This is not in soap box, or chit chat, because I'm 100% serious and I do not intend this to devolve into a religious debate or fiasco.


The problem- my parents are protestant, my brother has decided to become Byzantine orthodox (or is it Byzantine catholic? I really do not understand this thing as I was raised protestant myself).

My brother has decided to upset (I find this out this evening) almost all of our christmas traditions so he can go to church practically non stop. He's constnatly not allowed to eat this that or the other, it's the craziest set of rules I've ever heard of, but I dont honestly even know what they are (fully anyways). This christmas crap is the last straw with my folks, there are some of the nastiest fights now I've seen in a while.

But moving on,

my question is this, and I havent googled it because I'd rather ask someone (TWW is not the only place I"ll be asking), preferabbly someone with experience in this.

Is this normal for sosmeone who is Byzantine Orthodox? My brother is scarily different (he's always been christian, so it's not him becoming that that has changed him), to the point that from the outside looking in- it's almost very cultish. At least it seems so to me. He's ditched the band he was in for a while, he's practically ditching my family, he never goes out on weekends (freshman at state) other than to church constantly. All the people he hangs out with are now also members of this same Byzantine church. The icons are EVERYWHERE in his room, car, etc.

I dont care what he believes for the most part, obviously there are aspects i care about but overall it doesnt matter to me what faith or god he chooses to believe in, that's not the issue. But I want to beat some fucking sense into him about the way he's going about this, and have no idea how to even approach it, or if this is just how it is for all byzantine orthodox whoevers and this is just an unfortunate playout.

I guess the real question is, is this out of the ordinary for that religion and do i need to start being seriously concerned about who he's fallen in with, in addition to the crap he's doing now?

12/23/2006 11:58:35 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Catholic

12/24/2006 12:09:05 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liturgy

the only difference between a cult and a religion are the number of members it has

12/24/2006 12:50:59 AM

This is not out of the ordinary for religion at all.

I had a friend in high school that was a member of the Byzantine Catholic Church.

The Byzantine Catholic Church is different from the Roman Catholic Church. The Roman Catholic Church is very different from any Protestant Church. And then on top of that, any Orthodox practice is far more strict and rooted in ancient traditions than contemporary practices.

Your brother has just joined a religion that is older, more ritualized, and very different from the Protestant religion that you are use to, but it is far from out of the ordinary.

12/24/2006 1:18:11 AM

Hi LadyWolff,

I'm Eastern Orthodox. Byzantine Catholicism is an off-shoot of Eastern Orthodoxy and as such is actually quite different at the core. But to what is most important:

As someone who has relatives that do not share my faith, I can understand your perspective on the matter.

To the outsider, Eastern Orthodox practices are very ascetic and rigorous: we have strict fasts, long services, and many Orthodox follow a different calendar (Julian Calendar) which means that lots of holidays, like Christmas, are celebrated at a different time during the year. All of these elements combined can create a foreign air about Orthodoxy.

I'll send you a PM with some more info.

chrysostomos

12/24/2006 3:05:52 AM

Chrysostomos has a lot of it correct, and hopefully pm'ed you with more info. It is called Byzantine Catholic and the only church around here (Raleigh) is called Cyril Methodius in Cary. Ih have several friends that go there.

It is a very tight rite of Catholocisim and what you are describing of him is not at all unusual. Seasons within the Catholic church are treated with a ton of respect and reverence. Christmas/Advent is just one of several seasons.

On the other hand, I would suspect that at the moment, he is on a faith "high" since he is relatively new to this faith. Although it is wonderful that he has such strong faith, he will probably "cool down" after a little while (maybe even a year or more). "Cooling down" wouldn't mean he's loosing faith, just figuring out what things he may or may not pick up from Byzantine Catholocisim (at least those traditions considered "optional").

I would tell you to visit a service to see how it goes, but I myself have been afraid of attending despite my being Roman Catholic. Just hearing about how the service is makes me a bit weary of going (lots of deep rituals and traditions), and I wouldn't want you (or myself!) to be afraid of a reputable faith.

In the meantime, you might want to try to steer your family into seeing it from his side; he's going to all these services in recognition of what the Advent/Christmas season is all about. Perhaps it would drive your parents to go to their own services too.

