A virtual nobody, Cedric Simmons, in his freshman year, turned into a better than average college basketball center is sophomore... and gets drafted 13th in the 1st round.

Basketball rewards physical qualities that you cannot change with practice and hardwork. If you're born with a freakishly long wingspan, you'll get drafted no matter if your playing days in college were subpar. But the mere potential is enough to get drafted. No other sport is like this.

In football, a 5'9 1/2" steve smith is one of the premier receivers in the land... hard work and determination got him there.

In baseball, an overweight Atlanta closer can get a top job in MLB because of endless arm conditioning routines and pitch practice.

No other sport rewards superficiality like basketball does. It's just the nature of that game.

10/10/2006 9:43:52 AM

What about really big linemen? I've seen a lot of players drafted because they were huge (Big Daddy Wilkerson from the Bengals, for example) who didn't perform all that well in college.

10/10/2006 9:48:58 AM

But you got guys like Mario and Manny who did endless conditioning routines (and Manny could run a 4.3 40)... you aren't born with that.

And sure, you have to be born with a body type, but you can work hard to overcome some of the limitations of your body in football. In basketball, Mugsy Bogues would never, ever, be a standout. Nor would Archie. It just won't happen.

[Edited on October 10, 2006 at 9:51 AM. Reason : .]

10/10/2006 9:50:52 AM

"can't teach size"

10/10/2006 9:50:53 AM

i dont get it

the nba drafts on potential, b/c they have to. short draft, short rosters, and no age requirements.

The college game is completely different from the NBA game, and the rubrick for sucess is quite different in the NBA.

do you think baseball doesnt draft on potential? look how many HS baseball players are drafted.

by the Smith example, are you saying that there are no guys in the NBA that didnt have to work hard to get to where they are?

Just take a look at Ben Wallace.

10/10/2006 9:52:06 AM

No I'm not saying that. My statement is:

Quote :

"No other sport rewards superficiality like basketball does. It's just the nature of that game."

Sure, you can't teach size. I'm with you. But the potential sought in baseball is different from the potential sought in basketball. In basketball, being big is ENOUGH to get you where you're going.

10/10/2006 9:53:33 AM

Quote :

"5'9 1/2" steve smith is one of the premier receivers in the land... hard work and determination got him there"

he's also fast as fuck, you can make yourself a little bit faster with hard work, but most of that is god-given talent.

but I agree that basketball is more rewarding of physical gifts, but you gotta work hard as fuck to be good at the game (think about Darius Miles or Kwame Brown: great physical gifts, no work ethic)

10/10/2006 9:53:56 AM

No doubt it takes work. All sports do... if you want to get to the professional level. But the amount of superficiality that is involved with basketball is much higher than the rest of the sports, which is why I labeled it subpar, but still a sport.

10/10/2006 9:59:16 AM

This thread just shows your subpar understanding of sports, basketball especially.

10/10/2006 10:03:23 AM

basketball is played 5-12 feet off the ground, which puts longer/taller people at a premium.

football is played closer to the ground, for the most part, and the players are more solidly built, so tall lanky players would be at a disadvantage.

different sports with different styles of play, doesn't make one or the other subpar.

[Edited on October 10, 2006 at 10:07 AM. Reason : or not of]

10/10/2006 10:04:38 AM

Quote :

"This thread just shows your subpar understanding of sports, basketball especially."

[Edited on October 10, 2006 at 10:15 AM. Reason : d]

10/10/2006 10:15:38 AM

Quote :

"This thread just shows your subpar understanding of sports, basketball especially."

10/10/2006 10:17:06 AM

Horse racing is a subpar sport, because those horses are BEAST

10/10/2006 10:17:22 AM

this is a fact. There really can't be any debate over it.

10/10/2006 10:19:11 AM

I'll agree only that the NBA is subpar.

College basketball > *

10/10/2006 10:19:47 AM

is it entertaining? Sure. I love college basketball. But it rewards only physical abilities that are natural born.

10/10/2006 10:21:14 AM

you're right, there have never been spud webs or nate robinsons.

