It would be wrong to blame or judge the victim's action. The shock and suddeness of the situation must've been very disorienting.

If faced with the opportunity to run away, you can hardly blame anyone for taking that option. But what is curious to me is what happened when they were faced with the situation of being cornered, knowing their turn was coming and then doing nothing to attack the killer.

We have a flight or fight mechanism built into our human systems. When unable to use flight, we are left with fight. But where did the fight go? Is this a result of society, culture, of a incorrect theory of flight or fight? Had years of TV drama violence conditioned these students that guns never need reloading, never miss and are always deadly on the first shot? Why were they unable to gear up the anger needed to attack the killer?

Mark Steyn with his comments on this subject...

Quote :

"A Culture of Passivity, "Protecting" our "children" at Virginia Tech. By Mark Steyn 4-18-07 I haven’t weighed in yet on Virginia Tech — mainly because, in a saner world, it would not be the kind of incident one needed to have a partisan opinion on. But I was giving a couple of speeches in Minnesota yesterday and I was asked about it and found myself more and more disturbed by the tone of the coverage. I’m not sure I’m ready to go the full Derb but I think he’s closer to the reality of the situation than most. On Monday night, Geraldo was all over Fox News saying we have to accept that, in this horrible world we live in, our “children” need to be “protected.” Point one: They’re not “children.” The students at Virginia Tech were grown women and — if you’ll forgive the expression — men. They would be regarded as adults by any other society in the history of our planet. Granted, we live in a selectively infantilized culture where twentysomethings are “children” if they’re serving in the Third Infantry Division in Ramadi but grown-ups making rational choices if they drop to the broadloom in President Clinton’s Oval Office. Nonetheless, it’s deeply damaging to portray fit fully formed adults as children who need to be protected. We should be raising them to understand that there will be moments in life when you need to protect yourself — and, in a “horrible” world, there may come moments when you have to choose between protecting yourself or others. It is a poor reflection on us that, in those first critical seconds where one has to make a decision, only an elderly Holocaust survivor, Professor Librescu, understood instinctively the obligation to act. Point two: The cost of a “protected” society of eternal “children” is too high. Every December 6th, my own unmanned Dominion lowers its flags to half-mast and tries to saddle Canadian manhood in general with the blame for the “Montreal massacre,” the 14 female students of the Ecole Polytechnique murdered by Marc Lepine (born Gamil Gharbi, the son of an Algerian Muslim wife-beater, though you’d never know that from the press coverage). As I wrote up north a few years ago: Yet the defining image of contemporary Canadian maleness is not M Lepine/Gharbi but the professors and the men in that classroom, who, ordered to leave by the lone gunman, meekly did so, and abandoned their female classmates to their fate — an act of abdication that would have been unthinkable in almost any other culture throughout human history. The “men” stood outside in the corridor and, even as they heard the first shots, they did nothing. And, when it was over and Gharbi walked out of the room and past them, they still did nothing. Whatever its other defects, Canadian manhood does not suffer from an excess of testosterone. I have always believed America is different. Certainly on September 11th we understood. The only good news of the day came from the passengers who didn’t meekly follow the obsolescent 1970s hijack procedures but who used their wits and acted as free-born individuals. And a few months later as Richard Reid bent down and tried to light his shoe in that critical split-second even the French guys leapt up and pounded the bejasus out of him. We do our children a disservice to raise them to entrust all to officialdom’s security blanket. Geraldo-like “protection” is a delusion: when something goes awry — whether on a September morning flight out of Logan or on a peaceful college campus — the state won’t be there to protect you. You’ll be the fellow on the scene who has to make the decision. As my distinguished compatriot Kathy Shaidle says: When we say “we don’t know what we’d do under the same circumstances”, we make cowardice the default position. I’d prefer to say that the default position is a terrible enervating passivity. Murderous misfit loners are mercifully rare. But this awful corrosive passivity is far more pervasive, and, unlike the psycho killer, is an existential threat to a functioning society. "

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=YzEzYzQ0Y2MyZjNlNjY1ZTEzMTA0MGRmM2EyMTQ0NjY

4/19/2007 11:08:25 AM

reminds me of Dave Grossman, author of the book On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning To Kill In War and Society...

this is something he wrote that I don't agree with in every single detail, but have always liked and felt a huge connection to. It's like someone read my mind and put into words everyone can understand.

