etc.



http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/education/6589301.stm

Quote :

"Mathematicians set Chinese test Maths enthusiasts are being challenged to answer a sample question from Chinese university entrance tests. The tests are set for prospective science undergraduates. The UK's Royal Society of Chemistry is offering a £500 prize to one lucky but bright person who answers the question below correctly. It has also published a test used in a "well known and respected" English university - the society is not naming it - to assess the strength of incoming science undergraduates' maths skills. Try the two tests A glance at the two questions reveals how much more advanced is the maths teaching in China, where children learn the subject up to the age of 18, the society says. Schools and students are reluctant to consider A-level mathematics to age 18, because the subject is regarded as difficult Richard Pike Pupils 'urged to drop maths' (see: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/education/6588695.stm) Science undergraduates in England are likely not to have studied maths beyond GCSE level at the age of 16, it says. It has sounded a warning about Britain's future economic prospects which it claims are threatened by competition from scientists in China. RSC chief executive Richard Pike says mathematics is seen as integral to the sciences in China and its economy. "There, the concept of remedial courses at university would be inconceivable. "UK chemistry departments are often world-renowned for their creativity; however, mathematics tests set in England by many universities for undergraduate chemistry students in their first term to diagnose remedial requirements are disconcertingly simple. "They encapsulate the challenge facing this country," says Dr Pike. But a maths professor in England, William Shaw, has said the emphasis in mathematics teaching varies from country to country and the RSC's attack is "nonsense". Anyone wishing to enter the competition should go to the RSC website and send the correct answer by Friday 27 April to be included in a prize draw. "

Here is a question from a diagnostic test to assess the strength of incoming science undergraduates' maths skills set by a UK university:

(Note: this is for students already granted admission)







And here is the question from a Chinese university entrance test:

(Note: this is an entrance test, not a test you take once you are in)





[Edited on April 25, 2007 at 2:06 PM. Reason : ]

4/25/2007 2:05:22 PM

you know them chinese people they got this thing where when the government sounds an alarm, they all start jumping up and down where ever they are.

the resulting shock wave will travel through the earth and cause the west coast of the US to fall into the ocean.

its true.

4/25/2007 2:13:06 PM

doesn't A_1C go 'through' the prisim. its not on a face, how can it be perpindicular to BD. It's skew to BD.

Unless the mean like, the vectors.

4/25/2007 2:30:18 PM

nm

[Edited on April 25, 2007 at 2:32 PM. Reason : nm]

4/25/2007 2:32:24 PM

SHRIM FLIED LICE?

4/25/2007 3:19:13 PM

^rofl

4/25/2007 3:33:40 PM

^^^^^I'm not so sure that would be a bad thing sometimes.

4/25/2007 10:58:16 PM

sure they have math, but we've got movies and afterall that's all that really matters. [/sarcasm]

4/25/2007 11:01:52 PM

oh this is bullshit. Just because it's on the exam doesn't indicate how many people get these questions right or even how many or long they have to solve them.

4/25/2007 11:30:27 PM

you want shitty chicken or shitty beef?

4/25/2007 11:33:20 PM

i've never understood math being plural as maths. wtf.

4/25/2007 11:47:35 PM

They're both just geometry and trig.

4/26/2007 12:08:39 AM

I get suck where 1985 does.

I have trouble thinking in 3d anyway, though

4/26/2007 12:11:08 AM

^Yeah, I call bullshit.

4/26/2007 12:13:40 AM

i think expecting an english student to know a 345 right triangle is optomistic.

it has nothing to do with the skillset they are trying to learn.

4/26/2007 12:22:26 AM

^ i don't know what you mean by that, but a 345 triangle is pythagoras, and that is something taught in grade 6 to grade 9, depending on country/system of education.

so, it is something that everybody should know by the time they enter college.

