...what do you think it means?

I think it's a nifty replacement for the word Islam that you can use to talk shit about Islam but appear less intolerant at the same time.

12/31/2006 4:26:14 PM

I think it's more likely that the people who coined it knew that associating someone with fascism drums up support for fighting that someone.

If it was really an issue of tolerance, they would've dropped the Islam part entirely and run with pseudofascist, neofascist, something like that.

While I don't like the term and it isn't terribly accurate, I don't think it's as far off the mark as some have made it out to be in some situations.

[Edited on December 31, 2006 at 6:10 PM. Reason : ]

12/31/2006 6:10:06 PM

perhaps it's just too-broadly applied?

12/31/2006 8:11:57 PM

im pretty sure that fascism does not equal theocracy.

12/31/2006 11:00:50 PM

Well it sure as fuck seems like the base all their actions on their religion

12/31/2006 11:15:47 PM

A lot of what they do they claim is part of their religion, when...it isn't.

[Edited on December 31, 2006 at 11:36 PM. Reason : ]

12/31/2006 11:36:11 PM

^^ They who?

Bin Laden didn't attack us for religious reasons, the Iraqis didn't attack us for religious reasons, the Iranians, NKs, and the Taliban don't hate us for religious reasons (not primarily, at least).

They use religion to rally their base, just like our people use religion to rally the country together, but religion is not the reason that those organizations exist.

[Edited on January 1, 2007 at 12:12 AM. Reason : ]

1/1/2007 12:11:24 AM

Hilter used religion to rally his base.

[Edited on January 1, 2007 at 12:27 AM. Reason : oh and happy new years you freakin dorks, whats your excuse.]

1/1/2007 12:26:54 AM

Quote :

"I think it's more likely that the people who coined it knew that associating someone with fascism drums up support for fighting that someone."

Yeah, that's what the internets said.

^^Who uses religion to rally us?

[Edited on January 1, 2007 at 1:25 AM. Reason : ?]

1/1/2007 1:25:21 AM

you don't count

you're a college aged heathen

ain't nobody trying to rally you

people are rallying against you though

heathen

1/1/2007 1:59:25 AM

Quote :

"the Iraqis didn't attack us for religious reasons"

IRAQ ATTACKED THE USA?

1/1/2007 5:14:02 AM

Quote :

"They use religion to rally their base, just like our people use religion to rally the country together"

well i sure as fuck dont see our people going on suicide missions

1/1/2007 6:52:19 AM

Quote :

"IRAQ ATTACKED THE USA?"

OEP, contrary to what Saudi Television might tell you, we went to war with Iraq.

1/1/2007 8:51:29 AM

^^ That's because we don't tell them to. I bet there are at least a few soldiers who would, if ordered.

1/1/2007 2:43:33 PM

Suicide bombing comes from desperation and force disparity, not religion.

Quote :

"Who uses religion to rally us?"

They don't use it on all of "us," obviously. You've got to play to different sentiments.

1/1/2007 2:50:35 PM

Quote :

"OEP, contrary to what Saudi Television might tell you, we went to war with Iraq."

WTF are you talking about? moron said that Iraq attacked the USA. WTF did that happen?

1/1/2007 4:33:07 PM

^I think bgmims was still drunk when he posted or something.

1/1/2007 5:52:48 PM

Quote :

"Bin Laden didn't attack us for religious reasons"

Huh? Read bin Laden fatwah. It's pretty damn religious.

Quote :