Quote :

"On Sheep, Sheepdogs, and Wolves By Dave Grossman One Vietnam veteran, an old retired colonel, once said this to me: "Most of the people in our society are sheep. They are kind, gentle, productive creatures who can only hurt one another by accident." This is true. Remember, the murder rate is six per 100,000 per year, and the aggravated assault rate is four per 1,000 per year. What this means is that the vast majority of Americans are not inclined to hurt one another. Some estimates say that two million Americans are victims of violent crimes every year, a tragic, staggering number, perhaps an all-time record rate of violent crime. But there are almost 300 million Americans, which means that the odds of being a victim of violent crime is considerably less than one in a hundred on any given year. Furthermore, since many violent crimes are committed by repeat offenders, the actual number of violent citizens is considerably less than two million. Thus there is a paradox, and we must grasp both ends of the situation: We may well be in the most violent times in history, but violence is still remarkably rare. This is because most citizens are kind, decent people who are not capable of hurting each other, except by accident or under extreme provocation. They are sheep. I mean nothing negative by calling them sheep. To me it is like the pretty, blue robin's egg. Inside it is soft and gooey but someday it will grow into something wonderful. But the egg cannot survive without its hard blue shell. Police officers, soldiers, and other warriors are like that shell, and someday the civilization they protect will grow into something wonderful. For now, though, they need warriors to protect them from the predators. "Then there are the wolves," the old war veteran said, "and the wolves feed on the sheep without mercy." Do you believe there are wolves out there that will feed on the flock without mercy? You better believe it. There are evil men in this world and they are capable of evil deeds. The moment you forget that or pretend it is not so, you become a sheep. There is no safety in denial. "Then there are sheepdogs," he went on, "and I'm a sheepdog. I live to protect the flock and confront the wolf."... If you have no capacity for violence then you are a healthy productive citizen, a sheep. If you have a capacity for violence and no empathy for your fellow citizens, then you have defined an aggressive sociopath, a wolf. But what if you have a capacity for violence, and a deep love for your fellow citizens? What do you have then? A sheepdog, a warrior, someone who is walking the hero's path. Someone who can walk into the heart of darkness, into the universal human phobia, and walk out unscathed. Let me expand on this old soldier's excellent model of the sheep, wolves, and sheepdogs. We know that the sheep live in denial, which is what makes them sheep. They do not want to believe that there is evil in the world. They can accept the fact that fires can happen, which is why they want fire extinguishers, fire sprinklers, fire alarms and fire exits throughout their kids' schools. But many of them are outraged at the idea of putting an armed police officer in their kid's school. Our children are thousands of times more likely to be killed or seriously injured by school violence than fire, but the sheep's only response to the possibility of violence is denial. The idea of someone coming to kill or harm their child is just too hard, and so they chose the path of denial."

[Edited on April 19, 2007 at 11:31 AM. Reason : asdf]

[Edited on April 19, 2007 at 11:34 AM. Reason : sdfa]

4/19/2007 11:31:29 AM

Quote :

