Illegals are killing more Americans on the highways than Muslim terrorists are in the middle East. The News & Observer tries to gin up some sympathy for them in this article. I wonder if some illegal killed one of Marti or Kristin's family, if they would include all of the justification quoted below in their next article on the subject.

Quote :

"Hispanic DWIs rooted in immigrants' culture Lifestyle, isolation figure in driving drunk Marti Maguire and Kristin Collins, Staff Writers News & Observer, April 1,2007 Hispanic leaders are struggling to stem a problem that they say is rooted in the waves of young men who leave the calming influences of church and family to labor alone in a new country. "It's difficult because you're trying to compete with the loneliness," said Tony Asion, public safety director for El Pueblo, an Hispanic advocacy group. "Then, as some learn, more come, and we start again." Last month, a Johnston County father and son died in a fiery crash authorities say was caused by Luciano Tellez, 31, an illegal immigrant from Mexico. Dwane Braswell, 35, and his son Jerry, 9, were riding in a tractor-trailer cab on N.C. 210 in the Cleveland community of Johnston County when Tellez struck the tractor and rolled it into a ditch, where it caught fire. Empty beer cans were found in Tellez' car, but authorities say it is impossible to know whether he was drunk. It was the latest in a string of such accidents caused by Hispanic men. In February in Salisbury, a woman who was eight months pregnant and her unborn child were killed. In October, it was two college students and a high school boy. In January 2006, a man from El Salvador killed a Hillsborough woman in a head-on crash and fled, leaving an injured passenger in his own car. Researchers say drunken driving among Hispanics is at least partially explained by demographics. As in many places where immigration is fairly recent, the Hispanic population in North Carolina is young and dominated by men -- both factors that make them statistically more likely to drive drunk. Bobby Dunn, who counsels Spanish-speaking DWI convicts in Johnston and Wilson counties, said his clients are often young men far from home with money in their pockets for the first time. Many were too poor to have cars in Mexico, so they have little experience behind the wheel. They also see drinking as a way of showing their manhood. "The magic number is 12," Dunn said, or "un doce" in Spanish. "If you can drink 12 beers, you're a man." Others say heavy drinking is part of a lifestyle dominated by long work days building homes, painting or picking crops. Walking down Buck Jones Road to his apartment in West Raleigh, Alberto Gonzalez figured he would drink most of the 12-pack he had just bought that night, even though it was a weeknight. Gonzalez, 29, said he hadn't given much thought to spending a night without a beer in hand. "I just sit and drink," he said. "Maybe a friend will come by. Other than work, this is what I do." Hernandez was part of an early wave of young men who came to North Carolina to pick tobacco. There were so few Hispanics in North Carolina then, he said, he couldn't find a store that sold hot peppers or corn tortillas. He had been a drinker in Mexico, he said, but it got worse in the United States. He didn't have a family to tend to, and he felt very alone in a place where no one understood him. "When you are young, you don't think anything will happen to you," he said. "When you have a family, you care more about your life." By some measures, DWI accidents and citations among Hispanics are actually diminishing. The pressure to reverse the trend is intense. Each fatality brings calls for deportations and tighter immigration controls. Luke Steele, 49, adds up the deaths and sees a growing problem that stems from immigration. He said his daughter lost her college roommate to a Hispanic drunken driver in October. Steele, a longtime fire rescue worker, also remembers a 1991 wreck in which a teenage girl was killed by an illegal immigrant who "skipped town before the case ever went to trial." "We've still got plenty of stupid white, black, pink and purple people that drive drunk. That's plenty to go around," he said. "The reality is if they weren't here, they could not kill people [while] driving drunk." After the March wreck in Johnston County, U.S. Rep. Sue Myrick, a Charlotte Republican, reintroduced a bill that would require the deportation of all immigrants convicted of drunken driving. And anti-immigration groups have seized on the issue as an effective marketing strategy for their cause. "The effect on the labor force is real, but it's indirect," said Mark Krikorian, director of the Washington-based Center for Immigration Studies, which favors tighter controls on immigration. "Whereas, an illegal alien who drives drunk and kills some newlywed couple is tangible." Many Hispanics have not grown up with anti-drunken-driving messages, and it will take time for the ideas to take hold. "It's not something that you can do easily," Asion said. "If it was, then the U.S. population would have already done it.""

http://www.newsobserver.com/141/story/559842.html

4/3/2007 12:21:14 PM

We are clearly paying them too much if they can afford alcohol and a car.