4/26/2007 12:25:06 AM

maths = mathematics

math = mathmatic?

maths makes more sense to me

4/26/2007 12:28:41 AM

US: mathematics

UK: mathematics

4/26/2007 12:30:12 AM

Quote :

"i think expecting an english student to know a 345 right triangle is optomistic. it has nothing to do with the skillset they are trying to learn."

was that a serious post. in case it was, i will clarify that english is the language spoken at the university, not the curriculum.

4/26/2007 12:53:33 AM

^ actually doesn't english refer to the fact it is a school in England

4/26/2007 1:38:52 AM

^ i guess it is a bbc article isn't it. either way, it's not an exam for people studying the english language.

4/26/2007 1:59:59 AM

*stabs out eyes*

4/26/2007 2:44:48 AM

LOL the english question must be a joke! lol

4/26/2007 2:58:30 AM

geometry is fucking easy

its just angles and a little bit of trig

4/26/2007 3:01:29 AM

simonn, you are confused, I believe.

See the first gif and read what it says at top.

4/26/2007 3:10:37 AM

I thought I was really smart there for a second. I saw the first test and did it in my head real fast and thought that that one was the Chinese test.

Oh well

4/26/2007 7:54:03 AM

what some people and the dumb ass bbc, that can never seem to get their head out of china's ass, fail to realize is that the entire chinese entrance exam and what it means is different than in western countries. The entrance exams in china are the sole determining factor for where you will go to school and what you will study. It's really an "only way out" scenario. Their entrance exams are the result of thousands of years of civil-servant exams. The whole idea of do well on the exam and you'll escape poverty and be somebody is ingrained in their heads. China's education system has so many many problems on many many levels and all the bbc can do is blow smoke up their ass, what a big surprise there.


[Edited on April 26, 2007 at 8:20 AM. Reason : .]

4/26/2007 8:19:12 AM

too bad that shit is worthless for the most part

yes they are smart as hell when it comes to shit like that but I have direct contact and work with our china based company on a daily basis and let me say they are absolutely worthless when it comes to paying attention to detail in a REAL WORLD engineering setting, they have to be babied every step of they way cause they cant apply shit to an actual engineering/manufacturing setting

4/26/2007 8:21:57 AM

Quote :

"^ i don't know what you mean by that, but a 345 triangle is pythagoras, and that is something taught in grade 6 to grade 9, depending on country/system of education."

I think you would be lucky to find 1 in 10 adults that know what the tangent of an angle is.

4/26/2007 8:24:47 AM

I've never forgotten the sohcahtoa thing and I haven't used that in a few years now. Just one of those things that sticks with you I guess. Same with the Pythagorian therom or however you spell it

4/26/2007 8:36:23 AM

For all of those math skills, those motherfucking slants still can't drive a fucking car.

4/26/2007 8:50:45 AM

Quote :

"I thought I was really smart there for a second. I saw the first test and did it in my head real fast and thought that that one was the Chinese test."

i did the same

4/26/2007 8:54:37 AM

Quote :

"A glance at the two questions reveals how much more advanced is the maths teaching in China,"

Bullshit. The Chinese question is a math question from a MATH exam while the UK question is a math question from a CHEMISTRY exam.

At what point can anyone legitimately take a single question from a test and count that as representative of the test as a whole?

I'm certain if I took the easiest problem on the Chinese test, and the hardest problem on the English test, the story would be completely the opposite. This is a ridiculous comparison.


Clearly, the real problem articles like this expose is that people have pathetic critical reading and thinking skills.

4/26/2007 9:01:04 AM

Listen, Chinese people being better at math (or maths if you want to talk like a queer) is a good thing, i want those people to know exactly where to sew my nikes

three dimensional geometry should help

4/26/2007 9:02:49 AM

^^sorry, you aren't the 'best' at math, its ok, you'll live.

4/26/2007 9:46:33 AM

I assume you weren't able to refute any of my arguments, hence the trolling.

nice try, though.