"The sheep generally do not like the sheepdog. He looks a lot like the wolf. He has fangs and the capacity for violence. The difference, though, is that the sheepdog must not, cannot and will not ever harm the sheep. Any sheepdog who intentionally harms the lowliest little lamb will be punished and removed. The world cannot work any other way, at least not in a representative democracy or a republic such as ours. Still, the sheepdog disturbs the sheep. He is a constant reminder that there are wolves in the land. They would prefer that he didn't tell them where to go, or give them traffic tickets, or stand at the ready in our airports in camouflage fatigues holding an M-16. The sheep would much rather have the sheepdog cash in his fangs, spray paint himself white, and go, "Baa." Until the wolf shows up! Then the entire flock tries desperately to hide behind one lonely sheepdog. The students, the victims, at Columbine High School were big, tough high school students, and under ordinary circumstances they would not have had the time of day for a police officer. They were not bad kids; they just had nothing to say to a cop. When the school was under attack, however, and SWAT teams were clearing the rooms and hallways, the officers had to physically peel those clinging, sobbing kids off of them. This is how the little lambs feel about their sheepdog when the wolf is at the door. Look at what happened after September 11, 2001 when the wolf pounded hard on the door. Remember how America, more than ever before, felt differently about their law enforcement officers and military personnel? Remember how many times you heard the word hero? Understand that there is nothing morally superior about being a sheepdog; it is just what you choose to be. Also understand that a sheepdog is a funny critter: He is always sniffing around out on the perimeter, checking the breeze, barking at things that go bump in the night, and yearning for a righteous battle. That is, the young sheepdogs yearn for a righteous battle. The old sheepdogs are a little older and wiser, but they move to the sound of the guns when needed right along with the young ones. Here is how the sheep and the sheepdog think differently. The sheep pretend the wolf will never come, but the sheepdog lives for that day. After the attacks on September 11, 2001, most of the sheep, that is, most citizens in America said, "Thank God I wasn't on one of those planes." The sheepdogs, the warriors, said, "Dear God, I wish I could have been on one of those planes. Maybe I could have made a difference." When you are truly transformed into a warrior and have truly invested yourself into warriorhood, you want to be there. You want to be able to make a difference. There is nothing morally superior about the sheepdog, the warrior, but he does have one real advantage. Only one. And that is that he is able to survive and thrive in an environment that destroys 98 percent of the population. There was research conducted a few years ago with individuals convicted of violent crimes. These cons were in prison for serious, predatory crimes of violence: assaults, murders and killing law enforcement officers. The vast majority said that they specifically targeted victims by body language: slumped walk, passive behavior and lack of awareness. They chose their victims like big cats do in Africa, when they select one out of the herd that is least able to protect itself. [note from theDuke866--seen this many times in situations of lesser severity. Heavy hitters aren't the ones who often overreact, provoke people, and constantly find themselves in altercations] Some people may be destined to be sheep and others might be genetically primed to be wolves or sheepdogs. But I believe that most people can choose which one they want to be, and I'm proud to say that more and more Americans are choosing to become sheepdogs. Seven months after the attack on September 11, 2001, Todd Beamer was honored in his hometown of Cranbury, New Jersey. Todd, as you recall, was the man on Flight 93 over Pennsylvania who called on his cell phone to alert an operator from United Airlines about the hijacking. When he learned of the other three passenger planes that had been used as weapons, Todd dropped his phone and uttered the words, "Let's roll," which authorities believe was a signal to the other passengers to confront the terrorist hijackers. In one hour, a transformation occurred among the passengers - athletes, business people and parents. -- From sheep to sheepdogs and together they fought the wolves, ultimately saving an unknown number of lives on the ground. "Do you have any idea how hard it would be to live with yourself after that?" "There is no safety for honest men except by believing all possible evil of evil men." - Edmund Burke Here is the point I like to emphasize; especially to the thousands of police officers and soldiers I speak to each year. In nature the sheep, real sheep, are born as sheep. Sheepdogs are born that way, and so are wolves. They didn't have a choice. But you are not a critter. As a human being, you can be whatever you want to be. It is a conscious, moral decision. "

[Edited on April 19, 2007 at 11:39 AM. Reason : asdfasdf]

4/19/2007 11:32:20 AM

Quote :