4/3/2007 12:23:33 PM

I saw that and wondered if next week would be

Sexual harassment is rooted in immigrants' culture

4/3/2007 12:35:06 PM

I don't think the article is trying to gain sympathy for them.

I think it's trying to help find a rational solution to a new problem.

4/3/2007 12:39:01 PM

The first step to fixing a problem is understanding it.

4/3/2007 12:52:51 PM

i dont live in raleigh anymore and while i agree ^ i highly doubt the N&O has run any major front page story or any story for that matter about the families of those killed by these people. this story is similar to the one that helped me to finally convince my family to cancel their subscription, some story about two Shaw students who were from the carribean somewhere and who ended up in jail and it was somehow americas fault. the N&O seems to have a problem getting its priorities straight, sympathy for these poor immigrants who cant seem to stop drinking and driving should not be included in the same story about the victims of their actions...

4/3/2007 1:03:54 PM

i saw that headline when i read the paper on sunday and i thought

"looks like they're begging for editorial response...here comes the outraged letters"

4/3/2007 1:04:06 PM

Quote :

"The first step to fixing a problem is understanding it."

they drive drunk and kill people...understand?

OH NO! THEY ARE LONELY! HAVE SYMPATHY FOR THEM! THEY ARE THE REAL VICTIMS HERE

4/3/2007 1:04:10 PM

Quote :

""The magic number is 12," Dunn said, or "un doce" in Spanish. "If you can drink 12 beers, you're a man.""

Pussies.

4/3/2007 1:08:13 PM

^^Wow. I thought the exact same thing when I read that.

Goddammit, fuck 'em all. Just kill 'em. A life for a life.

4/3/2007 1:24:05 PM

Quote :

"Hispanic leaders are struggling to stem a problem that they say is rooted in the waves of young men who leave the calming influences of church and family to labor alone in a new country"

I don't get it. Are these illegals? Are they just the men given green cards to come here and work, leaving their families behind?

4/3/2007 1:24:15 PM

I got on Google looking for statistics on DUI fatalities and couldn't find much.

But I did stumble across this gem on discussion board for Hickory, NC:

http://www.topix.net/forum/city/hickory-nc/TABBI0LL2Q8T689RP

Quote :

"It's all about money folks ! The democrats in Raleigh in their infinite wisdom decided to reduce the standards for acquiring a N.C. drivers license in order to attract the illegal's business. Bus loads of illegal came in from all over to receive the easy licenses. Just pay the money and you get a license whether you can read english or pass a drivers test. With the democrats in power, this state is for sale."

4/3/2007 1:34:42 PM

i wasn't aware that you could get a license without passing a driving test.

4/3/2007 4:08:39 PM

i wasnt aware that identity theft was possible

4/3/2007 4:11:31 PM

cultural relativism ftw

4/3/2007 4:13:35 PM

^^ it's usually not identity theft, but identity faking or identity sharing.

4/3/2007 4:20:30 PM

Quote :

""The first step to fixing a problem is understanding it." they drive drunk and kill people...understand? OH NO! THEY ARE LONELY! HAVE SYMPATHY FOR THEM! THEY ARE THE REAL VICTIMS HERE"

What he posted, and what your response is have nothing to do with each other.

4/3/2007 4:22:08 PM

they have everything to do with each other

4/3/2007 4:25:14 PM

No they don't.

4/3/2007 4:27:36 PM

yes they do...unless you want to explain why they dont instead of playing 2nd grade games

4/3/2007 4:30:17 PM

Quote :

"Illegals are killing more Americans on the highways than Muslim terrorists are in the middle East."

And so are a fully legal American citizens. What's your point? That car accidents kill more people than terrorism? You're probably right, if only because the USA is a lot bigger than Iraq. Cars kill roughly 42,000 Americans per year.

