of play.

Quote :

"creating the contact himself by just jumping into the air crashing into whoever is around"

bingo

he's been doing this shit since he arrived in the NBA. other people do/have done it (reggie miller's pump fake and lean into the airborne defender immediately comes to mind) but that doesn't make it any more right. the league needs to SERIOUSLY revisit this issue.

[Edited on June 20, 2006 at 9:54 PM. Reason : fuck dwyane wade]

[Edited on June 20, 2006 at 9:55 PM. Reason : fuck]

6/20/2006 9:53:39 PM

Quote :

"it was a touch foul...and with 20 seconds left in a 1 point game, you dont call a touch foul...you let the players determine the outcome"

It wasn't a touch foul. It was a blocking foul before Nowitski hit him, but he was fouled.

Also, I don't think you should ignore fouls because there are 20 seconds left in a tight game.

6/20/2006 9:58:28 PM

Quote :

"obviously, being a heat fan, you're not in a position to admit it, which i can understand."

I don't really like the Heat that much...but I like them more than the Mavs. You obviously like the Mavs more than the Heat.

Quote :

"^^ every replay shown was indicative of, at worst, a no-call"

I'll go ahead and say this and let's end this argument about this call. I've listened to the media talk about this shit all day. I've found out that most media guys who picked the Mavs to win, have called it a bad call. Guys who actually picked the Heat to win (like Wilbon on PTI), called it an obvious foul. I'm cheering for the Heat, I think it was a good call (I'd like to think even if I was impartial that i still think it would be a foul...there was contact, it affected his shot...therefore it should be a foul).

If you really want to debate it more...put the screenshots up. Every replay I saw showed contact on his lower and upper body. I don't really know how you don't call that a foul. But that's my opinion...and you have yours.

6/20/2006 10:26:16 PM

Quote :

"You obviously like the Mavs more than the Heat."

just to set the record straight, i have no preference between the two teams.

i do hate gary payton though

[Edited on June 20, 2006 at 10:30 PM. Reason : a]

6/20/2006 10:30:24 PM

^^ without having ever seen the article for which this thread was made,
I dislike the Mavs a whole bunch, and didn't care one way or the other for the Heat. But that isn't the point. Team loyalty aside, when it comes down to the Finals I like to see good games. I want the players to win games, not the referees. Miami has already benefitted twice from the latter.

I'm not going to find screenshots for the sake of making a point. In the heat of that moment, it was a shitty call. Dwyane Wade had gotten away with a backcourt and a pushoff on the same play (not to mention his recklessness throughout the game, the series, the season, and his career... but I won't go there), which only magnifies the speciousness of the fucking foul call. ON THAT PLAY, he should not have even made it that far. If you're going to skip two easy calls, don't be the guy to make a questionable call from so far away from the play. And the contact thing is a moot point because Wade does that shit every drive, and the defense is in a no-win situation. They either have to slack off and give him the lane or attempt to do what defense is designed to do - DEFEND THE BASKET - and get the foul called against them almost every single time.

6/20/2006 11:51:16 PM

the refs determined game 5 instead of letting the players determine it

call touch fouls all game and send wade to the line 20+ times

but in a 1-point game with 20 seconds left, THE PLAYERS HAVE TO MAKE SHOTS, NOT GET BAILED OUT AT THE FREE THROW LINE

6/21/2006 10:25:02 AM

The reffing thing is really interesting, but what about the first point he makes?

Is it bad for the NBA to have the teams like the Suns, Spurs, and Mavs(by the by, the games between these three teams were the best thing about the NBA in the last 10 years at least) come up short while the Superstar + All-Star + Supporting Cast shows up as being the winning formula?

6/21/2006 10:47:39 AM

Quote :

"Dwyane Wade had gotten away with a backcourt"

You need to quit listening to what a couple of pissed of media people say. Only several people are mentioning that there was a backcourt violation....and they are doing it to bolster their "the 5th game was rigged!!!" agenda. And the pushoff was weak. No way you call that...he was being triple-teamed and Jason Terry's momentum was already taking him to the sideline.


And as far as this point goes....

Quote :

"Is it bad for the NBA to have the teams like the Suns, Spurs, and Mavs(by the by, the games between these three teams were the best thing about the NBA in the last 10 years at least) come up short while the Superstar + All-Star + Supporting Cast shows up as being the winning formula?"

It's bullshit. Dallas should have won this series to begin with if they weren't such fucking chokers. But the Heat won't win it next year, they're going to be too old and other teams will be just as good. A good "team" will win it next year...the Mavs, the Suns with Amare back, a re-tooled Piston's team, etc. The only "superstar" driven team that might win it next year is the Cavs on the back of Lebron if they give him some help and he gets that much better next year. Unless the Lakers make a HUGE offseason acquisition, they won't win it either.