"If you want to be a sheep, then you can be a sheep and that is okay, but you must understand the price you pay. When the wolf comes, you and your loved ones are going to die if there is not a sheepdog there to protect you. If you want to be a wolf, you can be one, but the sheepdogs are going to hunt you down and you will never have rest, safety, trust, or love. But if you want to be a sheepdog and walk the warrior's path, then you must make a conscious and moral decision every day to dedicate, equip and prepare yourself to thrive in that toxic, corrosive moment when the wolf comes knocking at the door. For example, many officers carry their weapons in church. They are well concealed in ankle holsters, shoulder holsters or inside-the-belt holsters tucked into the small of their backs. Anytime you go to some form of religious service, there is a very good chance that a police officer in your congregation is carrying. You will never know if there is such an individual in your place of worship, until the wolf appears to massacre you and your loved ones. I was training a group of police officers in Texas, and during the break, one officer asked his friend if he carried his weapon in church. The other cop replied, "I will never be caught without my gun in church." I asked why he felt so strongly about this, and he told me about a cop he knew who was at a church massacre in Ft. Worth, Texas in 1999. In that incident, a mentally deranged individual came into the church and opened fire, gunning down fourteen people. He said that officer believed he could have saved every life that day if he had been carrying his gun. His own son was shot, and all he could do was throw himself on the boy's body and wait to die. That cop looked me in the eye and said, "Do you have any idea how hard it would be to live with yourself after that?" Some individuals would be horrified if they knew this police officer was carrying a weapon in church. They might call him paranoid and would probably scorn him. Yet these same individuals would be enraged and would call for "heads to roll" if they found out that the airbags in their cars were defective, or that the fire extinguisher and fire sprinklers in their kids' school did not work. They can accept the fact that fires and traffic accidents can happen and that there must be safeguards against them. Their only response to the wolf, though, is denial, and all too often their response to the sheepdog is scorn and disdain. But the sheepdog quietly asks himself, "Do you have any idea how hard it would be to live with yourself if your loved ones were attacked and killed, and you had to stand there helplessly because you were unprepared for that day?" It is denial that turns people into sheep. Sheep are psychologically destroyed by combat because their only defense is denial, which is counterproductive and destructive, resulting in fear, helplessness and horror when the wolf shows up. Denial kills you twice. It kills you once, at your moment of truth when you are not physically prepared: you didn't bring your gun, you didn't train. Your only defense was wishful thinking. Hope is not a strategy. Denial kills you a second time because even if you do physically survive, you are psychologically shattered by your fear, helplessness, and horror at your moment of truth. Gavin de Becker puts it like this in "Fear Less," his superb post-9/11 book, which should be required reading for anyone trying to come to terms with our current world situation: "...denial can be seductive, but it has an insidious side effect. For all the peace of mind deniers think they get by saying it isn't so, the fall they take when faced with new violence is all the more unsettling." Denial is a save-now-pay-later scheme, a contract written entirely in small print, for in the long run, the denying person knows the truth on some level. And so the warrior must strive to confront denial in all aspects of his life, and prepare himself for the day when evil comes. If you are warrior who is legally authorized to carry a weapon and you step outside without that weapon, then you become a sheep, pretending that the bad man will not come today. No one can be "on" 24/7, for a lifetime. Everyone needs down time. But if you are authorized to carry a weapon, and you walk outside without it, just take a deep breath, and say this to yourself... "Baa." This business of being a sheep or a sheep dog is not a yes-no dichotomy. It is not an all-or-nothing, either-or choice. It is a matter of degrees, a continuum. On one end is an abject, head-in-the-sand-sheep and on the other end is the ultimate warrior. Few people exist completely on one end or the other. Most of us live somewhere in between. Since 9-11 almost everyone in America took a step up that continuum, away from denial. The sheep took a few steps toward accepting and appreciating their warriors, and the warriors started taking their job more seriously. The degree to which you move up that continuum, away from sheephood and denial, is the degree to which you and your loved ones will survive, physically and psychologically, at your moment of truth."

[/quote]

[Edited on April 19, 2007 at 11:40 AM. Reason : asdf]

4/19/2007 11:32:31 AM

the "lets roll" guys had ample time to sit and contemplate what to do....not the same as suddenly having live rounds fired in your vicinity.

and besides, there were multiple "hero" stories that have came out.

^everyone is capable of violence....the difference is the trigger needed to pull it out, but for the most part, people are sheep.

[Edited on April 19, 2007 at 11:35 AM. Reason : .]

4/19/2007 11:33:16 AM

interesting take, parallels something i heard about freeing up gun laws more.... personally, if i had a piece and that shit was happening near me i'd attempt to hunt the bastard down and preferably shoot his arms or knee's.... if not just chest (again entirely situational with regards to aiming/ability)

4/19/2007 11:33:22 AM

Quote :

"if i had a piece and that shit was happening near me"

that's a mighty big if.....what would you do if you were caught totally by surprise and had no weapons?

Willie Nelson said it best....

4/19/2007 11:36:41 AM

I am reading that book now

4/19/2007 11:40:18 AM

Very interesting stuff, Duke.

Quote :

"there were multiple "hero" stories that have came out."

