http://money.cnn.com/2006/08/08/news/companies/pluggedin_gunther.fortune/index.htm

Quote :

"Why Wal-Mart wants to sell ethanol E85 is available at only a tiny fraction of gas stations. But Fortune's Marc Gunther says the giant retailer is poised to change that. NEW YORK (Fortune) -- More than 5 million vehicles on U.S. roads today can run on ethanol - a renewable fuel that comes from corn - as well as gasoline. General Motors (Charts), Ford (Charts) and DaimlerChrysler (Charts) recently announced plans to double their annual production of so-called flex fuel vehicles to two million cars and trucks by 2010. It's the single largest commitment to renewable fuels in the history of the auto industry - a good move for the automakers, and for the planet, too. That's because running cars and trucks on E85, a blend of 85 percent ethanol and 15 percent gasoline, could turn out to be a cost-effective way to reduce the carbon emissions that cause global warming and curb our dependence on imported oil. There's just one big problem. Only about 800 service stations in the United States, out of a total of 168,000, pump E85. There's not a single E85 pump, for example, in all of New England. You won't be surprised to learn that the big oil companies are not, as a rule, interested in selling E85. But Wal-Mart (Charts) is. The giant retailer is considering selling ethanol at the eight stations that it operates at Wal-Mart Stores and at about 380 more that it runs as part of its Sam's Clubs division. It could also decide to sell ethanol in a partnership with Murphy Oil Corp. (Charts), which operates about 946 gas stations in Wal-Mart parking lots, and there's no reason why Wal-Mart couldn't sell E85 - which it calls "America's Fuel" - at the rest of its 3,000 U.S. stores. "Our goal would be to make E-85 available across the U.S.," Rich Ezell, senior strategy manager of fuel at Wal-Mart, said recently. Why does Wal-Mart want to get into the transportation fuel business? Several reasons. First, selling ethanol could be a new profit center for Wal-Mart, since the retailing business is wide-open. It's also a way for the company to help its customers save money; the less money they pour into the tank, the more they have to spend at Wal-Mart. Finally, Wal-Mart's interest in alternative fuels like ethanol comes as part of its sweeping efforts to adopt business practices that are better for the environment. To guide its efforts, Wal-Mart has organized more than a dozen "sustainable value networks" that are composed of suppliers, environmentalists, industry experts and government officials. The company brought an impressive group of movers-and-shakers to the kickoff meeting of its alternative fuels network in Washington last May. Participants included representatives of GM, Ford and DaimlerChrysler, the National Corn Growers Association, ethanol-makers such as Cargill, Blue Fire Ethanol and Iogen, consulting firms Green Strategies, BluSkye and the Rocky Mountain Institute, and nonprofits Conservation International, Environmental Defense, the Natural Resources Defense Fund, the World Wildlife Fund and the Worldwatch Institute. For most of a day, they discussed how Wal-Mart could help promote alternative fuels. Afterwards, one longtime ethanol advocate told me that Wal-Mart - if it agrees to distribute E85 - could be a catalyst to making ethanol a mainstream alternative to gasoline for millions of Americans. "That would be a complete game-changer," said Reid Detchon, the executive director of the Energy Future Coalition. "Everybody knows where the local Wal-Mart is. You would immediately know where to buy E85." But Wal-Mart isn't ready to commit to ethanol yet, insiders say. Before doing so, the company needs to feel confident that it will have access to ample supplies of ethanol, at a price competitive with gasoline. That's a complicated matter - prices for ethanol spiked this summer, even as lots of new supply is coming into the market. Wal-Mart is also waiting for ethanol dispensers to get certified by the Underwriters Laboratory, which tests products for safety. Some other key issues need to be resolved before millions of Americans regularly fill their tanks with ethanol. (For more, see How To Beat the High Cost of Gasoline. Forever!) Many experts believe that so long as ethanol comes from corn kernels or sugar cane, using ethanol for fuel will create stresses on the world's food supply; they favor what's called cellulosic ethanol, which can be made from prairie switchgrass, corn husks or other waste products. Mass production of cellulosic ethanol isn't expected for a couple of years. Transporting ethanol from farm country to population centers is another challenge. There's also debate over the future of a 51-cent a gallon government subsidy for ethanol. Consumers also need to learn more about the fuel. The auto industry's working on that. You've probably seen GM's clever "Live Green, Go Yellow" ad campaign, which can be found online. GM's also been trying to help build an ethanol infrastructure. In California, Texas, Pennsylvania and several Midwestern states, the automaker has helped bring together ethanol refiners, governments and independent service stations to sell E85. Those selling the fuel include Meijer supermarket chains and the Sheetz convenience store chain. The National Ethanol Vehicle Coalition keeps a list of E85 stations online. Philip J. Lampert, the executive director, says the number of stations has doubled in the past two years. "It's still just a drop in the bucket, but we're making significant progress," he says. All this leaves people like Reid Detchon - who has worked on ethanol issues since the 1980s, and served in the energy department in the first Bush administration - feeling like ethanol's moment may finally be here. Particularly if Wal-Mart gets on board, Detchon says: "If oil stays at anything like these prices, I think ethanol will grow as fast as the farmers can produce it. We are on the cusp of a fundamental change.""