Best of luck!

12/24/2006 11:21:47 AM

^ and ^^ Thank you both VERY much for the advice here and over PM.

I probably wont attend a service myself but we'll see, I might. (How welcoming are they of curious outsiders - ie family of those who go who are concerned? I assume they are but I want to check first, I dont have any interest in converting myself and dont want them to get the wrong impression.)


He's been a convert a while (i dont know how long) but hopefully he'll settle down on it soon. He did just start college and now has the "freedom" really to go do what he wants.


And ^ just as a side note, if you search the boards (which is silly i'll recap here), my parents do go to church. They're protestant and my father is a preacher. In fact he's preaching right about now. *lol*

[Edited on December 24, 2006 at 11:35 AM. Reason : .]

12/24/2006 11:35:12 AM

^a friend of mine who is a very strict Roman Catholic would go the the Byzantine Catholic church in Cary sometimes because he thought the Catholic churches in chapel hill were too liberal. I went with him one time just for the experience and everyone there was very friendly and welcoming. When i first got there(its a real small amount of people, so new faces stick out) a bunch of the members came up to me and were curious as to why i was there, and i just told i was there to learn more and to observe. They were really cool and gave me some tips and pointers as to what was goin to take place, and how it would be different then traditional services...

12/24/2006 11:44:55 AM

does anyone else find it funny that protestant parents are pissed about a kid becoming orthodox?

My parents are orthodox and I'm an agnostic with atheist tendencies, and they're not really happy about it, but they deal. But christians get pissed now when their kids become a DIFFERENT kid of christian?

"the only difference between a cult and a religion are the number of members it has"

and how much money it has and how rich and powerful its members are.

Look, if you're chanting the lord's prayer and the nicene crede and believing that a man died and rose again for your sins... you're in a cult. That doesn't have to be a bad thing, but that's a cult. period.

Everyone will be just fine. Don't fret over this. Your brother will decide to be some other religion soon, I bet, and it'll probably be protestant again.

There's your dirtygreek post of the year. Happy holidays bitches.

12/24/2006 5:14:48 PM

sounds like he's excited about growing up, trying to find himself, ect

nothing to worry about

12/24/2006 5:20:14 PM

Quote :

"Look, if you're chanting the lord's prayer and the nicene crede and believing that a man died and rose again for your sins... you're in a cult. That doesn't have to be a bad thing, but that's a cult. period. "

according to yougotme's logic, darn near 48% of the world is in a cult!

Perhaps yougotme can also tell us when we plan to pull out the Kool-aid...

12/25/2006 1:41:12 AM

Quote :

"ccording to yougotme's logic, darn near 48% of the world is in a cult!"

48% huh. Not even close. 35% at most if you include a whole bunch of questionably christian groupls (like Jehovah's witnesses, mormons, etc.). Still, yes, a large percentage of the world's population is christian.

12/25/2006 5:21:02 PM

Anyone who chooses religion over family isn't quite understanding Christianity.

12/25/2006 10:39:33 PM

Is there a hot girl involved with this? He should at least tell his folks he's doing it because of a hot girl.. At least the dad might would understand...

12/25/2006 10:41:59 PM

Quote :

"Anyone who chooses religion over family isn't quite understanding Christianity."

I seem to recall Jesus Himself saying, straight up, that if your family wasn't with Him and you gave them all up for Him, you were the man. Paraphrasing, of course.

Quote :

"Your brother will decide to be some other religion soon, I bet, and it'll probably be protestant again."

I've never seen any evidence of this. Plenty of people will change religions, but very, very few will do it several times.

Quote :

"Although it is wonderful that he has such strong faith, he will probably "cool down" after a little while (maybe even a year or more)."

I very much agree here. When I became Orthodox I was similarly gung-ho about it for a while, to an extent that a normal person generally can't maintain. Eventually I balanced out. I go to church, do the basic practices, and have an icon shelf, but I don't strictly fast except for Lent and I'll generally forgo a church service for some event with family or friends whenever there's a conflict.