There could be. I only heard about the holocaust survivor who stood in the doorway. What other examples of the victims, especially among the students, physically confronting the killer?

Granted, I wasn't there. The Killer might've been so prepared and quick that the opportunity to attack him never arose. But with the amount of time it took, and the desperate circumstances...there was time enough for a "Let's Roll" moment.

4/19/2007 11:43:58 AM

Quote :

"the "lets roll" guys had ample time to sit and contemplate what to do....not the same as suddenly having live rounds fired in your vicinity. and besides, there were multiple "hero" stories that have came out. ^everyone is capable of violence....the difference is the trigger needed to pull it out, but for the most part, people are sheep."

well yeah, that's what he's saying. there is a variance in both the threshold of that trigger and what, well, triggers it.

Quote :

"personally, if i had a piece and that shit was happening near me i'd attempt to hunt the bastard down and preferably shoot his arms or knee's.... if not just chest (again entirely situational with regards to aiming/ability)"

shooting someone in the arms or knees is a stupid, stupid idea 99% of the time. shoot him in the chest. preferably at least twice. if that fierce level of violence is not called for, you probably shouldn't be solving the problem by shooting at all.

Quote :

"I am reading that book now"

excellent, interesting read. for those not familiar, the author is a retired U.S. Army Ranger and currently a psychology professor at some university in the midwest. it's a psychological study that gets into the history of the human response to death and killing throughout history up through modern times. it's fairly heavy on the military combat aspect of things, and then it ties that to our violence problem in modern society, focusing on the things that have enabled soldiers to be psychologically more and more able to kill in combat...and similar factors that psychologically enable criminals to kill in society.

4/19/2007 11:47:51 AM

Might have something to do with the incentive structure. With the 9/11 situation it was clear the hijackers were taking down the whole plane and everyone would die. Therefore you have nothing to lose by attacking/attempting to foil them as your personal best case scenario is only achieved by intervening.

In a group shooting there is only a chance that you may be shot, so long as it might be the person next to you and not you you're less likely to intervene. Even if intervening means 2 people die instead of 20 which most people objectively consider better, few people would be willing, at that moment, to be one of the 2.

Quote :

"interesting take, parallels something i heard about freeing up gun laws more.... personally, if i had a piece and that shit was happening near me i'd attempt to hunt the bastard down and preferably shoot his arms or knee's.... if not just chest (again entirely situational with regards to aiming/ability)"

Suppose someone with a gun hears gunshots, proceeds to the scene and sees you, having just shot the shooter, standing with a gun in your hand in a lab full of people who have just been shot. What do you think might happen next?

[Edited on April 19, 2007 at 11:54 AM. Reason : ...]

4/19/2007 11:51:44 AM

Quote :

".there was time enough for a "Let's Roll" moment."

Not really.

Fortunately, one kid had the gumption to get a buddy and they shoved a table in front of the door and held it shut with their foot, away from the door. This was AFTER he had been in there one time. That was the other "hero" story. I think it has just been those two, but I haven't followed all this to a tee.

The guys on the airplane had many many many minutes to contemplate their life, and to get worked up enough to take their fate back into their hands.

The folks at VT had seconds, if that. I mean, what kind of "Let's Roll" do you envision here? He comes in blasting, leaves the room, and kids run out after him into an open hallway, with no cover, and with no weapons trying to take him down? And from what I have read, it seems to me it would be pretty fucking hard to go from a cover position behind desks, whatever, to up and chasing after him when you "think" he might be reloading.

And about this

Quote :

"They’re not “children.” The students at Virginia Tech were grown women and — if you’ll forgive the expression — men."

I'm 27 years old, only been in a couple of minor scuffles in my day (I'm generally a pacifist), and I know my mind would go blank if confronted with someone busting into the room blasting.


This "where were the heros" crap is the some of the worst bullshit to come out of this story.

4/19/2007 11:54:08 AM

^^
Yes..you have a point there. But from what I've heard...there were situations were people were lined up and he went down the line one by one. That may not be true, but if it was..why would you stand there waiting for your turn? That situation is similar to waiting for the plane to crash.

What caused the victims to wait to be shot? Again, things might've been happening so fast that you didn't have the time to weigh your options. And fear is a big obstacle to action.

