The US Constitution hates America

At least this America

Georgie and his friends have fucked America beyond all recognizability now

They like to say everything changed after 9/11 and damn it they are right

No longer are they Rights but privledges.

Quote :

"2 Lodi residents refused entry back into U.S. Demian Bulwa, Chronicle Staff Writer Saturday, August 26, 2006 Jaber Ismail, 18, (right) is seen with his younger brothe... * Printable Version * Email This Article (08-26) 04:00 PDT Sacramento -- The federal government has barred two relatives of a Lodi man convicted of supporting terrorists from returning to the country after a lengthy stay in Pakistan, placing the U.S. citizens in an extraordinary legal limbo. Muhammad Ismail, a 45-year-old naturalized citizen born in Pakistan, and his 18-year-old son, Jaber Ismail, who was born in the United States, have not been charged with a crime. However, they are the uncle and cousin of Hamid Hayat, a 23-year-old Lodi cherry packer who was convicted in April of supporting terrorists by attending a Pakistani training camp. Federal authorities said Friday that the men, both Lodi residents, would not be allowed back into the country unless they agreed to FBI interrogations in Pakistan. An attorney representing the family said agents have asked whether the younger Ismail trained in terrorist camps in Pakistan. The men and three relatives had been in Pakistan for more than four years and tried to return to the United States on April 21 as a federal jury in Sacramento deliberated Hayat's fate. But they were pulled aside during a layover in Hong Kong and told there was a problem with their passports, said Julia Harumi Mass, their attorney. The father and son were forced to pay for a flight back to Islamabad because they were on the government's "no-fly" list, Mass said. Muhammad Ismail's wife, teenage daughter and younger son, who were not on the list, continued on to the United States. Neither Muhammad nor Jaber Ismail holds dual Pakistani citizenship, Mass said. "We haven't heard about this happening -- U.S. citizens being refused the right to return from abroad without any charges or any basis," said Mass, a lawyer for the American Civil Liberties Union. McGregor Scott, the U.S. attorney for California's eastern district, confirmed Friday that the men were on the no-fly list and were being kept out of the country until they agreed to talk to federal authorities. "They've been given the opportunity to meet with the FBI over there and answer a few questions, and they've declined to do that," Scott said. Mass said Jaber Ismail had answered questions during an FBI interrogation at the U.S. Embassy in Islamabad soon after he was forced back to Pakistan. She said the teenager had run afoul of the FBI when he declined to be interviewed again without a lawyer and refused to take a lie-detector test. The Ismails had been in Pakistan partly so Jaber could study the Quran, Mass said. She said that neither he nor his father had anything to do with terrorism. "They want to come home and have an absolute right to come home," said Mass, who has filed a complaint with the Department of Homeland Security and a petition with the Transportation Security Administration. "

8/28/2006 6:01:23 AM

Quote :