4/26/2007 10:11:04 AM

i'm embarrassed

no really i am

4/26/2007 10:29:19 AM

Quote :

"Bullshit. The Chinese question is a math question from a MATH exam while the UK question is a math question from a CHEMISTRY exam. "

WHERE does it say the chinese question is from a MATH exam?

Quote :

"Clearly, the real problem articles like this expose is that people have pathetic critical reading and thinking skills."

ahem...

As for this:

Quote :

""A glance at the two questions reveals how much more advanced is the maths teaching in China,""

That is a 100% true statement. All you have to do is flip through math/physics textbooks from China, Singapore, Hong Kong, etc, and you will be blown off your feet.


[Edited on April 26, 2007 at 6:36 PM. Reason : ]

4/26/2007 6:36:11 PM

An interesting point to bring up, i think, is that some countries (particularly in eastern europe, who also are known to have much higher math skills) dont necessarily know more, they just study different types.

While I was in hungary studying, the high school kids were doing number theory and graph theory. But none of them knew what calculus was. So, to be far, we should be looking at everything they are doing, and not just a single problem.

4/26/2007 9:33:34 PM

...are you saying they weren't teaching it, or they hadn't figured it out yet.
I would hope that someone using higher math would be able to figure out The Calculus.

[Edited on April 26, 2007 at 10:02 PM. Reason : ...and dismiss all of Newton's observations in The Principia as obvious...]

4/26/2007 10:01:16 PM

to be fair, both problems are just geometry. the one allegedly from a chinese entrance exam is more complicated, i.e. it has more layers and given info, but not necessarily different.

4/26/2007 10:03:26 PM

Quote :

"both problems are just geometry"

Quote :

"the one allegedly from a chinese entrance exam is more complicated"

OMG SUCH PROFOUND OBSERVATIONS!!!! HOW THE HELL DID YOU FIGURE THAT OUT???

really, it is more complicated?

WELL NO FUCKING SHIT... THAT'S WHAT THE WHOLE FUSS IS ABOUT.

and what is this "allegedly"?

4/27/2007 5:43:37 PM

Blah. forget it.

[Edited on April 27, 2007 at 6:00 PM. Reason : this whole thing is stupid and not worth it.]

4/27/2007 5:57:01 PM

^

Quote :

"Bull Shit. Have you ever even been to China? I am sure you haven't because I have and most of they books they use are the same as ours. *sometimes* they will use slightly more advanced books but nothing that would "blow me away". But please, feel free to make up other bullshit, it's very entertaining."

No I haven't been to China, but I have seen math textbooks from China, HK, and Singapore. The Chinese textbook was in Chinese, and their own syllabus, the other two were in English, and they were modified A-Level syllabi.

Double and triple integrals, and vector calculus is not taught in the US nor in the UK (in HS).

Maybe the Chinese book was from an advanced course or a really good school or something. They are such a big country, so I am sure there are several syllabi and boards of education. But Singapore and HK being small, have the same system of education throughout the country (different between the two of them, but same within each country), so I am sure the textbooks I saw from those two countries were representative of what is taught there in most schools.

[Edited on April 27, 2007 at 6:03 PM. Reason : ]

4/27/2007 6:03:05 PM

ok let's continue...

Quote :

"But Singapore and HK being small, have the same system of education throughout the country(different between the two of them, but same within each country), so I am sure the textbooks I saw from those two countries were representative of what is taught there in most schools."

That whole argument is completely vacuous. You can't even begin to tell me you know all about the Chinese education system just because you saw a textbook once in you life.

In Chinese education system in High School you can choose different paths based on your strengths. It's is almost equivalent to selecting a "major". Some people will take calculus and some will take nothing more than algebra.

So what you saw was an advanced class that not everybody will take. Big deal. I live near a middle school in maryland that teaches calculus. Does that mean everybody in maryland learns calculus in middle school? Absolutely not.