"First, for over seven years the United States has been occupying the lands of Islam in the holiest of places, the Arabian Peninsula, plundering its riches, dictating to its rulers, humiliating its people, terrorizing its neighbors, and turning its bases in the Peninsula into a spearhead through which to fight the neighboring Muslim peoples.[...] Third, if the Americans' aims behind these wars are religious and economic, the aim is also to serve the Jews' petty state and divert attention from its occupation of Jerusalem and murder of Muslims there.[...] All these crimes and sins committed by the Americans are a clear declaration of war on God, his messenger, and Muslims. And ulema have throughout Islamic history unanimously agreed that the jihad is an individual duty if the enemy destroys the Muslim countries. This was revealed by Imam Bin-Qadamah in "Al- Mughni," Imam al-Kisa'i in "Al-Bada'i," al-Qurtubi in his interpretation, and the shaykh of al-Islam in his books, where he said: "As for the fighting to repulse [an enemy], it is aimed at defending sanctity and religion, and it is a duty as agreed [by the ulema]. Nothing is more sacred than belief except repulsing an enemy who is attacking religion and life." On that basis, and in compliance with God's order, we issue the following fatwa to all Muslims: The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies -- civilians and military -- is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque and the holy mosque [Mecca] from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim. This is in accordance with the words of Almighty God, "and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together," and "fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God." [...] We -- with God's help -- call on every Muslim who believes in God and wishes to be rewarded to comply with God's order to kill the Americans and plunder their money wherever and whenever they find it. We also call on Muslim ulema, leaders, youths, and soldiers to launch the raid on Satan's U.S. troops and the devil's supporters allying with them, and to displace those who are behind them so that they may learn a lesson."

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/terrorism/international/fatwa_1998.html

1/1/2007 6:25:09 PM

Islam is the mask.

1/1/2007 6:42:33 PM

Quote :

"First, for over seven years the United States has been occupying the lands of Islam in the holiest of places"

Look at his main reason.

1/1/2007 7:07:15 PM

more like Abrahamofacism

...you lot should and keep all this nonsense up, so that the Sino-Indian civilisations can go ahead and reclaim their might in the world

1/1/2007 7:13:20 PM

Yeah, a base in Saudi Arabia with the consent of Saudi Arabia's government is 'occupation'.

1/1/2007 7:17:24 PM

^ hey, i am not saying that i agree with him!

but, if it makes you feel that he is at least logical: he also considers the saudi gov as infidels, and wants to overthrow the royal family. [for being so buddy-buddy with the dubya family]

1/1/2007 7:44:17 PM

Quote :

"WTF are you talking about? moron said that Iraq attacked the USA. WTF did that happen?"

honestly(and i know you dont care), i dont usually like many of your posts, but i thought the same thing

1/1/2007 8:15:35 PM

Origins and Usage

Quote :

"The origins of the term are unclear but appear to date back to an article which was published on September 8, 1990 in The Independent. In the article, 'Construing Islam as a language,' Malise Ruthven wrote: 'Nevertheless there is what might be called a political problem affecting the Muslim world. In contrast to the heirs of some other non-Western traditions, including Hinduism, Shintoism and Buddhism, Islamic societies seem to have found it particularly hard to institutionalise divergences politically: authoritarian government, not to say Islamo-fascism, is the rule rather than the exception from Morocco to Pakistan.' On the other hand, Albert Scardino of the The Guardian attributes the term to an article by Muslim scholar Khalid Duran in the Washington Times, where he used it to describe the push by some Islamist clerics to 'impose religious orthodoxy on the state and the citizenry.' The related term, Islamic fascism, was adopted by journalists including Stephen Schwartz and Christopher Hitchens, who intended it to refer to Islamist extremists, including terrorist groups such as al Qaeda, although he more often tends to use the phrases 'theocratic fascism' or 'fascism with an Islamic face' (a play on Susan Sontag's phrase 'fascism with a human face,' referring to the declaration of martial law in Poland in 1981). (qtd. in Reference.com)."

[Edited on January 1, 2007 at 8:18 PM. Reason : Ital.]

1/1/2007 8:16:47 PM

Bridget lost credibility with...

Quote :

"^^Who uses religion to rally us?"

1/1/2007 10:14:07 PM

i think know its safe to say that everyone that posts on TWW Soap Box has lost credibility. Everyone that posts here has either posted something dumb and/or flamed some other person for having different views on things.

1/1/2007 10:17:39 PM

Quote :

"I think it's a nifty replacement for the word Islam that you can use to talk shit about Islam but appear less intolerant at the same time. (BridgetSPK)."

Yep, academic, author, and postmodernist Malise Ruthven and Muslim scholar Khalid Duran are the most likely culprits. I'd bet it really burns your ass that the term in question evidently did not originate from a conservative.

1/2/2007 12:30:33 AM

^its completely unpossible for words to be appropriated for different uses

1/2/2007 12:45:31 AM

^ Yes, such as "appeasement."