" "They can't be compelled to waive their constitutional rights under threat of banishment," Mass said. "The government is conditioning the return to their home on cooperation with law enforcement." Aviation watch lists were created in 1990 to keep terrorists off planes and track drug smugglers and other fugitives. But since al Qaeda's attacks on Sept. 11, 2001, the government has expanded the lists significantly. Members of the public cannot find out if, or why, they are on a no-fly list. Michael Barr, director of the aviation safety and security program at USC, said the Ismail case appears to be unusual in the realm of federal terrorism investigations. "You become what is called a stateless person, and that would be very unprecedented," Barr said. He said U.S. law enforcement agents have understandably been "overly cautious" in recent years. "If they're going to err, they're going to err on the side of caution," Barr said. "What's happened in a lot of these things is that you're guilty until proven innocent." Jaber Ismail was one of several people mentioned by his cousin, Hayat, during a videotaped interview with the FBI in Sacramento in June 2005 that prompted Hayat's arrest. Hayat himself had just returned from a two-year trip to Pakistan. His flight, too, had been diverted because Hayat was on the no-fly list as a result of conversations he had with an informant who had infiltrated the mosque in Lodi that Hayat attended. Prosecutors said Hayat told FBI interrogators that he had trained at a terrorist camp in Pakistan, although defense attorneys argued that the videotaped confession was contradictory and suggested that agents had manipulated the interview. When agents asked him who else had gone to training camps, Hayat said, "I can't say 100 percent, but I have a lot of, you know, names in my head," according to a transcript of the interview. Hayat said Jaber Ismail "went, like, two years ago." Asked if his cousin had gone to the same camp he had attended, Hayat said, "I'm not sure, but I'll say he went to a camp." Hayat later said that Ismail and another relative "didn't talk to me about going to camps or anything. But you know I'm sure they went to the camp ... 'cause they memorize the Holy Quran." Hayat faces up to 39 years in prison when he is sentenced. A hearing is scheduled for Nov. 17 to discuss his lawyers' motion for a new trial on a number of grounds, including juror misconduct. On Friday, Hayat's father, ice cream truck driver Umer Hayat, 48, was formally sentenced at U.S. District Court in Sacramento. In a deal with prosecutors, the elder Hayat pleaded guilty in June to charges of lying to customs agents about $28,000 he was carrying during a trip to his native Pakistan. He avoided a retrial on more serious charges of lying to the FBI about his son's training in Pakistan. He was sentenced to the 330 days in jail that he already served. Speaking publicly for the first time, Umer Hayat said outside the courthouse that he "got screwed" and "hates terrorists." He said he had fabricated his own videotaped FBI confession -- in which he described visiting a militant camp in Pakistan where his son had allegedly trained -- because agents refused to believe the truth and because he was tired. He said he had borrowed his description of masked terrorists firing guns, swinging swords and pole vaulting in a basement from "the newspaper and the TV," as well as from a Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles video game belonging to his children. He said his ice cream truck bears a photo of one of the turtles, advertising a $1.25 ice cream bar. "I make a story, that's all," Hayat said. Scott, the U.S. attorney, said he would "take anything Umer Hayat says with a grain of salt. He seems capable of saying whatever needs to be said at any particular time, whether it's the truth or not.""

[Edited on August 28, 2006 at 6:04 AM. Reason : .]

8/28/2006 6:02:27 AM

Damn, and Bush called up the cops there and was like "Don't let these guys back in, ok"
How does he even find the time in the day to do that kind of shit

I didn't read the entire article, because I'm at work and gotta do some stuff, but I wonder if it mentions anything about expired visas or anything, because I know you can't stay in a country 4 years without some serious paperwork every once in a while. If they didn't file the paperwork, I can see the FBI wanting to chat with them before they let them back in the country.

8/28/2006 7:38:59 AM

^both were citizens

I only skimmed at best. I hate articles that are so long they span multiple posts. I did skim this little gem out...

Quote :

"pole vaulting in a basement"

wow... nice basement.

[Edited on August 28, 2006 at 7:53 AM. Reason : -]

8/28/2006 7:46:56 AM

I don't care how tired I am...I am not confessing to being a terrorist.

WTF, did he think they'd be like "Oh...serial? Ok, you're free to go now, you terrorist bastard!"

8/28/2006 8:04:11 AM

He has gone too far this time!!!


so what are you going to do about it, nutkisser, that you havent done before?? thats the question...

8/28/2006 8:15:32 AM

Hamid Hayat - "You reap what you sow."
Muhammad Ismail - "Omoonto womoonto manyilinga ororme, agaande utwa nagaande omera." An African proverb meaning, when it is the near relative who has committed something bad, you will both blame him and defend him. The proverb is told of a person who is wronged by his relative.
Jaber Ismal - "The apple does not fall far from the tree."
George Bush - "Fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again." - An old proverb by Georgious Maximus Creyziest

8/28/2006 8:16:08 AM

good, i think they need to be interrogated before let back in. A trip to Pakistan to study the koran... that doesn't sound like a front for terrorist training camp?

8/28/2006 9:41:01 AM

imagine how pissed people would get if some white kids went to Ireland for a few years to study the bible and were not let back into the country because their uncle was in the IRA and blew up some cars.

seems like they went waaaaaaaaaaaay overboard

8/28/2006 9:49:41 AM

yes, because the IRA and AL Qaeda are equal and comparable given the era that we're living.

FANTASTIC COMPARISON!