[Edited on April 19, 2007 at 11:56 AM. Reason : .]

4/19/2007 11:56:34 AM

yeah, given the nature of the situation, i think that "proportionately" (for lack of a better term), we saw some heroic response, or at least no notable lack of it.

Quote :

"But from what I've heard...there were situations were people were lined up and he went down the line one by one. That may not be true, but if it was..why would you stand there waiting for your turn?"

Yeah, if that's the case, there's no excuse for that.

[Edited on April 19, 2007 at 11:57 AM. Reason : sdfafsdfsd]

4/19/2007 11:56:46 AM

I like how he redefined the whole "fight or flight" concept.

Flight, Fight, Posture, Submission....how many times have we seen posturing on tv and overreacted...

[Edited on April 19, 2007 at 11:57 AM. Reason : .]

4/19/2007 11:56:51 AM

Quote :

"there were situations were people were lined up and he went down the line one by one."

It seems these were early reports, and they weren't lined up and shot execution style. I think he was just going one after the other shooting and

Quote :

"why would you stand there waiting for your turn?"

People didn't, they jumped out of windows.

4/19/2007 12:00:55 PM

Quote :

"I know my mind would go blank if confronted with someone busting into the room blasting. "

exactly....I don't care if you're a decorated war hero, if somebody busts in the room where you are and starts squeezing off rounds, there is going to be confusion (especially if it's somewhere you never expected it to happen).

when the guy left the room the students had a chance to barricade the door with a table...it's asinine to criticize them for how they reacted.

4/19/2007 12:06:56 PM

i didnt read this thread because EarthDogg is a fucking idiot.

There have already been at least 3-4 stories of people saving others through personal heroism.

4/19/2007 12:15:46 PM

i think the general sentiment is correct...just that this incident isn't really a "great" (for lack of a better word) illustration of it.

4/19/2007 12:30:07 PM

from what ive heard on the news, there were "lets roll" moments they just werent as exciting as attacking hijackers and downing a plane. there were also lots of stories of personal survival.

4/19/2007 12:57:31 PM

http://hobbes.ncsa.uiuc.edu/onsheepwolvesandsheepdogs.html

read the essay "On Sheep, wolves and Sheepdogs" by Dave Grossman. We had to read it in the police academy. it essentially says that some people are sheep and do not want to protect themselves, other people are wolves and they prey on the sheep. a certain few people are sheepdogs, who are strong but not aggressive. these people protect the sheep.

i just realized Duke posted the same essay already. my bad, its a good read though

[Edited on April 19, 2007 at 1:15 PM. Reason : .]

4/19/2007 1:13:59 PM

Quote :

"I mean, what kind of "Let's Roll" do you envision here? He comes in blasting, leaves the room, and kids run out after him into an open hallway, with no cover, and with no weapons trying to take him down?"

These kids did:

http://www.opinionjournal.com/best/?id=95001749

Again though, no one here is really criticising people for the actions they chose. They're criticising the mindset that society enforces on it's people from day 1 that submission and running away is preferable to fighting or defending yourself. People will default to their level of training, and sadly in the modern age, too few people are trained to defend themselves or others, they're trained to run away.

4/19/2007 2:25:35 PM

Read my quote again, then think about that link you posted and how your "these kids did" doesn't apply.

4/19/2007 2:38:35 PM

One kid had a gun, the rest of them didn't, and they still went after him. But like I said, the problem is, we teach people to run away instead of standing their ground and fighting back.

4/19/2007 2:59:34 PM

Yea, I might be inclined to follow the guy with the gun too. Jeez.

4/19/2007 3:40:26 PM

Ok, if you want an example of unarmed resistance to gun-wielding lunatic, how's this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kip_Kinkle

Quote :

"On May 21, [1998] Kinkel drove his mother's Ford Explorer to his former high school. He wore a trenchcoat to hide the four weapons he carried, including: * Hunting Knife (purchased for him by his father) * 9mm Glock 19 pistol * Ruger .22 Semi-Automatic Rifle * Ruger .22 pistol He left his mother's car outside the school and carried a backpack filled with ammunition. He entered the hallway and fired two shots, one fatally wounding Ben Walker and the other wounding Ryan Atteberry. Kinkel then entered the cafeteria and, walking across the cafeteria, fired the remaining 48 rounds from the 50-round magazine in his rifle, wounding 24 students and killing one by the name of Mikeal Nicholauson. When his rifle ran out of ammunition and Kinkel began to reload, wounded student Jake Ryker tackled Kinkel, who attempted to kill Ryker with the Glock. He only managed to fire one shot before Ryker knocked the gun out of his hand. More students, including Jake's brother Josh, helped restrain Kinkel until the police arrived and arrested him."