Furthermore, the function of the chinese college entrance exams are different. They serve a different purpose and have different results than they do in the west.

Besides, the most basic question here is that just because the question is on the exam, we have been given no information on how long they have to solve it and what percent of students answer it right. I am sure there are some that can get it right but then those are selected to attend the top universities for math/science related field.


Let me explain about the chinese entrance exams. Like I said you select a major concentration in High School then before you take the college entrance exam you select the field you want to study. Math/Science , Literature/foreign languages etc... Then you will take a test based on what you selected. So, not all test are created equal. It's like the math section of the general GRE versus the Math GRE. They are very different. After you take the test you will receive a letter telling you which schools you can attend and what major you can choose at that school.

------------------------
All that being said. I do recognize that they study A LOT more and the subjects *can* be more advanced. We just have a different education system here, and I am very glad I don't live in China.
It's not so much that they are smarter, but how to solve these problems are drilled in their heads for at least 14-15 hours a day. They are very good at applying algorithms to solving problems-for what it's worth. I have been there and seen it first hand.

I am unimpressed.

[Edited on April 27, 2007 at 6:43 PM. Reason : .]

[Edited on April 27, 2007 at 6:44 PM. Reason : .]

4/27/2007 6:29:46 PM

^ Dude, that's what i just said, did you even read what I said? And you quoted the wrong thing.

Quote :

"Maybe the Chinese book was from an advanced course or a really good school or something. They are such a big country, so I am sure there are several syllabi and boards of education."

And that's what you repeated. I admitted I saw one book, but I also said that China is huge, and perhaps the book was an advanced one that not everybody takes.

Quote :

""But Singapore and HK being small, have the same system of education throughout the country(different between the two of them, but same within each country), so I am sure the textbooks I saw from those two countries were representative of what is taught there in most schools.""

And then I said that Singapore and HK are different, because they are small, and they don't have much variety as can be found in China (or the US for that matter). They have a modified version of the British education system (O-levels and A-levels). The modification is that there is greater emphasis on the breadth and depth of the level of math and physics covered. I have seen several books from these countries, and because they have standardized education (like the UK, and unlike the US), the books I saw were representative of what is taught there. And yes, the books were pretty advanced.


[Edited on April 27, 2007 at 7:25 PM. Reason : ]

4/27/2007 7:17:11 PM

well I can't speak for the HK system and I know even less about Singapore so I won't comment about that either. In HK I can believe, as you say, is a derivative of the British system. But alas, the math question you first posted was from China, not HK.

[Edited on April 27, 2007 at 7:25 PM. Reason : sp]

4/27/2007 7:24:40 PM

My wife took A-level mathematics in HK. I have to say, she knows more calculus from highschool than any of the entering grad. students I have met in mathematics. I've seen some of the problems they learned how to solve. I wouldn't even attempt to give them to my calculus class here
(ma 141 or ma 241), they're just harder then the level we teach at NCSU. When I want a bonus question I go look in her A-level pure mathematics book.

Now that I have taught calculus for several years I feel like I'm about as good as she is at it.

Of course not everybody takes A-level math in HK. But according to my wife about 1/4 of the students do since it is required for science concentrations.

Anyway, its not exactly a secret the US public education(K-12) lags other countries, especially in math.

4/27/2007 8:11:13 PM

^

Damn.

Power of the internet TWW.

Mention the most obscure thing on TWW, and someone who has experience with it will find TWW and post about it, even if they are a n00b.



Thanks for your post.

Is your wife from HK, or American but her family was living there?


[Edited on April 27, 2007 at 8:19 PM. Reason : BTW, yoru wife has nice handwriting (I am assuming it is hers, on the test solutions in PDF)]

4/27/2007 8:15:43 PM

She grew up in HK then decided to go to the USA to study physics. Her family is from China and they don't even speak English.

I'm not sure if the pdf's you mention are my wife's, but yes she has very nice handwriting.

4/27/2007 9:07:52 PM