Quote :

"Quebec students suspended for posting teacher's outburst Dave Rogers, CanWest News Service; Ottawa Citizen, Saturday, November 25, 2006 OTTAWA -- Quebec school officials are considering banning the use of cameras and cellphones in all classrooms after two students secretly recorded their teacher's angry outburst and posted three clips on YouTube. Jocelyn Blondin, chairman of the Commission scolaire des Portages-de-l'Outaouais, said Friday two Grade 9 students, one female and the other male, provoked the unnamed teacher last week at Ecole Secondaire Mont-Bleu in Gatineau, Que. The school convinced YouTube to remove the videos on Monday and suspended the students indefinitely this week because they knew that the school has a strict policy banning cellphones and digital cameras. Blondin said board officials will meet with the students and their parents Monday to determine when the suspensions will end. The students are in a special class because they have academic problems, Blondin said. He added other students told him the teacher was good at helping them improve their grades. The teacher, who has more than 30 years' experience, remains on stress leave. The teachers' union has asked the board to ban cameras and camera-equipped cellphones in all classrooms within its jurisdiction because they can be used to invade the privacy of teachers and students. Union vice-president Louis Belcourt said the students caused a disturbance throughout a class and recorded the teacher's reaction on a tiny digital camera when he ordered them to leave. School board officials said the camera was small enough to escape the teacher's notice for about 50 minutes. Blondin said this is the first time an Outaouais student has posted a video of a teacher on YouTube, but a similar incident happened about two weeks ago at a school north of Quebec City. "I think students are just trying to embarrass the teachers they don't like," Blondin said. "In the future, students will have to keep their cellphones in their pockets and use them outside of class." "

More evidence that teacher's unions are more interested in protecting bad teachers than educating children. The last thing they want is for parents to be able to see what's really going on in these classrooms.
If all of us are being forced to pay for gov't education, why not some accountability? I say put cameras in every classroom, let parents tune in via the web at anytime. If anything is ripe for sunshine laws, it's the gov't classroom.

11/27/2006 8:09:54 AM

what a horrible idea. as if enough freedom hasn't been stripped from the teachers as it is.

11/27/2006 8:17:26 AM

students will treat teachers with respect when society does.

11/27/2006 8:30:22 AM

Wait, so at this point it isn't against the rules for the students in Canada to remove cellphones or cameras from their bookbags or pockets and use them?

What kind of shit is that? You aren't allowed to have your cellphone on in class, that should be fucking common sense.

11/27/2006 8:48:40 AM

students will treat teachers with respect when society does.

11/27/2006 10:11:44 AM

maybe society will teach teachers with respect when they stop sucking

11/27/2006 10:15:46 AM

students will treat teachers with respect when they deserve it.

11/27/2006 10:16:17 AM

1. Make all schools year round
2. Result of 1 is that better pay is available for teachers
3. Being a teacher becomes a competitive job
4. Requirements to be a teacher increase
5. Better teachers = Students benefit

That would be my plan anyway. That and a very close look at curriculum.

11/27/2006 10:50:10 AM

Quote :

"1. Make all schools year round 2. Result of 1 is that better pay is available for teachers "

How's that? Are we going to take the bond money that we save from building less schools and give it to teachers as salary?

11/27/2006 11:17:27 AM

http://www.kidsource.com/education/teach.year.round.html

Quote :

"Thus, in the multi-track configuration, the enrollment in existing schools can be increased by one-third, or, alternatively, current class size can be reduced (Minnesota, 1999). Moreover, money which would otherwise have been spent on construction of new schools may be utilized to pay additional salary to teachers who elect to extend their contract on the multi-track year-round schedule. Therefore, the annual income of these teachers can conceivably be increased by one-third, and the effective supply of teachers can be increased by one-third (Liebman, 1959). Although each schedule has unique benefits and challenges for the teaching staff, neither schedule implies that the teacher will be working the entire year."

11/27/2006 11:30:49 AM

i guess less teachers could teach more students. but i doubt that would result in much, if any, increase in pay.