1/2/2007 1:17:23 AM

Quote :

" moron said that Iraq attacked the USA"

Umm... I didn't say that Iraq attacked the USA, I said that the Iraqis attacked (and are attacking) us (our troops), which is the nature of the ongoing conflict in Iraq.

1/2/2007 1:44:57 AM

umm...Iraqi 'troops' fought the US for like a day or two. now its insurgents (not just Iraqis). basiclly another Afganistan but this time they are fighting the US not the Soviets...but oddly enough they probably all got their training from the CIA, just like they did against the Soviets.

1/2/2007 7:34:56 AM

Quote :

"Islam is the mask."

Mask for what?

1/2/2007 7:42:02 AM

Quote :

"HUR: Bridget lost credibility with... "^^Who uses religion to rally us?""

I haven't felt rallied, let alone rallied by religion.

I asked that question so y'all could point out these instances that I missed. I don't pick up on the subtleties very well.

So...when was religion used to rally us?

Quote :

"hooksaw: Yep, academic, author, and postmodernist Malise Ruthven and Muslim scholar Khalid Duran are the most likely culprits. I'd bet it really burns your ass that the term in question evidently did not originate from a conservative."

I didn't intend for this thread to be wildly partisan. Sorry you missed that.

[Edited on January 2, 2007 at 1:43 PM. Reason : sss]

1/2/2007 1:41:33 PM

Remember the films of american troops in vietnam using zippo lighters to burn down grass huts?

That what I want to do.

To this thread.

Right now.

1/2/2007 3:00:55 PM

Quote :

"Mask for what?"

bin Laden wants to create a modern day Ottoman Empire in the Middle East with him and his family as its head.

1/2/2007 3:43:29 PM

Quote :

"Remember the films of american troops in vietnam using zippo lighters to burn down grass huts? That what I want to do. To this thread. Right now. "

NICE

1/2/2007 9:06:34 PM

^x4 Yeah, right.

Quote :

"I think it's a nifty replacement for the word Islam that you can use to talk shit about Islam but appear less intolerant at the same time (BridgetSPK)."

No politics here ^.

[Edited on January 2, 2007 at 10:50 PM. Reason : ]

1/2/2007 10:49:57 PM

Liberals have no business whining about others being demonized with the "facist" label after decades of misusing and abusing the term in relation to Republican rule. Every Republican president since Nixon has been labeled a fascist in some form or another. If they aren't corporate fascists, then they must be imperialistic fascists or some other form of a fascist, according to every new generation of liberals who don't understand the meaning of the word.

1/3/2007 1:20:49 AM

^ So true. Your post reminded me of a book by Harry Stein. In one of the chapters, he describes how his liberal friends turned on him and even called him a fascist--just as you said--when he dared to deviate from their ideological groupthink.

1/3/2007 1:56:26 AM

Quote :

"bin Laden wants to create a modern day Ottoman Empire in the Middle East with him and his family as its head."

Not exactly accurate. He wants to topple the existing regimes in Islamic countries, yes. And he does want them to unite against the Great Satan or what have you. But while he may want them all to be one country, and while he may want to rule the same, I've heard nothing to suggest that's one of his major sticking points.

"Islamofascism" is accurate insofar as it describes the desires of some islamists to unify (or at least bring into close allegiance) the Muslim world by force. It does not, insofar as I have seen, seek to dramatically expand the "borders of Islam," and it does not necessarily seek to create a giant, pan-Muslim nation.

Quote :

"I haven't felt rallied, let alone rallied by religion. I asked that question so y'all could point out these instances that I missed. I don't pick up on the subtleties very well. So...when was religion used to rally us?"

As a few people have pointed out in one way or another, "us" isn't all-encompassing of Americans. No, it didn't rally you, and that's hardly a surprise. But whether you want to deal with it or not, for whatever reason, a large number of Americans are religious in a fairly traditional sense, and are thus much more easily rallied by the idea of religion than you are.

Now, most of the time, religion is only used as a direct ploy to rally the population by (what a shock!) religious figures. Preachers/ministers/priests/whatever from the local parish variety up through the internationally known televangist type are frequently enough prone to support certain US international ventures. Now, you might argue that these are the dumber ones doing this, but that's neither here nor there; the point is, a lot of religious figures nutted themselves when Israel got created and will do whatever they can to defend that nation. It's far from being secret that many of Israel's most influential supporters are right-wing American Christians. Others are promoted by what is probably an antiquated Crusader ideal of us vs. the Infidel, and still others are simply conservative all the way around and thus prone to a "My country, right or wrong" mentality."

