In college football, a team runs a fake field goal, the holder catches the snap and tries to run... why isnt he down when he catches the ball and his knee is already down?


Thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiings to think about.











and I know why so dont bother, but its somethiiiiiiiiiiiiiiing to think about

12/30/2006 7:09:17 PM

12/30/2006 7:20:27 PM

man, if this gets locked I am going to lead a fucking revolt against that douche bag

12/30/2006 7:24:41 PM

12/30/2006 7:27:55 PM

I think you have just turned college football on it's head.


Things will never be the same.

12/30/2006 7:28:17 PM

Why isnt spiking the ball intentional grounding?



thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiings to think about

12/30/2006 7:29:05 PM

I have actually thought about that a lot.

12/30/2006 7:38:00 PM

If the refs are considered part of the playing field, and thus not "out of bounds", and a ball hits a ref who is standing on the sidelines, and the ball bounces back in bounds, is it a live ball?


(and I have seen this happen)



thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiings to think about

[Edited on December 30, 2006 at 7:42 PM. Reason : d]

12/30/2006 7:40:34 PM

the first two are exceptions to the rules and I think the ref is part of the field so if the ball were to hit him, its like hitting the ground and the ball is dead.

12/30/2006 7:48:40 PM

if the ball hits the ref its in play

12/30/2006 7:54:16 PM

how come in baseball they have four bases?

12/30/2006 7:56:02 PM

It's sweet when some dude is running and uses the ref as a screen so they don't get tackled.

12/30/2006 8:01:26 PM

^ or the navy pick today when the linebacker was clearly hidden from Ryan's view when he threw the ball, and the linebacker popped up and made the interception

12/30/2006 9:00:58 PM

Quote :

"Why isnt spiking the ball intentional grounding?"

from 2006 NCAA football rules and interpretations, rule 7 (snapping and passing the ball), section 3 (forward pass) article 2-d:

Quote :

"If, to conserve time, the pass is not thrown immediately after the ball is first controlled after the snap or is thrown after the ball has touched the ground. If, to conserve time, the pass is thrown where no eligible Team A player has a reasonable opportunity to catch it (A.R. 7-3-2-II-VIII) [S35 and S9]."

this is odd to me because i thought i the distinction was whether the passer was under pressure. that makes much more sense to me, explains why nfl passers (mark brunell, for example) will sometimes throw out of bounds from within the tackle box immediately after the play starts because they don't like the coverage. maybe the nfl rule is different.

[Edited on December 30, 2006 at 9:34 PM. Reason : quote tags]

12/30/2006 9:34:22 PM

okay here is the nfl rule on grounding:
http://www.nfl.com/fans/rules/intentionalgrounding

Quote :

"Intentional grounding will be called when a passer, facing an imminent loss of yardage due to pressure from the defense, throws a forward pass without a realistic chance of completion."

so no imminent pressure means no grounding, so a spike is not grounding

two situations where this matters:

A) immediately after the snap your first receiver falls down and your second is double covered. the rush is picked up, at least for now. in the nfl, you can throw the ball out of bounds.

B) you bobble the snap. again, the rush is picked up, for now, but the play has gone to crap (and maybe this is 1st down with 0:04 to go). in the nfl, you can still spike the ball. the ncaa rulebook specifically disallows that here:

approved ruling 7-3-2-VIII (ncaa)

Quote :

"With seconds remaining in a half and the ball declared ready for play, Team A quickly lines up and the ball is legally snapped to quarterback A12, who throws the ball forward directly to the ground. Team A’s formation was not legal at the snap. When the ball becomes dead, two seconds show on the game clock. RULING: Illegal formation. Penalty—Five yards from the previous spot. The clock starts on the next snap."

[Edited on December 30, 2006 at 10:10 PM. Reason : ncaa AR]

12/30/2006 9:45:23 PM

Quote :

"In college football, a team runs a fake field goal, the holder catches the snap and tries to run... why isnt he down when he catches the ball and his knee is already down?"

from 2006 NCAA football rules and interpretations, rule 4 (Ball in Play, Dead Ball, Out of Bounds), section 1 (Ball in Play—Dead Ball), article 3 (Ball Declared Dead), part b:

Quote :

"When any part of the runner’s body, except his hand or foot, touches the ground or when the runner is tackled or otherwise falls and loses possession of the ball as he contacts the ground with any part of his body, except his hand or foot. (Exception: The ball remains alive when an offensive player has simulated a kick or is in position to kick the ball held for a place kick by a teammate. The ball may be kicked, passed or advanced by rule) (A.R. 4-1-3-I)."

the approved ruling (4-1-3-I) mentioned above notes that if you force a fumble from the holder while he has the ball, the ball is still live (that's what happened in the clemson/wake game, right?)

of course, this is just the rule, it doesn't rationalize the exception...

12/30/2006 10:09:28 PM

yeah, this wasnt a rule thread, I realize all of the rules, more just like you said, to think about the weird, often subjective exceptions to rules

12/30/2006 11:09:33 PM

these rules are not really subjective because the offense doesn't gain an advantage in either situation, thus the defense isn't put at a disadvantage which is the reasoning behind most fouls in all sports.

does it really matter to the kick attempt if the holders knee is on the ground or two inches off the ground. No. plus the referee is positioned at least 7 yards from the holder so he'd never have a good look to make the call.

i would actually think the offense gains an advantage if intentional grounding was called on spikes. the enforcement of the penalty would take at least 1 minute, basically a timeout for the offense, the result of the penalty, the ball is placed at the spot of the throw (about 1-2 yards behind the line of scrimmage) and loss of down (big deal, it was already a loss of down). I venture a guess that they used to call intentional groundings on spikes and noticed this after the first season, thus the rule change/interpretation.

[Edited on December 30, 2006 at 11:18 PM. Reason : .]

12/30/2006 11:17:06 PM

^ no no, you dont understand what I meant by subjective... I didnt mean impartial, I meant that some of the exceptions require more of a judgment call on the officials rather than a black and white ruling, like "facing an imminent loss of yardage due to pressure from the defense" etc

12/30/2006 11:19:43 PM

also the nfl version of grounding is pretty simple in that the rule is about avoiding a sack, not about time management. they could call it "intentional grounding to avoid a loss of yards".

obviously the nfl version of the holder not being down also makes sense because he isn't down by contact.

so basically the nfl rule book makes sense here and the ncaa one is wonky, which we already knew (see also running the clock between posessions)

then you have all the rules that only come into effect in the last 2 minutes, which is needlessly complicated in my opinion

12/30/2006 11:24:08 PM

oh yeah, the ncaa's clause stating the holder is not "down" is necessary for place kicks to be possible at all. with out it, all FG and PAT attempts would end rather prematurely, fakes aside.

12/30/2006 11:31:26 PM

well, I could see them saying something like, the player is down, cant advance the ball, but the ball is still active or some shit like that

12/30/2006 11:34:41 PM