11/27/2006 11:31:08 AM

teachers get paid a ton when compared to their hours and amount they work during the year.

my gf is trying to get a teaching job in nyc and it pays $45,000 out the gate. more than im gonna make thats for damn sure. However it is for teaching in the bronx so we will see if its not shitsville.

11/27/2006 11:35:09 AM

bring back the paddle

11/27/2006 11:38:36 AM

^^ I bet she leaves after 1 semester.

$45,000 is not a lot in NY, and the Bronx is pretty much the worst kids.

And, I agree that the teachers shouldn't have cameras, if they don't want them. There are far more bad students than bad teachers, but the cameras will probably be used against the teachers more disproportionately than against the students.

[Edited on November 27, 2006 at 11:39 AM. Reason : ]

11/27/2006 11:38:46 AM

not to mention, there's a whole thing about filming minors without their permission

11/27/2006 1:05:38 PM

ParksNrec: The problem is schools are rarely paid for out of recurring funds. Bonds and one time moneys are not appropriate sources to increase the pay of teachers. To increase salaries, you need to either come up with more recurring funding or reduce the number of teachers. Year round schools do neither and would eat into existing recurring funds because of increased utility and maintenance costs.

11/27/2006 2:41:37 PM

Quote :

"$45,000 is not a lot in NY, and the Bronx is pretty much the worst kids. And, I agree that the teachers shouldn't have cameras, if they don't want them. There are far more bad students than bad teachers, but the cameras will probably be used against the teachers more disproportionately than against the students."

actually neither of these are true.

$45,000 is plenty unless you like to spend your money on worthless shit

and St. Louis actually has the worst school system as far as violence. Also she will most likely be teaching younger kids.

11/27/2006 2:45:19 PM

Anybody else find it funny that EarthDogg is selectively not pitching a shrill slippery slope fallacy?

11/27/2006 2:58:24 PM

uhhhh....

If you are so concerned with American "liberty", why the fuck do you care what's going on in Quebec? Canada has a useless Libertarian party too, let them handle it (unless you're trying to export REVOLUTION, LOL). Quebec is breaking away for more autonomy next week, and Le Bloc Quebecois will probably support the right to privacy in this case, though I bet you give more of a fuck about this than any Quebecois.

They shouldn't have cameras or cellphones or whatever in the primary school classroom, regardless. The teacher had a right to be mad and take action, regardless.

[Edited on November 27, 2006 at 3:01 PM. Reason : .]

11/27/2006 3:00:04 PM

Quote :

"I say put cameras in every classroom, let parents tune in via the web at anytime."

Yeah give idiotic parents more of a chance to flip out over the stupidest shit.

11/27/2006 3:06:57 PM

It's time to stop blaming the government for student's shortcomings and start turning more attention to the parents.

The problems begin at home.

11/27/2006 4:32:13 PM

^Fucking A

11/27/2006 4:40:37 PM

Quote :

"Yeah give idiotic parents more of a chance to flip out over the stupidest shit."

Hell must be 32 degrees Faranheit right now, because I actually agree with Kris.

Not only would this constitute a violation of both teachers' and students' privacy, as stated it would most likely be used against the teachers in nearly all cases. Nobody's gonna want to take responsibility for little Johny acting like a prick and throwing a temper tantrum, but as soon as the teacher so much as raises her voice, she's being "out of control" and "insensitive to his needs."

I'm amazed that you're even for this, Earthdogg. I thought you were all for privacy laws and all that other related stuff.

11/27/2006 5:14:01 PM

Raleigh is making elementary schools year-round, last I heard. It'll be a good sandbox to test ParksNrec's little idea. I think the concept that year-round school systems are more efficient is probably true, partially because it corresponds to the business cycle much better.

11/27/2006 5:37:54 PM

i got in trouble in 11th grade for recording my teacher cussing me out, they said mp3 recorders werent allowed. the teacher never got in trouble.

11/27/2006 6:00:00 PM

there was a situation in my middle school

the husband of a teacher came to talk to her about the insurance issues because some student fucked with her car, maybe keyed or sliced tires

and the kids get loud, and the husband goes in and yells at them using some 4 letter words and he was banned from the campus forever

no one recorded it, just some students went in to talk to a higher up

this has nothing to do with anything

11/27/2006 6:15:26 PM

Quote :

"I'm amazed that you're even for this, Earthdogg. I thought you were all for privacy laws and all that other related stuff."