I think the guy is making this ridiculous point because he's pissed that the Mavs lost (were losing at the time it was written).

6/21/2006 11:01:03 AM

this series showed me that dwayne wade gets more calls than Lebron

and lebron gets a redunkulous amount of calls

6/21/2006 11:23:21 AM

^^except that he clearly states he has no ill will or money toward either team

6/21/2006 11:46:58 AM

Yeah...I read that and really don't believe it. Not just because he's bitching so much...but because people rarely don't lean to one side, even just a little bit.

6/21/2006 11:48:46 AM

^^^^I don't know. I think there's something to this. I went out of my way to see the Mavs and(to a lesser extent) the Suns play this year. I don't have a particular affection for those franchises(or any NBA franchise for that matter), but I like watching teams play team ball. I liked seeing the extra pass and a halfcourt offense more creative than "Superstar X dribbles around looking for a one-on-one matchup or a Wade-like barrel roll to the basket."

So if we're going to see more Iverson's Team and Kobe's Team and less Mavs and Spurs, there's less reason for me to watch.

[Edited on June 21, 2006 at 11:52 AM. Reason : ^'s]

6/21/2006 11:52:00 AM

Quote :

"So if we're going to see more Iverson's Team and Kobe's Team and less Mavs and Spurs, there's less reason for me to watch. "

First thing...just because the Heat won the championship doesn't mean that these "teams" are going to win it from here on out. Didn't the Pistons "team" demolish Shaq and Kobe a couple years ago and almost beat the Spurs again last year (and the Spurs are a pretty good "team"...not just Duncan)???

Second...teams are always going to need that dominant type of player anyways (with the exception of Detroit). If Dirk would have been the top 3 NBA player that he is, the Mavs would have won the series. The Suns, with Nash (2-time MVP) and Amare (ridiculously dominant), have a good chance of winning it. BTW...how has superstar T-Mac faired in the playoffs so far?? And Allen Iverson made it to the Finals once and got blown out 4-1....and he's struggled or not made it to the playoffs since. What did Carmelo do this year?? Jason Richardson?? Gilbert Arenas?? There are three players that can carry their teams to the Finals: Wade, Lebron, and Kobe (I was going to say Dirk...but Chokewitski still has to prove more). At the most, you'll see one of those guys with a team in the Conference Finals.

Besides, you said you like watching the Mavs and the Suns play....well they both made the Western Conference Finals...so what's your point?? If Amare comes back healthy next year and the Mavs bring everyone back, you'll probably see the Suns, Mavs, and Pistons in the Final Four again next year (which is...gasp...what happened this year). Of course, there will be a Lebron/Wade type team in there too...but that is a given, because those guys are amazing players and they will carry their teams far.

But I think this is a knee-jerk reaction. Again...the Mavs should have won the series to begin with if they haven't choked and someone would probably make another knee-jerk reaction and say that "THIS IS THE END OF SUPERSTAR LED TEAMS!!!1!!!11!!"

6/21/2006 12:04:23 PM

Quote :

"But Dwayne Wade has earned that call. People bitching about that call seriously need to grow up."

Quite possibly the dumbest thing to come out of your mouth so far in the thread (but I'm not done reading yet).

6/21/2006 12:18:53 PM

Quote :

"BTW...how has superstar T-Mac faired in the playoffs so far?? "

very well when he wasnt the only good player on the team

Quote :

"And Allen Iverson made it to the Finals once and got blown out 4-1....and he's struggled or not made it to the playoffs since."

right, b/c the philly management isnt at all interested in getting him a supporting cast

Quote :

"What did Carmelo do this year??"

carmelo hasnt made the ascent to the superstar level yet and his team is absolute garbage

Quote :

"Jason Richardson??"

you cant seriously think jrich belongs in this comparison?

Quote :

"Gilbert Arenas??"

gilbert is on the fringe of the superstar level and still has made it to the 2nd round last year and w/in pts of the 2nd round this year.



and yes, the mavs and suns do each have some great players, but their style of play is completely diff than the heat/cavs/lakers


and just so you know, there is more to nba basketball than the playoffs. and simmons himself says the same thing you were tyring to say ie arenas, jrich, etc: "This recipe would be boring if it weren't for Wade, a dynamic talent and the most consistent crunch-time scorer since Jordan."

his point is that instead of teams copying the 3 or so teams (the pistons dont fit, they play a diff style altogether) right now that play fast paced, they will say, oh this other formula does still work so there is no need to follow the new trend.