8/28/2006 10:18:24 AM

Bush is the worst president ever!!111one

8/28/2006 10:26:10 AM

this shit is waay to far... i bet that if a french citizen had left france and came back that robespierre would've totally said "GTFO NO WAY" and a bunch of white people would've had problems with that.

8/28/2006 10:39:40 AM

i can really feel it now!! bush is going to get impeached soon! just a few more threads and congress will be convinced! woo hoo a win for the democrats!

8/28/2006 10:41:43 AM

groge bush is teh debil

8/28/2006 10:46:55 AM

i thought all terrorists were bad?

are some only kinda bad now?

8/28/2006 10:51:36 AM

BUSH IS TAKING AWAY YOUR FREEDOMS!!11

8/28/2006 10:52:21 AM

^^ no dickwad, your analogy was horrible... let's continue



STOP GROGE BUSH NOW!!!11!!

8/28/2006 10:56:00 AM

so you must be part of the IRA?

and I thought the socialists were taking away our freedoms.

8/28/2006 10:57:04 AM

if you made an ounce of sense, I would know that that was the 7th sign of the apocalypse and i would run for shelter from the plauges of scorpion and gigantic bug flies.

8/28/2006 11:02:06 AM

Current events, read them:
http://tinyurl.com/lsh54

[Edited on August 28, 2006 at 11:05 AM. Reason : -]

8/28/2006 11:04:36 AM

I have family in Lodi.

That's about all I have to say since this thread has just turned into the typical crappy sarcasm-fest.

8/28/2006 11:06:08 AM

so you're not denying your ties to the IRA?

8/28/2006 11:07:09 AM

What about the UDA?

8/28/2006 11:07:53 AM

what about the PTA?????????

8/28/2006 11:09:27 AM

I think they're MIA.

8/28/2006 11:10:20 AM

Quote :

"this thread has just turned into the typical crappy sarcasm-fest."

well look at the title and the first post

its a fucking horrible thread to begin with

8/28/2006 11:11:30 AM

8/28/2006 11:12:10 AM

Quote :

"cherry packer "

8/28/2006 11:12:36 AM

I actually do think if I went to study the Bible (and I guess Catechism) in Ireland for 4 whole years and my Uncle was a crazed IRA terrorist, I ought to answer a few questions about where I had been. What monestary I was worshipping at, how the trip went. Whether or not I was at a training camp for radical catholics. I'd expect to be asked these questions.

I still would like my (serious) question answered about whether or not they continued to file the correct paperwork about Visas, etc. or did they just disappear for 4 years in Pakistan and then show back up ready to enter the US again.

8/28/2006 11:14:52 AM

yeah i was being serious about the IRA.

but it seems like they are going alittle overboard imo.

8/28/2006 11:17:02 AM

Quote :

"Muhammad Ismail, a 45-year-old naturalized citizen born in Pakistan, and his 18-year-old son, Jaber Ismail, who was born in the United States"

^^Like I said, I believe they were citizens. I'm not sure what kind of VISA they would be renewing.

8/28/2006 11:17:59 AM

so most of you guys are saying it's ok to block a citizen of the usa entry into the country, even if they are charged with no crime? ok. just checking.

8/28/2006 11:26:05 AM

only people who have something to hide need to worry.

so you should be coolio

8/28/2006 11:30:57 AM

Since we're into putting words in people's mouths...

So you're saying that it's ok to just let any US citizen in the country, irregardless of any suspicion their activities have raised?

8/28/2006 11:31:16 AM

if my uncle or cousin was convicted of attending a Pakistani terrorist training camp and I was en route to the US after a 4 year stay in Pakistan, I would expect to be questioned

also funny that the article doesnt even mention the word 'Bush' or 'President' yet we all know its George Bush who has gone too fucking far this time

8/28/2006 11:31:34 AM

the guy was questioned once, and refused to be questioned again without a lawyer. so the fbi refused him entry into the country. this guy is a us citizen and is afforded rights under the us constitution, regardless of who he's related to.

from the article:

Quote :

""We haven't heard about this happening -- U.S. citizens being refused the right to return from abroad without any charges or any basis," said Mass, a lawyer for the American Civil Liberties Union. McGregor Scott, the U.S. attorney for California's eastern district, confirmed Friday that the men were on the no-fly list and were being kept out of the country until they agreed to talk to federal authorities. "They've been given the opportunity to meet with the FBI over there and answer a few questions, and they've declined to do that," Scott said. Mass said Jaber Ismail had answered questions during an FBI interrogation at the U.S. Embassy in Islamabad soon after he was forced back to Pakistan. She said the teenager had run afoul of the FBI when he declined to be interviewed again without a lawyer and refused to take a lie-detector test."

