I keep hearing about it but other than a difference in scores, what else indicates that it is 'racist'? or is that just lazy speak for some minorities not doing so well.

(note, this is not a economic question, so the prep classes that cost $X amount are NOT being included as they are NOT the test itself)

11/20/2006 12:40:03 PM

i mean

maybe if you present some kind of evidence

or an argument

or something

then it could be disputed

11/20/2006 12:41:07 PM

Quote :

"other than a difference in scores, what else indicates that it is 'racist'?"

if u need evidence of that then go to google..jesus...

11/20/2006 12:43:21 PM

I've heard the math section isn't racist, but the verbal assumes certain cultural biases that aren't present in all societies. I can see how it could be construed as racist. Also note that when I took the SAT the max score was 1600, and don't know how things are now with all the new sections and stuff.

11/20/2006 12:59:13 PM

top score is 2400

the writing part is 800, math/verbal also 800 each

IIRC

11/20/2006 1:02:41 PM

how come asians always do so awesome then?

11/20/2006 1:03:53 PM

because they are smarter than everyone else.

11/20/2006 1:05:13 PM

they have a zen like patience

11/20/2006 1:05:46 PM

because the cheat

11/20/2006 1:13:47 PM

Quote :

"if u need evidence of that then go to google..jesus..."

i did wiseass, all i got was "some minorities score lower, SAT MUST BE RACIST!" bullshit....


no, i'm asking if there is any other 'evidence' other than that, that the test is racist...

when I took the test it was out of 1600 points, and nothing in the test seemed to be culturally related. the math section obviously, can't be racist (numbers/apples/oranges sort of things), the 'verbal' portion consisted of fake excerpts from crappy lit. but none of it seemed racist, it was all written in correct english and such...

i dont think it's racist at all, but i would like to see if they have some sort of valid argument about it....

[Edited on November 20, 2006 at 1:15 PM. Reason : s]

11/20/2006 1:15:18 PM

^dude i wasnt talking to you...i was talking to ernie...i used your quote for reference

11/20/2006 1:21:41 PM

http://rethinkingschools.org/archive/15_04/Race154.shtml

This talks about a Stanford study that theorizes and tests that the difference is in the expectations of blacks vs. whites. That since blacks are expected to do worse, they do (this is the same thing another thread showed recently with women and science). But when put in a situation where they have equal teaching, but are told it's not an intellectual test, they perform just as well.

11/20/2006 1:30:29 PM

There are rather noticeable physical differences between whites and blacks

Is it that unbelievable that there are mental differences as well?

11/20/2006 1:32:38 PM

^good point

11/20/2006 1:34:53 PM

^^ OH SHIT

IT JUST GOT REAL

11/20/2006 1:43:27 PM

So should they add a basketball skills section?

11/20/2006 1:45:30 PM

^^^^OOOOOHHHHH

[Edited on November 20, 2006 at 1:47 PM. Reason : .]

11/20/2006 1:46:47 PM

Quote :

"There are rather noticeable physical differences between whites and blacks Is it that unbelievable that there are mental differences as well?"

it is a cultural issue.

11/20/2006 1:51:08 PM

^ recent cultural issue as well actually....

11/20/2006 1:55:03 PM

all i know is black people make for way better athletes than white honkies

11/20/2006 1:55:43 PM

drunknloaded is fuckin jimmy the greek up in SB

11/20/2006 1:57:42 PM

if blacks are like 13 percent of the population then why is like 65 percent of the nfl african american? i bet basketball is even higher

i'm just saying, if there is physical differences, maybe there are mental ones too

white people dont wanna admit it but blacks are a superior race

[Edited on November 20, 2006 at 2:02 PM. Reason : they also create the best music]

11/20/2006 1:59:11 PM

best music?

no thanks

11/20/2006 2:03:20 PM

^^ because slavery removed the weaker ones from the gene pool

[Edited on November 20, 2006 at 2:04 PM. Reason : ^]

11/20/2006 2:04:03 PM

Quote :

"if blacks are like 13 percent of the population then why is like 65 percent of the nfl african american? i bet basketball is even higher i'm just saying, if there is physical differences, maybe there are mental ones too white people dont wanna admit it but blacks are a superior race"

ok black people play the sport

white people own it

11/20/2006 2:06:19 PM

Standardized tests were discussed in several classes I took last year. I cam away from those discussions (and papers) concluding that gaps in the scoring between whites and blacks depended largely on:

1) Expectations - when black students feel expected to perform poorly, they often (A) put too much pressure on themselves or (B) simply give up and say "Why bother?"