Can't wait to see the line of confused liberals who can't decide whether or not to keep boycotting Wal-Mart when the tank runs low, or the line of confused conservatives who can't decide whether to invade Illinois or Iowa next.

8/9/2006 3:08:13 PM

i was going to post this earlier, then got distracted and decided to go take my car to get inspected instead.

if wal-mart shareholders keep pushing the company towards more responsible business practices (as they supposedly have), then i have no problem with them going forward with ethanol. however, it takes a ton of corn to produce such a fuel. if we rely solely on corn for the fuel, then we risk the chance of eating into food supply corn and drastically reducing agricultural exports.

8/9/2006 3:16:43 PM

who cares...the food america produces should be consumed by americans anyways

its the american way

8/9/2006 3:26:07 PM

wait a minute

i hate the evil corporations like walmart who are out for their evil "profits"

but i support cleaner fuel sources and deny that alternative energy companies have any motive except to make the environment cleaner

this really contradicts my opinions on oil companies...oh man, i'll wait and see what jon stewart has to say about it before i make up my mind

8/9/2006 3:27:07 PM

i was about to say something, but then i realized that he ^^ is the "you are smrt" guy.

^thanks for fucking up another thread. noone ever said anything remotely along those lines.

suspend this moron.

V it takes a shit ton of corn to fill up an average tank. i think i heard a a year's supply for a few humans to fill a 25 gal. tank. might be wrong, ill look it up.

[Edited on August 9, 2006 at 3:29 PM. Reason : .]

8/9/2006 3:27:48 PM

I can see your point about cutting into the food supply, but if ethanol became popularized elsewhere wouldn't that be a more lucrative export than just corn?

8/9/2006 3:27:50 PM

Maybe we can finally cut farm subsidies now

8/9/2006 3:28:46 PM

so whats the type of fuel thats like really healthy for the environment but requires a ton of water to operate?

8/9/2006 3:32:20 PM

^^Farm Subsidies

They make me so mad

8/9/2006 4:14:56 PM

Quote :

"if we rely solely on corn for the fuel, then we risk the chance of eating into food supply corn and drastically reducing agricultural exports."

A ridiculous statement. The owners of the corn will sell it to the highest bidder on the Chicago Mercantile Exchange. Since there is really no substitute for corn and plenty of substituted for Ethanol I suspect Food Lion will be able to outbid Enron any day.

Lower gas prices, fight big corn
http://www.thewolfweb.com/message_topic.aspx?topic=413170
"Super-efficient Brazil now sells ethanol at the equivalent of $25 dollars a barrel, less than half the cost of crude."

[Edited on August 9, 2006 at 4:35 PM. Reason : sp]

8/9/2006 4:35:19 PM

Quote :

"if we rely solely on corn for the fuel, then we risk the chance of eating into food supply corn and drastically reducing agricultural exports. "

Our country produces FAR more food than we need or use. The government pretty much buys it though through farm subsidies.

8/10/2006 1:15:46 AM

ha this is the best thing Wal-Mart has done in years. Maybe this will get the ball rolling on different shit to put in my car.

and why does Treetwista always gay up threads?