We have a doggy daycare place in town that features webcams in each room. Customers can tune in via the web and monitor the care and treatment of their pets while they are away.

If we can monitor our pets, why can't we be allowed to monitor our kids? The teacher's union doesn't want its members facing the accountability that would come with parental observance.

Yes, Kris, some parents would complain about stupid stuff...but most parents want their kids to behave in class and learn. They also want teachers who are effective.

I don't want the gov't to educate our kids. A few years of parents being able to watch in shock at what is actually going on in gov't schools would result in demands for a voucher system.

11/27/2006 9:15:05 PM

i dont care if perverts watch my dog

11/27/2006 9:16:52 PM

^Good point. A system would have to be well designed to prevent that.

Also, fuck that idea, I hate it anyhow. You don't have visual confirmation of what's going on in most jobs. You solve the principal-agent conflict with other methods than 24/7 monitoring and it can be done in the classroom as well.

11/27/2006 9:26:48 PM

Quote :

"Yes, Kris, some parents would complain about stupid stuff..."

Some parents already complain about stupid stuff a hell of a lot now. Do what you're talking about and it'll happen constantly.

Quote :

"A few years of parents being able to watch in shock at what is actually going on in gov't schools would result in demands for a voucher system."

You know most of these parents went to gov't schools themselves right? It's not as if this would be some kind of drastic shock. I mean I'm sure it would be to you because you still don't seem to understand that most people don't shit their pants everytime they hear the word 'government' like you.

[Edited on November 27, 2006 at 9:50 PM. Reason : ]

11/27/2006 9:50:32 PM

Quote :

"A few years of parents being able to watch in shock at what is actually going on in gov't schools would result in demands for a voucher system."

But for the entirely wrong reasons. They'll see their "little angels" acting out of control and generaly being fuckups and they'll blame it all on the school. I recall more times in school when the cause of a parental complaint was a kid being an jackoff and getting rightfuly punished rather than a teacher or administrator abusing their position. I don't think cameras (especialy live feed) will provide any additional knowledge to truely concerned parents. They already know as those parents have the type of kids who will look out for and report staff abuse.

11/27/2006 9:55:58 PM

the problem isnt with giving parents some sort of oversight, its giving it to them in such a way that every parent that doesnt know shit about education can complain about all kinds of stupid shit that don't matter. and even if they didnt like things they probably wouldnt react the way you are suggesting on account of most people not being afraid of the government and vouchers sucking

11/27/2006 9:56:39 PM

Quote :

"Webcams at day care ease parents' concerns By Michelle Woo, The Arizona Republic Like millions who scroll through personal e-mail, book flight reservations online or browse daily headlines, Ashley Hickman admits to a habit of checking on her 17-month-old daughter, Sydney, while sitting at her office computer. A Webcam monitors the playroom at The Learning Curve preschool in Gilbert, Ariz. By Russell Gates, The Arizona Republic For the Arizona mom, it's easy to keep the family connected through an Internet video-broadcasting service her day-care center provides. With a user name and password, she can see her baby crawl, snack and toddle through the playroom. "I have to limit myself on how much I watch," says Hickman, a special education instructor who allows herself to peek in on her daughter about twice a day. "I'd always think, 'I wonder what Sydney is doing right now.' Then I'd log on and say, 'Oh look, she's napping.' " The ability to click into her child's life was something that drew Hickman to The Learning Curve (TLC) in Gilbert, Ariz. After researching countless child-care facilities, she decided to go with the center that offered her peace of mind. Internet cameras, or ease the separation anxieties of working parents while keeping the staff accountable for the safety and care of the children. The service, which is just beginning to catch on nationwide, caters to a growing demand for improved security technology in schools and other day care facilities. About 300 to 400 U.S. day-care centers have Webcams in place, says John Lewison, general manager of WatchMeGrow, a company that specializes in child-care viewing systems. The company has started reaching out to elementary and high schools that want to kick student monitoring up a notch, providing parents with video proof on whether their kids used lunch money for lunch, goofed off in class or even went to class at all. Hickman says she logs on to the Internet service primarily to check Sydney's eating routines and to see what time she wakes up from her naps, but also to "make sure everybody is doing what they're supposed to be doing." At TLC, Webcams are hidden only in the rooms of babies age 2 and younger. "When kids are 3 or 4, they can go home and say, 'Mommy, we did bubbles today,'" says TLC co-director Penny Kovara. "Babies can't articulate that." The Web cams, each about the size of a smoke detector, capture all the playroom action from the ceilings of the center, giving parents a wide-angle view. Parents cannot hear sounds when watching their children online, the service does not have zoom capabilities, and changing areas are never shown. Infant instructor Leslie Snider says she has never felt intimidated by the Webcams, and she even welcomes the service, seeing it as just another form of communication between staff members and parents like written daily logs and conferences. "