2) Socioeconomic status - Minority student statistically more often come from rougher areas and poorer families (i.e. homes less conducive to academic success).

3) Bias - The tests historically have been made by rich white people. Is anyone surprised white kids usually perform better on them?

11/20/2006 2:25:10 PM

Quote :

"The tests historically have been made by rich white people. Is anyone surprised white kids usually perform better on them?"

How does that correlate? What kind of questions are easier for whites and harder for blacks?

11/20/2006 2:28:07 PM

^^great post...all trolling or padding or whatever aside...thats a good ass post

11/20/2006 2:29:58 PM

What about hockey? Why hasn't that been taken over by blacks? Or skateboarding? Or speedskating? I think it's probably that black people work harder to get in to sports is the reason for their over representation in certain sports in the US.

11/20/2006 2:47:38 PM

Quote :

"1) Expectations - when black students feel expected to perform poorly, they often (A) put too much pressure on themselves or (B) simply give up and say "Why bother?""

this has a lot to do with it. its why Azns (including macacas) do well - our parents expect nothing but the best from us, and will beat that ass if we underperform.

11/20/2006 2:49:12 PM

Quote :

"best music? no thanks"

you listen to classical or something?

11/20/2006 2:51:53 PM

Quote :

"How does that correlate? What kind of questions are easier for whites and harder for blacks?"

There was an academic discussion a while ago how there were cultural references in the SAT that would be more readily understood by whites than by blacks. I think this was in terms of the literature they chose, references in things like analogies, etc.

Also, there was some controversy that the test was easier for those who came from more educated families because they would have learned more of the vocabulary from their environment naturally than those of lesser educated backgrounds.

Whether or not these concerns panned out, I'm not sure. Personally, I believe a lot of the problem comes from being raised in an environment and/or culture that does not promote, or even discourage, education and academic success. I think that's one of the biggest issues, the kind of thing that if not instilled at an early age compounds largely by the time the student graduates high school.

An extention of that: if a person grows up in a poorer family, this is much harder for the parents to encourage since they're too busy putting food on the table to ensure an environment conducive to learning.

[Edited on November 20, 2006 at 3:22 PM. Reason : added last paragraph]

11/20/2006 3:20:23 PM

No doubt rich white kids with educated parents will do better in Verbal skills than someone who doesn't exercise proper English use in their everyday life. But should you really test the vernacular instead of actual English?

What do you test to put people on a level playing field in Literature if not analogies, metaphors, tone, and diction?

I think what the real problem here is this: Black students, on the average, come from less wealthy and educated families than the average white kid, and because of that, are--on average--less intelligent that their average white counterpart. Therefore they do poorly on the test. It isn't that the test is somehow racist, it simply is divining the ugly truth behind the social reality.

That said, the SAT sucks dick as a measure of intelligence anyhow, and should be abolished.

11/20/2006 3:27:13 PM

Quote :

"But should you really test the vernacular instead of actual English?"

I'm dying to see "skeet skeet skeet" in the vocab section.

11/20/2006 3:35:05 PM

what??? what'd I say???

11/20/2006 3:50:13 PM

Quote :

"white people dont wanna admit it but blacks are a superior race"

You are an idiot

11/20/2006 3:54:28 PM

black have taken a second rate minority status to the latinos

11/20/2006 4:28:00 PM

Quote :

" What do you test to put people on a level playing field in Literature if not analogies, metaphors, tone, and diction? "

Analogies, metaphors, and to a lesser extent tone, are all somewhat subjective.

If someone grows up in the midwest, never having been to the ocean, a metaphor or analogy dealing with the ocean is going to have a different meaning to them than for someone who lives near the ocean.

11/20/2006 4:57:28 PM

Erios did an excellent job of summing up everything I know about this topic.

Quote :

"humandrive: There are rather noticeable physical differences between whites and blacks Is it that unbelievable that there are mental differences as well?"

Given what we know about genetics, yes, that is unbelievable.

Quote :

"bgmims: I think what the real problem here is this: Black students, on the average, come from less wealthy and educated families than the average white kid, and because of that, are--on average--less intelligent that their average white counterpart. Therefore they do poorly on the test."

Replace that word "intelligent" with "conventionally educated."