8/10/2006 1:25:18 AM

what jumped out at me is the fact that walmart only has 8 gas stations. there are what?, 3 in raleigh?

8/10/2006 1:42:04 AM

380 sams club stations

8/10/2006 1:57:11 AM

^^Huh?

Quote :

"It could also decide to sell ethanol in a partnership with Murphy Oil Corp. (Charts), which operates about 946 gas stations in Wal-Mart parking lots"

[Edited on August 10, 2006 at 1:59 AM. Reason : 2]

8/10/2006 1:59:22 AM

Quote :

"if we rely solely on corn for the fuel, then we risk the chance of eating into food supply corn and drastically reducing agricultural exports. "

supply of corn > supply of fossil fuels



i mean, you cant just grow gasoline

8/10/2006 4:23:09 AM

You could grow corn on all the arable soil in the US for the next thousand years and the resulting ethanol produced still wouldn't come close to the amount of untapped oil and coal underground.

supply of fossil fuels >>>>> supply of corn

8/10/2006 4:45:12 AM

too bad we dont actually own all of those untapped resources, eh?

8/10/2006 5:48:13 AM

I think the big barrier to this is that Ethanol cannot be shipped through traditional pipelines and distribution models.

Besides, the corn debate is probably a false dilemma. Most articles I have read indicate mass production of switch grass ethanol is about two years away. Then it doesn't matter how much corn we grow.

No matter what, we have to raise the efficiency of our vehicles. A 15 mpg SUV is a problem whether it runs on gas or runs on Ethanol.

It also doesn't matter if we can grow enough ethanol ourselves, we can always import some from other countries that are more efficient than us right?

8/10/2006 7:52:36 AM

^I thought people gave SUV/hummer drivers dirty looks because they were jealous. Are you saying that maybe they don't like them because they are raising global demand for oil?

[Edited on August 10, 2006 at 7:55 AM. Reason : FYI: sarcasm]

8/10/2006 7:54:53 AM

People think that "Oh god we're eating into our food exports". Uh hello, it's not like we won't be paying for it. We already have the fuel here... as far as the farmer is concerned as long as he makes good money on his crop he's happy.

Would you rather IMPORT oil at $75 a barrel, or use crops already in the country and reinvest the money in our country? I shouldn't even have to answer that.

I'm extremely glad Wal-Mart is taking such a stand. Imagine if the infrastructure works out well. So the US is no longer a major exporter of corn? So mulching companies have to change what they use since the husks are used too.

Right now, without any subsidies... it would work out to be about the same price in gasoline. If the US gives farmers subsidies for farming corn then walla $1.50 a gallon here we come.

Regardless this is a nice step toward alternate fuel usage and getting off our dependence on foreign oil.

8/10/2006 8:05:24 AM

i cant even understand how people could be against this



i can see that the fatties feel protective over their food supply, but i seriously doubt that the nationwide use of ethanol is gonna affect my diet. well, besides the fact that i could afford to eat out more often with all that saved gas money.




i believe most NCSU vehicles run on ethanol....i wonder how much tuition would rise if they switch back to regular gasoline? probably not much, but food for thought

8/10/2006 8:50:50 AM

see I've said it all along. We will not run out of oil. Because one of the basic tennants of capitalism is that when there is money to be made, there is someone to make it. I was waiting for someone to undercut big oil. WalMart surely has the capital to do it.

GG Capitalism. You win.

8/10/2006 9:14:40 AM

8/10/2006 9:20:51 AM

And the fact that American corn Ethanol is only profitable because Uncle Sam subsidizes the heck out of it?

If we simply allowed the importation of Ethanol we wouldn't need subsidies.

8/10/2006 9:27:48 AM

with increased demand, perhaps ethanol can be profitable. It's only subsidized now because it's only in like 2 places in the country.

8/10/2006 9:45:21 AM

Right now our goal is to reduce our dependance on foreign supply. Oil is one of the largest imports we have. imagine if joe blow farmer who has trouble with his crops, or a bad crop can't sell it on the market. Big Oil doesn't care it'll buy his corn for fuel!

This would be a huge boom to hurting farmers. Bust out some corn and walla. There's other crops that can be used similarly but corn was the easiest so far to extract it and it's friggin easy to grow. It selfmulches the land.