4/19/2007 4:31:29 PM

The situations are entirely different, and judging by the precision of this guy killing, versus the anecdote you just posted, it's no surprise to me that in one case, tackling the guy worked, and in the other it just wouldn't.

Open cafeteria vs standing in a doorway
48 rounds killing 1 vs ...what, 150 rounds killing 30
15 yr old kid vs 23 yr old guy

4/19/2007 4:41:56 PM

in fairness though, Cho mostly used 9mm hollowpoints...dude in the cafeteria was just busting some 22 LR (probably from a Ruger 10/22)

4/19/2007 4:45:51 PM

Quote :

"The folks at VT had seconds, if that. I mean, what kind of "Let's Roll" do you envision here? He comes in blasting, leaves the room, and kids run out after him into an open hallway, with no cover, and with no weapons trying to take him down? And from what I have read, it seems to me it would be pretty fucking hard to go from a cover position behind desks, whatever, to up and chasing after him when you "think" he might be reloading."

Exactly.

4/19/2007 4:47:34 PM

wow, i wasn't aware this V-Tech guy had a six-shooter.

someone should've definitely charged at him while he was reloading his single six shooter weapon one bullet at a time. or was it a musket?

oh yeah, and it was totally obvious when this kid was reloading. i forget that the visibility was great, because he wasn't going to different classrooms or anything. this all happened in a single plain sight area, where all 80-100 people in the vicinty saw exactly where and who the shooter was.

4/19/2007 4:51:41 PM

I (heart) armchair hand-to-hand combat.

4/19/2007 4:53:46 PM

Look we can nitpick the details all day long.

Quote :

"Open cafeteria vs standing in a doorway"

Standing in a doorway your back is either facing the hallway or the class room.

Quote :

"15 yr old kid vs 23 yr old guy"

23 yr old dorky asian guy.

Quote :

"in fairness though, Cho mostly used 9mm hollowpoints...dude in the cafeteria was just busting some 22 LR (probably from a Ruger 10/22)"

Kip Kinkel had a 9mm Glock 19 which he used to shoot, or at least try and shoot, Jake Ryker, the student who ultimately stopped him.

The simple fact remains. If a significant fraction of Americans had the courage, cool, and presence of mind that Jake Ryker demonstrated, this sort of thing would be much less of a problem. We should be trying to instill that in our children, not trying to stamp it out.

4/19/2007 4:58:45 PM

Quote :

"15 yr old kid vs 23 yr old guy"

Are you suggesting that college kids are incapable of taking out someone their own age, but somehow these highschool kids were?

Quote :

"The simple fact remains. If a significant fraction of Americans had the courage, cool, and presence of mind that Jake Ryker demonstrated, this sort of thing would be much less of a problem. We should be trying to instill that in our children, not trying to stamp it out."

That's really what it comes down to. Remember Ryker had already been shot once when he moved to attack. Like I said, we need to teach our kids when it's appropriate to fight back. Someone trying to kill you is one of those times.

4/19/2007 5:06:36 PM

Well, I heard he shot at least a few people in the head or face. If you charge him, and he gets you between the eyes, you're screwed.

But I do thinks it's a little odd no one really tried to fight with him (as far as I know). There are plenty of accounts of people deciding to fight after serious wounds. In some cases, unarmed people have stopped gunmen.

Quote :

"23 yr old dorky asian guy."

Yes, because Asians are so easy to tackle. Look, I think it would have been great if someone managed to take him down, but, judging by results, Seung Hui Cho was one of the most dangerous gunmen ever. Maybe you think he looks dorky, but he sure took care of bizness.

Active defense is great. I encourage it. But it doesn't always work. Fighting back is better than just waiting your turn, but charging a gunman is still likely to result in your death.

