me and my friend were looking in/talking through the the n&o and he butts in and asks us this.

in the current conflict,

~66-72% of casualties caused by group A have been civilians

~38-40% of casualties caused by group B have been civilians

(i looked up the numbers to check if he was bs)

which group is the terrorists?....do you have any spare change i'm trying to get a little somethin to eat i fought in vietnam broke my leg and couldnt work anymore?

8/4/2006 3:53:15 PM

did ya give him any?

8/4/2006 3:54:58 PM

do jews strap bombs to themselves and kill innocent people in car bombs?

8/4/2006 3:58:23 PM

did you ask him what qualifies a civilian? do you have to wear a uniform to be a non-civilian or being a memeber of hezbollah enough?

8/4/2006 3:59:37 PM

^^ No, they use rockets.

8/4/2006 4:01:20 PM

^^^but does that make the innocent Palestinians they kill any more deserving of death?

[Edited on August 4, 2006 at 4:01 PM. Reason : ^^]

8/4/2006 4:01:33 PM

some people got it confused. he was talking about the brand new israel-lebanon conflict and i went and got those numbers off bbc to get the correct% and check if he was lying (i was pretty sure he was). he basically said something like 50% vs 75%.

but ya, hezbollah is group B

8/4/2006 4:05:25 PM

What is the source of your ?

Have you been watching the news?

And Israel's percentage is coming from a far greater number than Hezbollah's.

8/4/2006 4:18:31 PM

i've watched a little bit of the coverage and got the idea that hezbollah was just lofting missiles into haifa while israel has been strategically bombing hezbollah targets only with a few civilian accidents as exceptions so this numbers never made sense to me.

but i also thought iraq was well on the way to a strong democracy until yesturday so my knowledge is useless.

^and wtf?

Quote :

"And Israel's percentage is coming from a far greater number than Hezbollah's."

i thought percentage was percentage no matter what total it came from? isnt that the point of it. to compare ratios of different scales?

[Edited on August 4, 2006 at 4:31 PM. Reason : i did google search found bbc articles with totals then took ((total-combatant)/total) x100]

8/4/2006 4:25:38 PM

Wait wait, you mean Hezbofuck has managed to kill actual military personnel?!?!?

8/4/2006 4:36:07 PM

^I mean its not like Hezbollah was a succesful military force before this.

(thats sarcasm btw)

8/4/2006 5:50:25 PM

^ No, I'm just shocked, usually the only way for terrorists to kill military personnel is to blow up a city block. They must be getting better at their work.

8/4/2006 5:55:45 PM

i just dont think hezbollah should give the jews any reason to bomb them

"dont start no shit wont be no shit"

/lil jon

8/4/2006 6:39:38 PM

Quote :

"Wait wait, you mean Hezbofuck has managed to kill actual military personnel?!?!?"

Dude have you been following the news at all?

The Zionists have sophisticated bomb shelters equipped with all the amenities, and they wail loud air raid sirens when hezbolla fires. That's why only around 15-20 civilians have been killed by Hezbolla, the rest (35-40) being soldiers, who because they are out in the open, are at more risk, unlike the civilians, who are chillin watching TV and eating hummus in their bomb shelters.

Whereas on the other side, of the nearly 600 people killed, some 80% have been civilians, and around half of them children.

[Edited on August 4, 2006 at 7:19 PM. Reason : ]

8/4/2006 7:18:55 PM

Quote :

"i thought percentage was percentage no matter what total it came from? isnt that the point of it. to compare ratios of different scales?"

If all you care about is the percentage, sure.

What I'm saying is this:

Let's say I punched four nuns and six child molesters. You punched 70 nuns and 30 child molesters.

Sure, it's a shocking contrast to say that you punched 70% nuns compared to my measly 40%, seeing as I have quite a reputation as a nun-puncher. It should be even more shocking to know that, looking beyond the percentages, on an absolute scale you punched FAR more nuns than I did. That's what I'm saying. What a horrible fucking metaphor.

8/4/2006 7:43:31 PM

^

But in the current conflict, doesn't matter what you look at. Israel has killed far more civilians whether you look at ratios or actual numbers.

Ratio: 2-3 times as more

Actual numbers: 20-30 times as more

8/4/2006 7:53:31 PM

That's what I'm saying. That's what I said originally, and that's what I horribly restated as well.

It is even more shocking if you look at the absolute numbers.

8/4/2006 8:33:25 PM

please forgive me, but just because Hezbollah performs really poorly when it tries to kill people, innocent people mind you, doesn't make it any less a terrorist organization. Israel, not surprisingly, is much better at killing people. That doesn't make Israel a terrorist organization. It just makes Hezbollah shitty at killing people.

Is Israel wanted to kill people, they would have killed a HELL of a lot more people than they've killed so far.

8/5/2006 12:52:40 AM

Latest figures:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14163530/

Quote :

"As of Friday the Associated Press count showed at least 559 Lebanese have been killed, including 482 civilians confirmed dead by the Health Ministry, 27 Lebanese soldiers and at least 50 Hezbollah guerrillas."

Quote :

"Since the fighting started, 74 Israelis have been killed, 44 soldiers and 30 civilians. More than 300,000 Israelis have fled their homes in the north, Israeli officials said."

So Israel has killed 91% civilians and Lebanese soldiers, and just 9% Hezbollah fighters.

While Hezbollah has killed 40% civilians, and 60% Israeli soldiers.

Come on Israel, I think you can do better than that

But of course, that's not what Israel wants. It is punishing the Lebanese people, so they will stand up against Hezbollah and force their government to kick them out, but all the carnage has had the opposite effect.

The Lebanese have casr aside their ethnic and religious differences and hatred for Hezbollah, and have actually started supporting Hezbollah.