Sure farmers will still need to rotate crops but now corn is more of a viable product for all farmers. Imagine the farmers being able to produce their own fuel now. No more gas for their tractors, they build a mini fuel station and can take care of all of their fuel needs for 10% of their current costs.

It has a lot of the benefits of biodiesel without the initial startup cost.

8/10/2006 10:32:51 AM

This is very exciting.

8/10/2006 10:35:31 AM

Quote :

"Bust out some corn and walla."

8/10/2006 10:56:52 AM

Quote :

"GG government-supported Capitalism. You win."

8/10/2006 11:32:37 AM

Fine, whatever, just please drop the 100% tarriff on imported Ethanol, then we'll talk about corn.

8/10/2006 12:34:09 PM

i watched some little thing where the farm used all Ethanol in their tractors. Seemed cool.

8/11/2006 12:37:39 AM

Quote :

"I thought people gave SUV/hummer drivers dirty looks because they were jealous. Are you saying that maybe they don't like them because they are raising global demand for oil? "

What car you drive is inconsequential, its how much gas your burn off. I drive a Tahoe but I bought a house less than 5 miles from work. I have a short commute and I can use E85 fuel. There is a person in my group who bought a hybrid Honda but they have a drive each way of 1 hour... they are burning far more fuel than I am. (just did a little basic calculations and they are actually burning about 2 gallons of fuel each day to my half gallon)

I'd also like to point out that minivans get the same gas mileage as SUV's (heck a Jeep Grand Cherokee does better than most minivans) and lets not forget sports cars. There is a need for larger vehicles and vehicles with towing and storage capacity, you simply can't avoid it.

I wish more employers would be open to the idea of telecommuting. It has the potential to drastically reduce emissions, traffic congestion, accident frequency, give the employee more free personal time, etc.

8/11/2006 12:40:04 PM

Quote :

"I wish more employers would be open to the idea of telecommuting. It has the potential to drastically reduce emissions, traffic congestion, accident frequency, give the employee more free personal time, etc."

Let's get you elected...

8/11/2006 12:46:43 PM

Maybe in another 20 years when our average mpg has gone up another .5mpg we won't be worrying about this.

8/11/2006 12:52:25 PM

Quote :

"I'd also like to point out that minivans get the same gas mileage as SUV's "

from:

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/byclass.htm

pretty much all the minivans get city gas mileage similar to an suv (aroudn 17-18 mpg), but get much better highway gas mileage (all ranked were between 23 and 25 mpg)

the small SUVs (like the ford escape, etc) did get better gas mileage than the minivans. but your more "normal" sized, got worse gas mileage than the minivans. the middle 50% (ranked by fuel efficiency) ranged from about 19|26 to 15|19 (city|highway).

and this was an unfortunate example you gave:

Quote :

"(heck a Jeep Grand Cherokee does better than most minivans)"

The three 2006 models of jeep grand cherokee all get worse gas mileage than all the minivans.

8/11/2006 1:05:39 PM

Quote :

"The three 2006 models of jeep grand cherokee all get worse gas mileage than all the minivans."

Well, when I did the comparison about two years ago it had the minivan beat by like 1mpg

Quote :

"Let's get you elected..."

Sad part is that I work for the DOT where traffic congestion and safety are concerns yet they don't allow any of us to telecommute (and I'm a programmer so its not like I need to be in person for any reason)

8/11/2006 1:33:08 PM

You programmers don't understand that personal interaction is important for getting business done.

8/11/2006 1:35:45 PM

the DOT doesn't have any plans to add any lanes to 40 near the wade ave exit does it? because that would be really helpful.

8/11/2006 1:38:29 PM

SAS just needs their own damn entrance or something

8/11/2006 1:39:13 PM

Quote :

"You programmers don't understand that personal interaction is important for getting business done."

Videoconferencing's pretty personal.

8/11/2006 1:50:15 PM

Would it suprise anyone that walmart is also getting into selling organics, now?

8/11/2006 2:46:07 PM

Yes video conferencing is better than email or a phone, no it is not as good as being in the same office.

[Edited on August 11, 2006 at 2:50 PM. Reason : nvm]

8/11/2006 2:49:14 PM

^^ I've actually heard that. It'll help them get a bigger slice of the "aging hippie liberal douche" market-- it makes them look good, and they can sell it for a higher price than they would otherwise.