I'll leave y'all with a story:

A family member of mine was an engineering student at State. There was one black woman in his engineering classes. She was a lot like my relative in that neither of them liked English or History, but they loved Math and Science. For one of their classes they had a mid-term that had a bunch of different calculations to do about this one example. That was the whole test. After the mid-term, the two of them talked, and when asked how she thought she did on the test, she said, "I think I did alright, but I still don't know what a 'yacked' is."

The calculations were all about a yacht.

She did well on the test, but she was certainly at a disadvantage.

11/20/2006 5:03:53 PM

^^ well then what the fuck do you propose?

an ebonics section for blacks and a spanish section for the mexicans?

there will be no perfect test for everyone, it is a necessary evil

black culture does not promote education

change that and youll see better performance in all aspects

[Edited on November 20, 2006 at 5:11 PM. Reason : .]

11/20/2006 5:05:56 PM

ive never been on a yacht but I know what the hell it is.


that has nothing to do with race and everything to do with being an idiot who doesnt know what a yacht is.

I dont live in Asia and ive never been there but I know what a junk is. Why do I know this? Because im not a moron.


im calling shananagians on this thread and SAT racism.

[Edited on November 20, 2006 at 5:11 PM. Reason : IF YOU DONT KNOW WHAT A JUNK IS THEN DONT BLAME RACISM!]

11/20/2006 5:09:56 PM

Quote :

"well then what the fuck do you propose? an ebonics section for blacks and a spanish section for the mexicans? there will be no perfect test for everyone, it is a necessary evil"

I'm not trying to say we should have an ebonics test. I'm trying to get you to recognize that the test can in fact be biased to unfairly represent the intelligence of certain groups.

11/20/2006 5:26:29 PM

Quote :

"that has nothing to do with race and everything to do with being an idiot who doesnt know what a yacht is. I dont live in Asia and ive never been there but I know what a junk is. Why do I know this? Because im not a moron. "

You're basically completely wrong. Someone can not be an idiot, and still not know what a yacht is.

That's the kind of latent biases people are complaining about. The solution is not to pretend it doesn't exist, or call those people idiots (like so many "culturally priveleged" people like to do), it's to try and choose more neutral terminology and examples for the standardized tests.

Someone could make up a test that's perfectly grammatically correct that deals with things from black or urban culture that you'd do compartively poor on. It doesn't mean you're an idiot, that test would just be biased against you.

11/20/2006 5:31:22 PM

so what are these urban and black topics that would cause me to do poorly?

now I agree using a Yacht for an example is completely stupid but as I pointed out a junk could have been used in its place and an asian person would have no advantage over me.

being social aware of your surroundings transends race and culture. For example I have never been on or yacht or expect to afford to be on a yacht but ive seen Rush Hour and been forced to watch enough shitty tv about rich middle eastern oil tycoons to know what one is.

[Edited on November 20, 2006 at 5:39 PM. Reason : U]

11/20/2006 5:37:30 PM

culture

african american males are raised in a culture that looks down on education and glorifies crime. look at graduation rates for black males against white students or black females. i know growing up many of the black males that started out in the same AG and honors classes that I did eventually dropped out of the honors section and some dropped out of high school. why? because being smart wasnt cool.

11/20/2006 6:17:35 PM

Quote :

" it's to try and choose more neutral terminology and examples for the standardized tests. "

What are some examples of bad, biased questions?

11/20/2006 6:32:17 PM

Example of a "fair" question:

1) Skeet : Ass :: Basketball : ??

a) Hoop
b) Floor
c) Biggie Smalls
d) Cap

11/20/2006 6:46:42 PM

LOL

11/20/2006 6:49:22 PM

Lamont has 4 apples and gives 3 apples to Bill. How many apples does Lamont have?
1. 1 apple
2. 2 apples
3. 3 apples
4. Lamont is a victim of the sharecropping system that confined him to serf-like conditions of poverty.

11/20/2006 6:55:02 PM

Everybody in this thread is just SO racist. There is no difference between races. More blacks tend to have better fast twitch muscles because of slave ships killing off alot of weak genes but remember black is not a pure race. It is mixed up with some of everything and not just the Africans that came over on ships.

There is an economic difference between whites and blacks due to history making it that way (slavery, segragation, racism etc.) Remember that the parents of most black kids today were forced to go to bad schools and even today school zoning is still somewhat racist(ie Green Hope>>>Enloe).

Given the same opportunities race is not a factor it is all about the individual. Anything else is a false and ignorant stereotype.

11/20/2006 6:58:16 PM