4/3/2007 4:44:17 PM

Its seems to me hitting an illegal should be like hitting a deer. You feel bad about it, but it really shouldnt have been in the road/country. Now as for a drunk illegal, I dunno how to fix this. Maybe the ole eye for an eye approach? It wont take long to stop it that way. The problem isnt with NC giving away drivers license. If they didnt, do you really think it would stop them from driving? You have to actually enforce laws for people to respect them.

4/3/2007 5:13:51 PM

Quote :

"What's your point? "

How about when they catch these drunk-driving illegals (as they often have) instead of letting them go..actually kick their butts back to Mexico.

4/3/2007 6:04:08 PM

I liked this part particularly:

Quote :

"the waves of young men who leave the calming influences of church and family"

http://www.google.com/search?q=drug%20violence%20latin%20america

[Edited on April 3, 2007 at 6:41 PM. Reason : s]

4/3/2007 6:40:31 PM

I could have sworn libertarians were against trade barriers. I must be dreaming

4/3/2007 7:14:45 PM

EarthDogg isn't a very good libertarian.

4/3/2007 7:28:06 PM

Quote :

"EarthDogg isn't a very good libertarian."

hmmm... am I? Let's see:


From the National Libertarian Party website, issues plank:

Quote :

"The Issue: Our borders are currently neither open, closed, nor secure. This situation restricts the labor pool, encouraging employers to hire undocumented workers, while leaving those workers neither subject to nor protected by the law. A completely open border allows foreign criminals, carriers of communicable diseases, terrorists and other potential threats to enter the country unchecked. Pandering politicians guarantee access to public services for undocumented aliens, to the detriment of those who would enter to work productively, and increasing the burden on taxpayers. "

What does the libertarian think-tank Cato Institute say?

Quote :

"Thankfully, a proposed compromise gaining attention in Washington offers hope for securing our borders, reducing illegal immigration, and meeting the needs of our growing economy. The plan put forward by Rep. Mike Pence of Indiana and Sen. Kay Bailey Hutchison of Texas, both Republicans, on July 25th, would allow Mexicans and Central Americans to enter the United States through a temporary worker program. Workers here illegally now would need to leave the country and apply for re-entry. The program would be administered by private companies operating "Ellis Island Centers" outside the country. - Dan Griswold, director of the Center for Trade Policy Studies at the Cato Institute "

How about libertarian-leaning presidential candidate Ron Paul?

Quote :

"The talk must stop. We must secure our borders now. A nation without secure borders is no nation at all. It makes no sense to fight terrorists abroad when our own front door is left unlocked. This is my six point plan: 1) Physically secure our borders and coastlines. We must do whatever it takes to control entry into our country before we undertake complicated immigration reform proposals. 2) Enforce visa rules. Immigration officials must track visa holders and deport anyone who overstays their visa or otherwise violates U.S. law. This is especially important when we recall that a number of 9/11 terrorists had expired visas. 3) No amnesty. Estimates suggest that 10 to 20 million people are in our country illegally. That’s a lot of people to reward for breaking our laws. 4) No welfare for illegal aliens. Americans have welcomed immigrants who seek opportunity, work hard, and play by the rules. But taxpayers should not pay for illegal immigrants who use hospitals, clinics, schools, roads, and social services. 5) End birthright citizenship. As long as illegal immigrants know their children born here will be citizens, the incentive to enter the U.S. illegally will remain strong. 6) Pass true immigration reform. The current system is incoherent and unfair. But current reform proposals would allow up to 60 million more immigrants into our country, according to the Heritage Foundation. This is insanity. Legal immigrants from all countries should face the same rules and waiting periods."

Looks like I get to stay a liberatarian... unsecure borders is not the same as free trade.

4/3/2007 10:09:45 PM

ah yes. the libertarian world view. wehre government taxes should go towards police and the military and nothing else. GREAT IDEA!!!

4/3/2007 10:14:56 PM

^
Now come on...you know that's not true.

It's true that libertarians want more limited gov't, but that doesn't mean just police and military.