[Edited on August 28, 2006 at 11:39 AM. Reason : quote]

8/28/2006 11:37:28 AM

Quote :

"a lawyer for the American Civil Liberties Union"

oh gosh

8/28/2006 11:47:00 AM

so you think it's alright to keep a US citizen out of the country unless he gives up his constitutional rights?

8/28/2006 11:48:26 AM

Quote :

"They've been given the opportunity to meet with the FBI over there and answer a few questions, and they've declined to do that," Scott said. Mass said Jaber Ismail had answered questions during an FBI interrogation at the U.S. Embassy in Islamabad soon after he was forced back to Pakistan. She said the teenager had run afoul of the FBI when he declined to be interviewed again without a lawyer and refused to take a lie-detector test"

he's on the no-fly list...he refused further questioning and he refused a lie detector test...he spent the last 4 years in pakistan where his uncle was recently convicted of attending a terrorist training camp...yet somehow it all boils down to constitutional rights...

8/28/2006 11:50:38 AM

Quote :

"he's on the no-fly list...he refused further questioning without a lawyer and he refused a lie detector test...he spent the last 4 years in pakistan where his uncle was recently convicted of attending a terrorist training camp...yet somehow it all boils down to constitutional rights..."

fixed that for you

and just to clarify: he still hasn't been charged with anything. and he's still us citizen.

[Edited on August 28, 2006 at 11:53 AM. Reason : .]

8/28/2006 11:52:52 AM

Lindh: "I'm coming home!"
Agent: "I'd like to ask you a few questions."
Lindh: "Step off! I want my lawyer, Hey... DON'T CHECK MY BAG!!!!1!1!"

Would you let him in?

8/28/2006 11:53:08 AM

maybe they should charge him with a crime if they've got something on him.

oh right. they don't.

8/28/2006 11:54:22 AM

if he was innocent i would let him in

to help determine that, i dont know why he would have problems answering a few questions after his 4 YEAR HIATUS IN PAKISTAN

I mean how about I go spend 10 years in Afghanistan and then complain about my civil liberties when I try to come into the United States 10 years later after my uncle was just busted for attending a terrorist training camp

common sense people

8/28/2006 11:54:25 AM

I wonder how their names got on the do not let this guy on a plane list? I wonder what the purpose of said list would be if they let people on the list actually get on a plane from time to time.

8/28/2006 11:57:45 AM

I fear my own government more than terrorists. Therefore Constitutional Rights are more important than potential terrorists.

8/28/2006 12:00:56 PM

you fear the people who want to protect the country more than the people who want to murder every citizen of the country

ok

8/28/2006 12:02:48 PM

Well, they should let the guy talk to them with a lawyer present. Heck it would be in the best interest of the FBI to have the guy's lawyer present because they would have an extra witness to deny claims of coercing the guy into a confession... assuming they were innocent to begin with.

8/28/2006 12:07:05 PM

also, obviously the Miranda Rights give you the right to an attorney if you are placed under arrest for a crime within the United States

but what guarantees you a right to attorney if you arent arrested or charged with anything?

8/28/2006 12:14:19 PM

This guy is a little suspicious, but he does have the right to a lawyer. If they have denied him that, then the US is clearly in the wrong.

Blocking him from flying is really sketchty, and I don't see why they just don't question him in the US instead, but it's probably part of their interrogation strategy, i'm guessing.

8/28/2006 12:19:02 PM

i'm still asking, what document/law guarantees him the right to a lawyer? Again, I know anyone ARRESTED has the right to a lawyer, but is there something that guarantees this guy, who WASNT ARRESTED, the right to a lawyer? I'm asking cause I don't know

8/28/2006 12:20:44 PM