Wow, another miscalculation by the Israeli/US war machines (Iraq being the other one).

The deaths of nearly 600 Lebanese people is bad, but the real tragedy is this:

Quote :

"Lebanese Prime Minister Fuad Saniora said that 1 million people — or about a quarter of Lebanon’s population — have fled the fighting. Others estimate some 800,000 Lebanese have been made refugees."

And the accompanying widespread destruction of houses and infrastructure, to the tune of billions of dollars.

8/5/2006 3:08:11 AM

Quote :

"^ No, I'm just shocked, usually the only way for terrorists to kill military personnel is to blow up a city block. They must be getting better sloppy at their work."

Fixed

Why not include the following factors in the attempt to slant reality?

1) Intent. Which group wants to kill civilians?

2) Availability. Which group has amassed their military in such a way as to make them vunerable targets and which military hides in civilian population? Do you think Hezbollah would have a better or worse military/civilian mortality ratio if Israel didn't put their troops on the front lines? Do you think Israel would have a better or worse military/civilian mortality ratio if Hezbollah did put their 'troops' on the front lines?

8/5/2006 8:54:59 AM

^ Fuck that shit. If you cannot get at the criminals without killing innocents then you don't get the criminals, that is how a police force operates, and I feel that is how Israel should be operating, especially since it is doing so in someone elses country.

This system has its drawbacks, more missiles are going to fall in Israel than otherwise would. But it is the same principle that makes us let criminals go free because a search violated their rights. Sure, in the long run more people will be murdered by repeat offenders than otherwise would, but this is how a civilized justice system operates.

[Edited on August 5, 2006 at 9:08 AM. Reason : .,.]

8/5/2006 9:06:09 AM

^Feel free to reference anywhere in my post where I said they should accept high levels of collateral damage to get at Hezbollah. Israel is attacking Lebanon, you aren't going to change that fact by saying they shouldn't.

All I was doing was offering up a few questions to consider to try to level the playing field a bit. Truth of the matter is that if Hezbollah amassed their rag tag group of terrorists like Israel has amassed their army the numbers would be very, very different.

EDIT: Plus the whole notion of which group has the most favorable civilian/military mortality ratio as being on the moral high ground is pretty silly to begin with. Both camps are far from any moral high ground.

[Edited on August 5, 2006 at 9:22 AM. Reason : -]

8/5/2006 9:15:47 AM

You don't think it says something that for every civilian Hezbollah has killed, Israel has killed 16 in return?

8/5/2006 11:37:23 AM

This is probably thread number 2000 of this, for every 1 new thread made about the subject 16 die!

8/5/2006 11:52:39 AM

Quote :

"that for every civilian Hezbollah has killed, Israel has killed 16 in return?"

And both sides have killed the same number of enemy soldiers!!!

8/5/2006 11:56:00 AM

Considering france just orderd a side or ceasefire, this gives hezbollah some time to reposition their rockets.

8/5/2006 12:20:05 PM

I think the lesson here should be....Dont invite terrorists to your neighborhood. If they come there shoot them or blow them up yourselves. THe Isralies arent just bombing random neighborhoods.

In war sometimes innocent people die. People die in general. Im sorry it happens but the casulties we see in todays war are nothing.

[Edited on August 6, 2006 at 9:19 PM. Reason : dd]

8/6/2006 9:17:57 PM

Ok, so like these Israelis killed by Hezbollah are where...in Lebannon right?

How many fucking Israeli civilians are there, where the fighting is going on? Not many...but there are tons of Lebanese civilians running back and forth and mixed in with Hezbollah fighters.


This statistic is like saying that the Germans were more humane to American's during WWII because less American civilians were killed than German civilians.

You have to look at where the war is being fought.

8/7/2006 5:47:34 PM

so hezbollah should bomb lebanon?

i also saw somebody ask why lebanon isnt fighting hezbollah. do you guys even watch the news? lebanon is considering joining hezbollah against israel. why would they start a civil war for nothing?

theres probobly gonna end up being us or nato troops in there fighting hezbollah.

8/7/2006 5:51:57 PM

the question was asked in the context of the statement that the lebanese military were merely bystanders in the conflict.

8/7/2006 5:53:24 PM

so far they are. i just heard on fox news that the government is gonna vote tommorow if they will join against israel like they bluffed and said they would if israel invaded.

8/7/2006 5:58:39 PM

so, the question is, why are they bystanders? Why aren't they fighting an illegal militia that dragged their nation into an unnecessary conflict with Israel?

Obviously, the answer is - they are NOT actually bystanders - they are complicit participants by virtue of their inaction.

8/7/2006 6:00:13 PM

Quote :

"they are complicit participants by virtue of their inaction."

Maybe so, but this is not necessarily so. There are many countries in our world with standing illegal militias, most of which are not voluntarily tolerated. In many cases the combined military forces of the country's government are insufficient to defeat the militia, so they don't try.

If this is lebanon's situation then the fact that the militia has sparked a war with Israel doesn't change the fact that Lebanon's military is inept and incapable of defeating Hezbofuckala.

Lebanon's only hope, it seems if this is so, would be to ally with Israel in hopes that the combined military force would be sufficient to push the illegal militia underground. I leave it to you to theorize why this eventually was not considered.

8/7/2006 7:10:25 PM

equivocations and rationalizations FTW

[Edited on August 7, 2006 at 7:40 PM. Reason : s]

8/7/2006 7:40:01 PM

but they are considering helping hezbollah. they are allied with them they are part of the leb government so i dont see where you guys are coming from. do you even watch the news?

8/8/2006 1:43:53 AM

8/8/2006 9:01:18 AM