8/11/2006 2:57:33 PM

Quote :

"Yes video conferencing is better than email or a phone, no it is not as good as being in the same office."

Weighed against its benefits, I'm still on the side of telecommuting.

But then, I would be. I've done it for 8 years, almost throughout my entire professional life (excepting a 3 month stint as a financial advisor).

8/11/2006 3:07:56 PM

I own a 1998 Land Rover Discovery that gets 12 city 15 highway

I just bought a 1999 Saturn SL1 that gets 29 city 40 highway

so I guess Im doing my part to reduce demand, and I will only use the Rover to do what its intended to do....offroad and tow.

8/11/2006 3:21:22 PM

Quote :

"A ridiculous statement."

do you know how much corn it takes to create enough ethanol to fill a 25 gal. tank, LoneSnark? I'll assume you do, since you're an expert on everything else. It takes a lot of energy to make ethanol.

check out this study: http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/July05/ethanol.toocostly.ssl.html

[Edited on August 11, 2006 at 6:57 PM. Reason : .]

8/11/2006 6:44:40 PM

^^ a diesel truck would give you better mileage and be alot safer to tow with

[Edited on August 11, 2006 at 6:48 PM. Reason : s]

8/11/2006 6:48:43 PM

Quote :

"do you know how much corn it takes to create enough ethanol to fill a 25 gal. tank, LoneSnark? I'll assume you do, since you're an expert on everything else. It takes a lot of energy to make ethanol."

Like I said, your point is irrelevant. Resources flow to those who covet them most dearly. If people want corn for eating then they will pay whatever it takes to get it, with the net effect that if people want corn for eating they will get it, regardless of what the Ethanol industry is planning.

If you do not understand economics, then here it is in a nutshell: if people are willing to pay money to eat corn, and they cannot eat corn if too much Ethanol is produced, then less Ethanol will be produced, the mathematical rules are already in place through the system of prices.

Mathematically, let us make some assumptions: Food Lion sells units of corn to end users. Enron takes units of corn and turns it into units of Ethanol for sale to end users at a ratio of 6 to 1 (6 units of corn to make 1 unit of Ethanol). At this rediculously simplified ratio, ignoring government subsidies & taxes, holding profits at zero, and ignoring all other costs, we should expect 1 unit of Ethanol to always cost 6 times that of 1 unit of corn. So, if Food Lion is selling corn for 50 cents a unit then we know Ethanol must be selling at $3 a unit. If BP shuts down a pipeline and gasoline prices soar to $6 a unit, of which Ethanol is a perfect substitute (assumption), then Enron will bid more for corn, Food Lion will reciprocate, raising the price in the store of corn to $1 a unit. Sure, corn is more expensive, but people are not going without food, there will be no shortage of corn at Food Lion at $1 a unit. Hopefully people will stop eating corn, instead consuming some other starchy food, freeing up corn for fuel production so the price of gasoline (and thus corn) will come back down.

But if we change the assumptions so there is no food but corn then the price system will work thusly: the price of both corn and Ethanol will rise until end users give up consuming one of them. It strikes me that people are far more willing to give up driving than eating, so any "price war" over corn between Food Lion and Enron would always end with Food Lion victorious: at some price people start sleeping at work, but at no price do people give up trying to eat.

8/12/2006 12:13:24 AM

thanks for explaining the obvious. hope people are ready to sacrifice eating and production habits for energy production (didnt you once say that we need to be concentrating on oil right now, anyway?). now, actually read the article i posted behind the cornell link (im not in a science, i cant explain it myself) and debunk that based on the science used to prove the amt. of energy it takes to produce x amt of energy.

in other news, GM has a listing of all flex fuel cars on their website now. unfortunately, they are mostly the least-fuel economical cars, ensuring that everyone who buys from them will still depend on their oil buddies. hopefully their hybrid initiative, coupled w/ ford's expansion in flex fuels and daimlerchrysler's new commitment to hybrids will succeed and allow them to expand domestic production.


[Edited on August 12, 2006 at 9:43 PM. Reason : .]

8/12/2006 9:24:24 PM