Quote :

"You know most of these parents went to gov't schools themselves right?"

Being forced to attend gov't school is a lot different than being forced to send your kids to a gov't school.

Quote :

"most people don't shit their pants everytime they hear the word 'government' like you. "

...Just as communists drop a log when they hear the word 'Freedom'

11/27/2006 10:01:17 PM

daycare is a lot fucking different than schools

and has anyone pointed out yet that this is in canada? do they have the same teachers union?

11/27/2006 10:11:29 PM

Quote :

"...Just as communists drop a log when they hear the word 'Freedom'"

Hey look guys somebody doesn't know anything about Communism

11/27/2006 10:14:16 PM

Quote :

"Being forced to attend gov't school is a lot different than being forced to send your kids to a gov't school."

Nobody forces anyone to go to a public school.

11/27/2006 10:37:55 PM

Quote :

"Nobody forces anyone to go to a public school."

To be fair, with the way taxes are and most laws, low income families by and large are forced to send their children to public schools.

11/27/2006 10:57:06 PM

Quote :

"canada? do they have the same teachers union?"

Who here thinks that U.S. Teacher Unions would welcome more parental scrutiny on their teacher's practices?

Quote :

"daycare is a lot fucking different than schools"

Oh My My...

Quote :

"Who's watching the class? By Greg Toppo, USA TODAY When students in Biloxi, Miss., show up this morning for the first day of the new school year, a virtual army of digital cameras will be recording every minute of every lesson in every classroom. Hundreds of Internet-wired video cameras will keep rolling all year long, in the hope that they'll deter crime and general misbehavior among the district's 6,300 students — and teachers. Almost anywhere they go these days, Americans are on camera: at work, on the road, at public events. Why should schools be different? Says Melinda Anderson of the National Education Association, the nation's largest teachers union: "This is a new area, so we don't have a lot of experience with it." She says Webcams could help connect schools and families, but in districts where contracts limit teacher observation, camera policies should reflect that. "Webcams would move us toward an environment of open-ended, all-day, all-the-time access to classrooms," she says. "You can argue that 'just watching it' does not interfere with teaching and learning, but if the watching results in a constant stream of complaints about teachers and their style, presentation of material, then it could become an interference.""

http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2003-08-10-webcams-usat_x.htm

Teacher Unions want contracts that "limit teacher observation"?? I guess it's public education as long as the public keep their noses out of it. If teachers are doing something stupid, I would hope someone would start doing some interfering.

In a private education system, if enough customers complain about a teacher' and their style, and presentation of material...they get replaced.

Quote :

"Nobody forces anyone to go to a public school."

Yea, the gov't just taxes the crap out of people so that many cannot afford to both pay taxes and pay to send their kids to private school.

11/27/2006 11:12:24 PM

Quote :

"To be fair, with the way taxes are and most laws, low income families by and large are forced to send their children to public schools."

Really? How expensive is home schooling?

Quote :

"Yea, the gov't just taxes the crap out of people so that many cannot afford to both pay taxes and pay to send their kids to private school."

I'm sure it's taxes that keep poor people from sending their kids to expensive private schools.
The big bad government is always holding you down!

11/28/2006 12:11:17 AM

EarthDogg is reaching salisburyboy levels of detachment from reality. He's starting to remind me of John Stossel. This isn't V For Vendetta. There isn't some great war against oppression and tyrrany to be won here (unless you're so far out there that you've lost track of reality, like salisburyboy), as exciting as it sounds, so stop trying to create one.

omg oppressive tax burden raaaarrrr......