The point is, a hell of a lot of Americans are influenced by these people, who will gladly use religion (since it is their business, after all) to rally supporters.

Many others, of course, aren't so religious. On these you have to use idealism (ex, fascists! They're bad! And now they're Muslim!) or nationalism (They attacked us!) or something else, or, in the case of people like you, nothing at all -- because you are in small enough numbers that they can afford to ignore you.

1/3/2007 3:13:30 AM

^ Exactly right.

I'm saddened though that GrumpyGOP had to spell all that out, so that you could understand it.

1/3/2007 3:23:38 AM

She'll claim that she knew all that, but was really asking some far deeper question.

And while the first part may be true, she was, in fact, asking the very superficial question that I answered, and wasn't being "deep" or "provocative" by asking it as she did. If she wanted an answer to a deeper question, she should have asked it, because frankly she isn't far enough along in her competent argumentative ability to be trying to set a trap that way.

1/3/2007 3:44:09 AM

"Islamofascism" really, to me, sounds like a meaty sandwich.

1/3/2007 12:48:16 PM

^ It is sweet at first, but the aftertaste is quite bitter.

1/3/2007 1:22:56 PM

^^^^Are you really saddened? Really? You must be sad all the time, considering we're swimming in a sea of stupidity. Or is there something specific to me?

^^^I'm so obviously not asking a deeper question. I was genuinely interested in this rallying, and I still don't see it. Remember, I'm looking for something to support this:

Quote :

"moron: They use religion to rally their base, just like our people use religion to rally the country together, but religion is not the reason that those organizations exist."

moron could admit he was just blabbering, but in his saddened state, he may not be able to post for a while.

1/3/2007 6:24:06 PM

Quote :

"I didn't intend for this thread to be wildly partisan. Sorry you missed that."

BridgetSPK

The Soap Box: Where TWW-ers come for nonpartisan commentary.

[Edited on January 3, 2007 at 11:38 PM. Reason : .]

1/3/2007 11:38:25 PM

^Roll your eyes all you want. You made the wrong assumptions. The Soap Box isn't always about left/right, liberal/conservative, Democrat/Republican, etc... And, when it is about that, the people who post here don't consistently identify with the same side. That's why these comments don't apply to mein this context:

Quote :

"hooksaw: Yep, academic, author, and postmodernist Malise Ruthven and Muslim scholar Khalid Duran are the most likely culprits. I'd bet it really burns your ass that the term in question evidently did not originate from a conservative."

Quote :

"hooksaw: No politics here ^. "

Quote :

"Prawn Star: Liberals have no business whining about others being demonized with the "facist" label after decades of misusing and abusing the term in relation to Republican rule. Every Republican president since Nixon has been labeled a fascist in some form or another. If they aren't corporate fascists, then they must be imperialistic fascists or some other form of a fascist, according to every new generation of liberals who don't understand the meaning of the word."

(By the way, in my original post, I'm using the the word nifty sincerely. )

1/4/2007 12:04:26 AM

^^^

Ummm... The whole deal with Republicans being anti-gay and anti-abortion is mostly to "trick" the religious people in the country to like them. If they were really anti those things, they would have really tried to pass legislation at some point in the past 6 years where they were in control to "fix" those issues.

Then you have made-up issues like the war on Christmas, the faux-supporting for Creationism/ID (they don't seriously try to push these things through, but they superficially support them to make people think they are religious). And the whole Terri Schiavo issues, and the term "culture of life" itself is an appeal to the religious right. Then there was all the "controversy" about the 10 commandments, which was a tiny, tiny issue that got a lot of attention, because it gave the politicians more face time with religious stuff. And you have Bush's casual statements about how God told him to do what he does, etc.

You'd pretty much have to be looking the other way to NOT see how politicians use religion superficially, to further their cause, and garner support.

1/4/2007 1:51:22 AM

^^


Don't like it when somebody continually pops up and fucks with you? That's ANNOYING, isn't it, troll?

[Edited on January 4, 2007 at 2:27 AM. Reason : . One more time: ]

1/4/2007 2:26:26 AM