If your brother doesn't calm down about it in a year or two (which he probably will), then it just means he's an unusually devout person who's found the faith that suits him, and that's hardly a bad thing and certainly doesn't mean he's in a cult in any but the broadest, DirtyGreek sense of the word (which is stupid). Think about the things that the Bible explicitly tells us to do. Now, if you actually did all of those things fairly rigorously, how easy do you think it would be to fit in easily with the rest of society? Practically the only way such people can have any meaningful social life is with other people in their religion, precisely because of things like this thread -- when even their family thinks they're getting weird, where else are they supposed to go?

12/25/2006 11:27:50 PM

Quote :

"I seem to recall Jesus Himself saying, straight up, that if your family wasn't with Him and you gave them all up for Him, you were the man. Paraphrasing, of course."

Jesus may have said something like this about non-Christian family, but he certainly did not advocate letting one's religious denomination and how you express your faith to alienate you from your Christian family.

12/26/2006 6:27:00 PM

My mom was raised Byzantine Orthodox and my dad Roman Catholic. We were raised Roman Catholic. The difference between the two is merely those of "rites" or tradition. As far as beliefs go, they are the same as the the Roman Catholic church.... they accept the authority of the Pope, they believe in the sacraments, etc (I bring up these things not to start a religious debate or anything... I'm just saying all the beliefs that are held by Catholics that set them apart from the Protestant churches are believed by Byzantine Catholics as well).

I have been to a Byzantine church on several occasions, and they hold onto many old traditions that would seem unfamiliar to even a Catholic. Much of their mass is chanted not said, when you receive communion they placed it in your mouth, women wore head coverings (although my mom and sister didn't and they weren't stared at or in any way made uncomfortable about it).

But as to your brothers actions... it seems like he has either truly found something that makes him really happy and has taken it a bit overboard or he is simply trying to get some attention for whatever reason and is using this because he knows it upsets your parents. I'd lean toward the second one if he's actually having big fights with them.

[Edited on December 26, 2006 at 7:09 PM. Reason : .]

12/26/2006 7:07:36 PM

Specifics aside, take any opportunity that could have presented itself and think of the changes it could have caused had he adopted it. Should you be concerned? Only if it affects his academics and/or long-term goals (whatever that may be). Not sure how his college is being paid for, but if you want to knock some sense into somebody, do it through their financial stuff. Usually making a person realize they need to pay rent (or an equivalent) on their own brings them back to reality.

12/26/2006 10:06:24 PM

^Whoa, that seems like it could backfire. It's not like he's doing something really destructive like drugs or theft, which I could see cutting off the money to send a message. I have had many friends with parents who did the "do it my way or I'll cut off the money" trick, and a few times it worked, but I've also seen some total alienation result. One friend of mine had her Dad pull that with her wedding (he wanted it in a certain church), she told him she was doing it her way whether he liked it or not, he refused to pay for anything, she got married anyway, he didn't attend, and they haven't spoken since then (more than 5 years ago.) She has two daughters now that he has never even seen. It's not worth that.

I think your effort to learn more about his religion is laudable. He is becoming an adult, and as long as he is living his life in an effort to be a true and honest person, you should honor that.

12/26/2006 11:36:20 PM

cutting your kid off because he changed to a different but mainstream denomination of christianity is rediculous

12/26/2006 11:59:11 PM

1. My parents are not going to cut my brother off, in any sense of the word.
2. They are not angry because he's not protestant, they're angry about the way that he is treating them and our family traditions because of his new religion. It's not really "what" religion it is, however I thought it was relevant to ask if this was normal for what he had chosen.
3. once again, they are not angry at him because he is catholic not protestant. you've missed the point .

12/28/2006 12:48:26 AM

^^^,^^,^
Ack, missed inserting a sentence. Cut off as an extreme measure if and only if the person goes extreme (this does not count as extreme ... only if it gets MUCH worse).

Has anybody tried going with him and participating?

[Edited on December 28, 2006 at 5:55 AM. Reason : .]

12/28/2006 5:55:43 AM

Even the ancient greeks had water to wine, immaculate conception, and resurrection as common miracles long before Jesus. As long as this guy doesn’t switch to scientology, then he hasn’t gone round the bend any farther than anyone else who practices the religion they grew up in.

12/28/2006 8:42:27 AM