You know why I'm not bothered? Because I am going to be the best parent I can for my kid, as EVERY parent should. I'm not going to blame the government for the shortcomings that I have ultimate control over in our kid's upbringings. Stop blaming the gov., the teachers, the unions, and fucking take responsibility yourself for the problems of the youth that cause the problems of the schools (that is, if you are or have been or plan on being a parent).



[Edited on November 28, 2006 at 12:48 AM. Reason : .]

11/28/2006 12:40:20 AM

Liberitarians are all about self-responsibility, unless of course it can be blamed on the government or the election system, then it's the big bad government holding them down.

11/28/2006 1:10:47 AM

what happened to taking responsiblity for your own actions?

11/28/2006 1:22:55 AM

Quote :

"Really? How expensive is home schooling? "

I swear to God Kris, weren't you in another thread like last week claiming that poor people can't afford to make their kids a sandwich because they work all the time? Now they can quit their jobs and homeschool?

Also, while I absolutely agree with you on this topic:

Quote :

"He's starting to remind me of John Stossel."

is hardly an insult to people leaning libertarian. What is your problem with John Stossel anyhow? I mean, other than disliking his politics, is their something wrong with his reporting?

11/28/2006 7:35:25 AM

Quote :

"Now they can quit their jobs and homeschool?"

You implied it was the only option, regardless of my stance in other threads, that is wrong.

11/28/2006 9:41:55 AM

I certainly did not imply it was the only option.

11/28/2006 9:45:51 AM

well the other guy did

11/28/2006 10:39:18 AM

True, but other guy != me
lol
Anyway, I was just pointing out that I thought your line of reasoning was inconsistent on the two subjects.

11/28/2006 10:46:18 AM

Quote :

"teachers get paid a ton when compared to their hours and amount they work during the year. my gf is trying to get a teaching job in nyc and it pays $45,000 out the gate. more than im gonna make thats for damn sure. However it is for teaching in the bronx so we will see if its not shitsville."

1) Teachers do NOT get paid a ton when compared to their hours and amount they work during the week. Have you ever talked to a teacher? They get in around 7:00, always work through lunch, and have plenty of work to grade when they get home. Then their's the prep work that goes into each class. Don't forget teacher conferences, after school and department meetings, and god forbid they also participate in clubs, sports, or other student activities.

Simply put, I haven't met a public school teacher that puts less than 60 hours a week into their profession. None that were worth a damn anyway....

2) 45K in NYC isn't shit. A buddy of mine was offered an entry level programming job in NYC for 60K, doing the same work he gets paid 30K for here in Raleigh. Everything up there is more expensive, like apartments which will run you $1500-2500 a month.

[Edited on November 28, 2006 at 11:31 AM. Reason : typo]

11/28/2006 11:31:03 AM

60 hours is stretching it. Not to mention that even if they were putting in 60 hour workweeks they're only doing it 9 months a year.

Also, my mom is a public high school teacher. She's a damned good teacher (she also teaches at college, but I'm excluding that pay here) and always gets fantastic results teaching even the dumbest of kids. She puts in time, sure, but not 60 hours a week. She also makes around $50,000 doing it, which isn't bad considering she lives in Athens, Georgia and the cost of living is pretty low.

11/28/2006 11:39:36 AM

Quote :

"Because I am going to be the best parent I can for my kid,"

Then why would you even think about putting your kid in a gov't school?

Kris is correct in that libertarians want more personal responsibility. That means is getting the meddling hand of gov't out of our lives as much as possible.

Education is too important to let politicians and bureaucrats run it. We throw more and more money at schooling with worse and worse results. High schools graduate barely 55% of their classes.

Government has a near monopoly on education. It is insulated from market pressures which makes it answerable basically only to the teacher's unions. The private sector can deliver important services much better and cheaper than the gov't.

We should repeal property taxes and let parents use the money to choose the schools that fit their values. Let parents put their kids in schools that teach them the subjects they want taught to their children.

11/28/2006 12:23:58 PM