10/10/2006 10:23:17 AM

THIS ARGUMENT IS BULLSHIT......NFL PLAYERS GET DRAFTED EVERY DAY BECAUSE OF THEIR 40 TIME,SIZE AND 225 BENCH PRESS REPS......ALL THEY LOOK FOR IS ATHLETES....STEVE SMITH IS THE EXCEPTION TO THE RULE.....YOU LOOK AT THE MAJORITY OF NFL ROSTERS AND MOST OF THE WR'S ARE 6+ FT. AND RUN A SUB 4.5 40 TIME.....ONLY A FEW OF THEM CAN ACUTALLY CATCH....I CAN'T SAY THE SAME FOR BASEBALL BECAUSE I DON'T WATCH/CARE ABOUT BASEBALL, ITS GAY......MARIO WILLIAMS WAS NOT THAT GREAT LAST YEAR AT STATE AND HE WAS DRAFTED #1 BECAUSE OF HIS SIZE AND SPEED...IF HE ACTUALLY DOMINATED GAMES WE SHOULD HAVE WON MORE GAMES...

10/10/2006 10:24:37 AM

basketball has surely evolved, has it not?

10/10/2006 10:24:44 AM

people without the freakish physical qualities that played the game at it's highest level:
muggsy bogues, spud webb, earl boykins, tiny archibald

the real kicker is that larry bird, who's obviously one of the best of all time, had just a little more than zero athletic ability... his insane work ethic and natural talent were enough to make up for it

MJ, the greatest of all time, was obviously uber-talented, but he'll be the first to tell you that he was always the first one in the gym in the morning and the last to leave at night

this thread is pretty stupid

10/10/2006 10:25:36 AM

^^^^^all professional sports do that do some degree.

it's just more obvious in basketball because height is more visible than something like the number of muscle fibers and the ratio of slow-twitch to fast-twitch fibers.

Mario Williams and Manny Lawson are hard workers, certainly. But they also have one-in-a-million genetics.

[Edited on October 10, 2006 at 10:26 AM. Reason : adhs]

10/10/2006 10:25:48 AM

SO YOU ARE SAYING MANNY AND MARIO ARE HARD WORKERS AND CEDRIC ISN'T???? HOW IN THE FUCK DO ANY OF YOU LOSERS KNOW...DO YOU TRAIN WITH THEM???

10/10/2006 10:26:53 AM

Quote :

"But it rewards only physical abilities that are natural born."

As does every other sport.

The skills you have to possess to play NBA basketball are pretty fucking ridiculous. Really tall guys in the NBA are like really fat O-lineman in the NFL...or overweight pitchers and first-basemen in the major leagues.

I had a roommate for two years that played Division III basketball that he could go out and make 75 out of 100 3-pointers on a normal day and had ridiculous handles. Cedric Simmons has A LOT more skills than you think he does. A guy can look goofy and not "very-skilled" out on the court, but you go to practice and he's finishing dribbling drills like a point guard.

Again....

Quote :

"This thread just shows your subpar understanding of sports, basketball especially."

10/10/2006 10:32:27 AM

Quote :

"Really tall guys in the NBA are like really fat O-lineman in the NFL...or overweight pitchers and first-basemen in the major leagues."

No, because an O-Lineman doesn't have to be FAT to be good nor does a pitcher have to be overweight to be good. You have to be tall to be really good at basketball.

10/10/2006 10:37:35 AM

NO YOU DON'T

10/10/2006 10:38:09 AM

^^^ where the fuck did i say that cedric wasn't?

it's been well documented that mario and manny are gym rats. hell, men's health did a spread on mario this month.

^^ Are you saying that David Thompson (6'4") wasn't very good at basketball... or michael jordan (6'6')?

[Edited on October 10, 2006 at 10:40 AM. Reason : ag]

10/10/2006 10:39:00 AM

Quote :

"You have to be tall to be really good at basketball."

You are so right.

Sincerely yours,

Mugsy Bogues
Nate Robinson
Early Boykins
Spudd Webb
Chris Paul
Raymond Felton
Steve Nash
Mark Price
etc.

10/10/2006 10:41:35 AM

No, but I'm saying the range of physical qualities to play pro basketball is less than the range of physical qualities required to play other pro sports.

^I never said there weren't outliers. The rule is that those with unproven talent (Simmons) can get drafted based totally upon a single physical quality.

[Edited on October 10, 2006 at 10:44 AM. Reason : .]

10/10/2006 10:41:47 AM

you're either trying to be a troll, or you're an idiot.

10/10/2006 10:49:49 AM

failed thread

10/10/2006 10:49:59 AM

Quote :

"you're either trying to be a troll, or you're an idiot."

I wouldn't put either of them past me.

10/10/2006 10:51:06 AM

Quote :

"I never said there weren't outliers. The rule is that those with unproven talent (Simmons) can get drafted based totally upon a single physical quality. "

what single physical quality is that?

10/10/2006 10:51:21 AM

um, height.