Charles Murray sums it up nicely:

Quote :

"What should the government be permitted to demand of the ordinary person? Very little. A person who is making an honest living and minding his own business isn't hurting me. He isn't forcing me to do anything. I as an individual don't have the right to force him to do anything. A hundred of his neighbors acting as a mob don't have that right. The government shouldn't have that right either, except for stringently limited functions, imposed under strigently limited conditions. An adult making an honest living and minding his own business deserves to be left alone to live his life. He deserves to be free""

What in that would you disagree with?

4/3/2007 10:44:39 PM

Quote :

"From the National Libertarian Party website, issues plank:"

Read the rest of that section. And there's this:

Quote :

"We condemn the xenophobic immigrant bashing that would build a wall around the United States."

http://www.lp.org/issues/immigration.shtml

Quote :

"How about libertarian-leaning presidential candidate Ron Paul?"

He's an idiot, apparently, and not at all consistent with libertarian principles.

4/3/2007 10:46:37 PM

Quote :

"Illegals are killing more Americans on the highways than Muslim terrorists are in the middle East."

lets look at the numbers.
Iraq: 11,760
That is total number of people killed in Iraq by terrorists since the US invaded according to
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/ter_ter_act_196_fat-terrorist-acts-1968-2006-fatalities
Which works out to somewhere an average of 2940 deaths per year in Iraq alone. Doesnt count deaths in places like Afghanistan (not really middle east) Israel, Egypt, etc.

Quote :

"During 2005, 16,885 people in the U.S. died in alcohol-related motor vehicle crashes, representing 39% of all traffic-related deaths (NHTSA 2006)."

http://www.luhs.org/depts/injprev/Transprt/tran1-06.htm#Alcohol%20and%20Non-Alcohol%20Fatalities%20by%20Ethnic%20Group
According to that site, around 13% or so of fatal crashes involving alcohol in 1998 involved an hispanic driver.

Lets say that in 2005, 20% of all fatal crashes involving alcohol involved an hispanic driver. If the number was that high, then for your claim to be correct, then at least 85% of all hispanics would have to be illegal aliens.

[Edited on April 3, 2007 at 10:56 PM. Reason : dont get your info about immigrants from world net daily]

edit2- According to stats from the Pew Center there are probably between 12 and 14 million TOTAL illegal immigrants in the country right now. The 2000 census said there were over 40 million hispanics in the country.

[Edited on April 3, 2007 at 11:04 PM. Reason : e]

4/3/2007 10:55:30 PM

Quote :

"Iraq: 11,760 That is total number of people killed in Iraq by terrorists since the US invaded according to"

And that's probably a low number. The Lancet study found around 600,000 Iraqis killed by violence in the first three years of the war. Car bombs alone account for 13% of these deaths. That'd be around 26,000 per year.

4/3/2007 11:10:21 PM

Quote :

"We condemn the xenophobic immigrant bashing that would build a wall around the United States." "

Can't you be in favor of both legal immigration and secure borders at the same time?

Calling Ron Paul an idiot is very telling. I just quoted some core libertarian principles..which I am confident Mr. Paul would support.

4/3/2007 11:54:49 PM

^^yeah. I was just trying to go with the lowest amount i could find for iraqi deaths. obviously a lot are dying due to things like just plain old murder, and that would skew the stats.

4/3/2007 11:57:43 PM

the statement seems to imply that they are killing more americans

also, you then compare a statistic for multiple years to deaths in a single year

4/4/2007 10:21:31 AM

^yeah but not enough americans have been killed in iraq for them to be able to make their point...600,000 sounds like a much more persuasive number, even though thats not americans

4/4/2007 10:38:04 AM

Quote :

"also, you then compare a statistic for multiple years to deaths in a single year"

oh really? i do?


and you dont want to go down the "they have killed more americans" road. Why? Because then someone will say Bush has killed more troops than Bin Laden and things just wont end well.

4/4/2007 12:29:19 PM

well wherever that road goes, drunk mexicans do kill more americans than terrorists do

4/4/2007 12:55:24 PM

Quote :

"U.S. Rep. Sue Myrick, a Charlotte Republican, reintroduced a bill that would require the deportation of all immigrants convicted of drunken driving."

I support this bill. If you've ever had to sit through court days in the Wendell County courthouse the place is basically filled to capacity with latinos charged with DUI and driving without a license.