[Edited on June 21, 2006 at 12:28 PM. Reason : a]

6/21/2006 12:24:24 PM

I think the point is that teams go with what works. For the Mavs, Suns, Spurs, and Pistons(can't believe I left them out of the discussion) - they won't change much of what they were doing because it was successful right up until they either clashed with each other or the eventual champion team.

But for teams that are looking to get themselves on that level, they see what won a championship. And it's a lot easier for a GM to tell himself that he just needs to hire a superstar and a sidekick rather than actually construct a team.

6/21/2006 12:26:12 PM

Quote :

"Quite possibly the dumbest thing to come out of your mouth so far in the thread (but I'm not done reading yet)."

Then why don't you argue the point. Tell me how one of the top 5 players in the league, gets his lower body hit, his upper body hit, and doesn't "earn the call." It wasn't a hard foul, but it was a foul. It probably gets called because it was Dwyane Wade and he's earned that. Please argue against that, other than saying "it wasn't a foul," because it was...a soft one maybe, but a foul nonetheless.

6/21/2006 12:30:20 PM

He's saying that if it's a foul then anyone should get that call. "Earning" a call is total bullshit. If it's a foul then everyone from Brent Barry up to Wade should get it called. In an evenly reffed game, there is no such thing as an "earned call."

6/21/2006 12:33:00 PM

Quote :

"very well when he wasnt the only good player on the team "

How many time has McGrady gotten out of the first round of the playoffs???

And I'm not putting Richardson, Arenas, Anthony, etc. in the superstar league....I'm just arguing against what the guy in the article said. In case you forgot, this is what was written:

Quote :

"Here's what happens if Miami wins the title: New Jersey will say to themselves, "Hey, maybe this could happen to us with Vince Carter"; Washington will say the same about Arenas; Boston with Pierce; G-State with Richardson; the Lakers with Kobe; New Team X with Iverson."

I'm saying that won't happen...that's why my points were made.

6/21/2006 12:33:23 PM

Quote :

"If it's a foul then everyone from Brent Barry up to Wade should get it called."

I'm sorry, but that's not how the league works. Heck, that's not how the NCAA works (hello Duke, Tyler Hansbrough, etc.). That's just something you're going to have to deal with when you watch the game. If you can't deal with it, then I suggest you not watch any organized sports in general.

6/21/2006 12:34:51 PM

^^but you saying those guys cant win does nothing to support or deny his argument that the management will think they can anyway

and tmac floundered for 5 years w/out another good player, his first year w/ a good player he singlehandedly almost beat dallas.


^except when you have good referees, that is how it works.

[Edited on June 21, 2006 at 12:38 PM. Reason : a]

6/21/2006 12:37:52 PM

If that's "not how the league works" then you can't complain when people are disputing whether a foul is a foul or not.

6/21/2006 12:41:46 PM

Quote :

"Tell me how one of the top 5 players in the league, gets his lower body hit, his upper body hit, and doesn't "earn the call." It wasn't a hard foul, but it was a foul."

It was also a foul when Wade used hs shoulder to bulldoze his defender across the lane to create an open shot in the final minute. It was also a foul when Wade grabbed hos defender by the shorts/jersey and yanked him to the side when he made hos cut on the last play. It was also a backcourt violation that should have been a turnover when Wade took the ball to start the final play of the game. In 30 seconds of play time there were 3 mistakes by Wade that would have changed the game but were not called and 1 phantom fould called against Dallas that saved the Heat's ass... total bullshit.

6/21/2006 12:42:10 PM

Quote :

"I'm sorry, but that's not how the league works. Heck, that's not how the NCAA works (hello Duke, Tyler Hansbrough, etc.). That's just something you're going to have to deal with when you watch the game. If you can't deal with it, then I suggest you not watch any organized sports in general."

THAT'S THE WHOLE FUCKING POINT OF THE ARGUMENT YOU DIPSHIT, AND PRECISELY WHY CUBAN GOT FINED $DALLAS.

6/21/2006 12:44:23 PM

the fact is

wade may have been bumped, but he wasnt bumped by nowitzki and that is who they called the foul on

the other fact is

instead of being called by someone who actually may have a had a clear look at the play, it was called by a ref by halfcourt


obviously, dallas could have done some thing differently or made a few more shots and still won, but you cant do like stern and say "oh but he missed those foul shots" when people talk about the refs. yea, he missed the foul shots, that is an example of a player deciding a game. yea, wade missed that layup, that is an example of a player deciding a game. yea, the refs made a few no-calls and one questionable call at the end, that is a ref deciding a game.

6/21/2006 12:47:04 PM