4/19/2007 5:58:14 PM

I think you overestimate the odds of scoring a headshot with a handgun on a charging counter-attacker. It's possible yes, but not certain by any means. Those odds quickly shrink when you're talking about multiple counter-attackers.

4/19/2007 6:02:43 PM

Quote :

"I think you overestimate the odds of scoring a headshot with a handgun on a charging counter-attacker. It's possible yes, but not certain by any means. "

It doesn't have to be headshot, though Cho seemed able to manage those. Assuming your average student would be superior to Cho in hand-to-hand struggle is very dubious. He was obviously completely committed to his task. He's not going to give up when you grab him. And he's probably already shot you once or twice, so you're bleeding to death while grappling with him.

It's a better option than submitting to death, but I'd rather run away.

Quote :

"Those odds quickly shrink when you're talking about multiple counter-attackers."

Yeah, but I still suspect a man with a handgun has odds against two or three unarmed men.

4/19/2007 6:15:33 PM

I was hoping for some amusing cockamamie libertarian diatribe, and I was not disappointed.

4/19/2007 8:17:01 PM

Quote :

"We should be trying to instill that in our children, not trying to stamp it out. "

yeah, i don't know if anything could've been different that day, but this statement is 100% correct.

4/19/2007 8:19:12 PM

By the way, that Canadian example cited in the first post is really fucked up.

It can't believe they didn't at least run and call the cops or something.

4/19/2007 8:25:01 PM

Quote :

"Active defense is great. But it doesn't always work."

True. In order to have heroes, you usually need witnesses to live so they can tell the story. For all we know, some of the kids did rush him only to be cut down...allowing some others to get out without noticing what happened. If I were one of the parents, that would give me some solace.

Quote :

"the general sentiment is correct...just that this incident isn't really a "great" (for lack of a better word) illustration of it."

Yes, We can't be sure about what went on in those classrooms. Perhaps we simply assume the best and leave it at that.

4/19/2007 8:26:17 PM

Quote :

"For all we know, some of the kids did rush him only to be cut down...allowing some others to get out without noticing what happened."

Yes, that's entirely possible.

On the whole, though, I do think we're too inclined to submit. Too inclined to expect protection. I seriously doubt Cho would have done as well in, say, 16th-century England.

4/19/2007 8:33:23 PM

Quote :

"We have a flight or fight mechanism built into our human systems. When unable to use flight, we are left with fight. But where did the fight go? Is this a result of society, culture, of a incorrect theory of flight or fight?"

That's a huge simplification of fight or flight. If any animal is in a situation that he has little chance to survive in, they will always attempt to flee. This is why if you start shooting a gun or making loud noises, animals will run away. You don't really see deer running at a hunter to fight him while the hunter is shooting. When you hear and see a gun, your natural response is to get the hell out of there or hide. It's a great deal easier to sit here and play armchair chuck norris, but this is simply a case of the prisoner's dillema. The optimized case for every individual is to run, although it might be better for everyone if they charged. Suppose we have a game with two students and a shooter. Let's say it would play out like this:

      r  |   f 
  ================
r |30/30 | 90/10 |
  ----------------
f |10/90 | 70/70 |
  ================

4/24/2007 6:31:59 PM

Quote :

"It's a great deal easier to sit here and play armchair chuck norris"

LO FUCKING L


BEST QUOTE IN THE HISTORY OF TWW
















and I fucking hate Kris fucking communist scum.

4/24/2007 6:39:29 PM

Better than alias scum though.

4/24/2007 6:43:36 PM

better than you fucking sorry liberal ass, though.

4/24/2007 6:44:10 PM

You're worse than TrollTwista at this shit.

4/24/2007 6:50:11 PM

you're the fucking one to be talking about a troll you piece of shit.

4/24/2007 6:53:06 PM

I'm not the one hiding behind an alias.

4/24/2007 6:53:31 PM

I'm not the one trolling. So shut the fuck up.

4/24/2007 6:56:13 PM

What's trolling about wishing a bitchass alias would stop being a dipshit? You're on salisburyboys level now SandSanta, or whoever the fuck you are.

Are you that much of a pussy that you have to hide behind an alias?

4/24/2007 6:58:16 PM