Quote :

"The first step to fixing a problem is understanding it."

I don't want to fix their problems. I'd rather put them in jail for a while and toss them back across the border. Let their family and their government worry about their problems.

[Edited on April 4, 2007 at 1:17 PM. Reason : s]

4/4/2007 1:14:07 PM

It was implied throughout, but I didn't see anywhere in that article that it said illegals have a higher DWI rate than anyone else. I don't doubt that they do, but it seems like an odd omission.

4/4/2007 1:25:26 PM

Quote :

"Can't you be in favor of both legal immigration and secure borders at the same time?"

Our current system of legal immigration denies entry to far too many people. You know this. Your party's website says it.

And posting threads such as this one can really only be considered "xenophobic immigrant bashing."

Quote :

"well wherever that road goes, drunk mexicans do kill more americans than terrorists do"

And so do drunk Americans. Look at this:

Quote :

"Self-reported rates of DUI were highest among White men (22%), Native American/Native Alaskan men (20.8%) and men of Mixed race (22.5%)."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15667807

Holy shit! White men kill more Americans than terrorists do! Send those fuckers back to Europe!

4/4/2007 2:32:24 PM

Quote :

"I saw that and wondered if next week would be Sexual harassment is rooted in immigrants' culture"

Well, it is. And they don't consider it sexual harassment.

4/4/2007 2:36:33 PM

Quote :

"And so do drunk Americans. Look at this: Quote : "Self-reported rates of DUI were highest among White men (22%), Native American/Native Alaskan men (20.8%) and men of Mixed race (22.5%)." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15667807 Holy shit! White men kill more Americans than terrorists do! Send those fuckers back to Europe!"

That's a nice set of numbers, there. Certainly adds validity to your point. However, that just describes "self-reported rates of DUI." This, I took to mean as the percent of all those people who have EVER driven drunk. Does it mention anything about habitual drunk drivers? Obviously, even according to the hippies who wrote this article, drunk driving is a habitual problem with illegals. While it's not okay to drive drunk once, I can guarantee you 10 people who drive drunk every day are going to be more likely to kill than 100 people who have driven drunk once in their lives.

[Edited on April 4, 2007 at 3:27 PM. Reason : gees, you'd think I've never typed before]

4/4/2007 3:26:04 PM

^ You're just trying to gin up sympathy for drunk drivers.

[Edited on April 4, 2007 at 4:59 PM. Reason : ]

4/4/2007 4:58:47 PM

* gin *

4/4/2007 6:41:28 PM

Quote :

"'Christmas Story' Director Dies in Crash Film director Bob Clark, best known for the holiday classic "A Christmas Story," was killed with his son Wednesday in a head-on crash with a vehicle that a drunken driver steered into the wrong lane, police and the filmmaker's assistant said. The driver, Hector Velazquez-Nava, 24, of Los Angeles, remained hospitalized and will be booked for investigation of gross vehicular manslaughter after being treated. "

Don't know for sure yet if Hector is one of those lonely, homesick illegals.

4/4/2007 10:40:23 PM

Quote :

"i saw that headline when i read the paper on sunday and i thought "looks like they're begging for editorial response...here comes the outraged letters""

that is exactly what i thought.

4/4/2007 11:03:08 PM

look earthdogg, anecdotes dont prove shit.

there are tens of thousands of people dying from drunk driving every year. your ability to find little stories that say "guy who everyone likes is killed by drunk mexican" doesnt prove its a widespread problem. it proves that that story occured and nothing more.

4/4/2007 11:07:50 PM

Calling Mr. Clark's death an anecdote is pretty callous. And It's already established that drunk-driving illegals is a wide-spread problem..it doesn't require any more 'proving'.

Why post this story?

I really liked "A Christmas Story"... and I really dislike our govt's refusal to deal aggressively with illegal aliens..especially the drunk-driving ones.

[Edited on April 4, 2007 at 11:41 PM. Reason : ...although we don't know yet if Hector is here illegally. (to be fair)]

4/4/2007 11:40:15 PM

DEY TUK UR JOBS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

4/4/2007 11:59:15 PM