10/10/2006 10:51:55 AM

he's talking about height/length

10/10/2006 10:52:09 AM

ok, then by that rational, every person that is tall is going to get drafted in the nba.

again, you've shown you know very little about basketball if you actually believe that the ONLY reason he was drafted was because he was tall.

10/10/2006 10:53:06 AM

Quote :

"The rule is that those with unproven talent (Simmons) can get drafted based totally upon a single physical quality."

Like Antonio Cromartie in football?? Ridiculous athletes get drafted in football all the time that are "unproven." And don't even start with baseball.

And I can't believe I left off Allen Iverson.

10/10/2006 10:54:57 AM

^Iverson is definitely the best argument against the height thing

and Simmons was definitely drafted based on potential, but man, he sure does have that. I reference our games against Iowa and Duke last year.

Ced is a defensive force, most teams build around big defensive forces, like Ced, Dwight Howard, etc.

10/10/2006 10:57:56 AM

Quote :

"What about really big linemen? I've seen a lot of players drafted because they were huge (Big Daddy Wilkerson from the Bengals, for example) who didn't perform all that well in college."

You don't even want huge lineman, you want fast ones... there was a year when Cherokee H.S. had two dudes 400 and 500 lbs. all you had to do was be faster than them. Get the hit, shove their shoulder pads up into their face, and stand them up. They can't do anything effective after their center of gravity is pushed up...

Just like most contact sports, it's all about skills. I've pulled a 500 lb. water-logged kayak into a boat.

Some ppl are natural athletes. Some ppl are smart. When you get someone who is both and can combine the two w/o thinking too much, you have a player.

10/10/2006 10:58:35 AM

Quote :

"ok, then by that rational, every person that is tall is going to get drafted in the nba."

Yay, lets take what I said and transform it into something I didn't say! I didn't say EVERY nor did I say the ONLY physical trait you had to have... I said, by and large, the rule is height. Iverson is an example against this, I acknowledge in the same way that I acknowledge that outliers exist.

10/10/2006 11:00:48 AM

Quote :

"I've pulled a 500 lb. water-logged kayak into a boat. "

OMG...YOU ARE SUCH A BADASS
I SUPPOSE THAT IS AN INCREDIBLE FEAT OF STRENGTH FOR A FAT FUCKER LIKE YOURSELF
JUST WHEN I THOUGHT YOU WERE GOING TO MAKE A RELEVANT POINT IN THIS ARGUMENT YOU COME UP WITH THAT NONSENSE...GG

10/10/2006 11:03:39 AM

^^but Iverson is a freakin' superstar, calling him an outlier is ridiculous.

He's MAYBE 6' and he can easily put up 40 on any given night. Dude, you're just an idiot.

[Edited on October 10, 2006 at 11:05 AM. Reason : ^]

10/10/2006 11:04:58 AM

He's an outlier in the category of height. In a height dominated sport, I never said that a height-challenged person could not be good. I never said that. I said that the rule in basketball is height. That is first and foremost.

10/10/2006 11:05:43 AM

i know lots of tall/big people who have let their size/height go to waste - atleast in terms of using the traits for athletic performance

10/10/2006 11:11:58 AM

Quote :

"I said that the rule in basketball is height. That is first and foremost. "

Quote :

"This thread just shows your subpar understanding of sports, basketball especially."

10/10/2006 11:13:05 AM

Quote :

"Yay, lets take what I said and transform it into something I didn't say! I didn't say EVERY nor did I say the ONLY physical trait you had to have."

you clearly said:

Quote :

"The rule is that those with unproven talent (Simmons) can get drafted based totally upon a single physical quality."

if ced was ONLY drafted because of his height, why wouldn't they do that for everyone else is well? they don't, and they didn't draft ced ONLY because of his height. thats my point. your statement was just as ridiculous as mine.





[Edited on October 10, 2006 at 11:19 AM. Reason : i dont know why i always try to spell ridiculous with an e.]

[Edited on October 10, 2006 at 11:19 AM. Reason : jesus i cant type today]

10/10/2006 11:16:07 AM

Reddickulous

10/10/2006 11:16:52 AM

REDONKEYLIPS

[Edited on October 10, 2006 at 11:18 AM. Reason : d]

10/10/2006 11:18:42 AM

what a dumb fucking thread
with an even dumber argument

10/10/2006 11:53:06 AM

Quote :

"College basketball > *"

close,

college basketball/football > pro anything

10/10/2006 12:18:04 PM

except NFL > EVERYTHING

10/10/2006 12:27:03 PM