I have the next two days in the office by myself with minimal work to get done. I want to have some intelligent sports arguments. I'll start it off.

Best baseball pitcher of our generation (say '75 to the present)? Use counting statistics or averages or whatever to back it up.

I'm going to argue Pedro Martinez. Here are some numbers to go over:

- The lowest park/league/time adjusted ERA in baseball history by a wide margin (+160 with the next best being +148 --- +100 is league average). The next closest in this era is Roger Clemens at +144. For comparison sake, as dominant as Johan Santana has been this early in his career he is at +143.
- 2,998 career strikeouts in 2,645 IP
- The 4th highest Win% in history at 69.1% (Santana is at 70.7%; Clemens at 66.2%)
- 10.199 K/9, good for 3rd all time (of course Kerry Wood is 2nd which means that Pedro is, in essence 2nd)
- Arguably the best 7 year stretch in baseball history, rivaled only by Sandy Koufax.
- The third lowest career WHIP in baseball history at 1.0258. The only one in this generation in the Top 20 is Johan Santana at 19th with a 1.1020.

Prove me wrong. Second and third are Clemens and Maddux..

V then don't respond fucker..

[Edited on May 16, 2007 at 12:55 PM. Reason : x]

5/16/2007 12:53:41 PM

I would say Clemens or Ryan, however I don't feel like using any statistics

5/16/2007 12:55:25 PM

This has been argued in other threads though. Pedro definitely has the stats and his seven year run of dominance was unreal. The only thing that knocks Pedro is his durability.

5/16/2007 12:59:01 PM

^^^ok here are my stats

Ryan: 7 no-no's

Clemens: 2 20K games

5/16/2007 1:07:29 PM

First off, it always surprises people to hear this, but Nolan Ryan actually wasn't that great of a pitcher. He was a good pitcher for a long time who struck a lot of people out because he threw hard, but that's about it. He never won a Cy Young award, only made 8 All-Star teams in 27 years, only won 20 games twice in his career, and had a career won-loss record of 324-292. He had a decent ERA, but he pitched in the dead-ball era of the 70's-80's.

Now, to the actual question. I suppose it depends on what you mean by "best." If I had one game with my life dependent on it, I'd take Pedro from the '98-'00 era. But in terms of overall statistics, I think you have to go with Clemens. Pedro had better stats over a short period of time, but Clemens has been astounding for over 20 years. His numbers over 23 years are staggering. Lifetime ERA of 3.10, Whip of 1.17, and an average of 17 wins/year.

[Edited on May 16, 2007 at 1:19 PM. Reason : wrong stats ]

[Edited on May 16, 2007 at 1:20 PM. Reason : cuz]

5/16/2007 1:11:09 PM

holler back when clemens and pedro do advil commercials

5/16/2007 1:12:22 PM

Yeah if Pedro can return to greatness like he had in his BoSox days for 4-5 more years then he barely squeeks by Clemens. Ya gotta factor in that Al vs. NL pitching ERA average too....

btw you should rename this thread title to something that has to do with Pedro and obviously being a big Mets fan....

[Edited on May 16, 2007 at 1:18 PM. Reason : AL / NL]

[Edited on May 16, 2007 at 1:35 PM. Reason : \/ I like your arguement as well, Randy trumps Pedro also unless Pedro has 4-5 more good years]

5/16/2007 1:18:17 PM

I'll make a case for Randy Johnson

# 4,544 career strikeouts in (3rd overall)
# 10.86 strikeouts per 9 innings over career (1st overall...of course Kerry Wood is 2nd which means that Pedro is, in essence 2nd)
# 5 Cy Young's to Pedro's 3, including 4 straight from 1999-2002
# 4,581 strikeouts in 3,828 innings pitched
# 2 no hitters, including a perfect game at 40 years old (In fairness, Pedro did have a perfect game thru 9 innings til Bip Roberts broke it up in the 10th)
# Has games of 18, 19, 19 and 20 strikeouts
# Killed a bird with a pitch
# Better mullet than Pedro

Pedro from 1997-2000: 905 IP, 1153 K's, 203 BB's, 2.16 ERA, 11.46 K/9, 2.01 BB/9, 0.92 WHIP.

I'd consider these 4 years Pedro's peak as 1997 was the first year he was truly dominant, and 2001 was when he started having injury problems. This includes his 2000 season, which i consider to be one of the most dominant pitching season ever, though maybe not the most valuable because he only pitched 217 innings.

Now here's Johnson's 1999-2002: 1030 IP, 1417 K's, 288 BB's, 2.48 ERA, 12.38 K/9, 2.52 BB/9, 1.04 WHIP.

These two stretches rank above or just below Koufax's 1963-1966 and Maddux's 1992-1995.

-If you look at Pedro at his best, he's roughly equivalent in value to Randy Johnson aged 33-40. Pedro's gaudy ERA+ numbers don't mean nearly as much as they're made out because of the meager workload over which they were carried out.

- Randy also had two great seasons (1993, 1995) before 1997, Pedro had no great seasons before 97'.

People were scared to face Pedro because he made them look foolish

People were scared to face Johnson because he scared the shit out of them.

5/16/2007 1:33:58 PM

People were scared to face Pedro because he'd grab their old ass by their bald head and take them down

5/16/2007 1:35:31 PM

Quote :

"Pedro and obviously being a big Mets fan"

I don't think this influenced his argument as nearly all of Pedro's dominance occured in Boston.

It would be like saying a Patriots fan calling Junior Seau the best linebacker ever.

5/16/2007 1:36:07 PM

Its all about whos got who right now with baseball. Im an A's fan and you dont hear me say shit about Zito, Huddy, Mulder, Tejada, Foulke, Giambi ... the sad list goes on....

BoSox fans prolly dont wanna hear that Pedro could be the greatest pitcher of our generation because he isnt there anymore. They have an overpayed Jap now....

5/16/2007 1:39:28 PM

Greg Maddux


He is one of only nine pitchers in Major League history to achieve 300 career wins and 3000 strikeouts.

He won more games during the 1990s than any other pitcher.

At least 15 wins every year from 1988-2004, and 15 wins again in 2006.

During the 1994 season he posted an ERA of 1.56, the second lowest ERA since Bob Gibson's historic 1.12 in 1968.

16 Gold Gloves

4 Strait CY Young Awards 92-95

As of the end of the 2006 season, he is 120-0 (2 no decisions) in his career when given 5 runs or more.

He has been an All Star 8 Times


Best Season?? - 1995 (19-2) 1.63 ERA

5/16/2007 1:45:43 PM

Quote :

"Clemens or Ryan"

Pedro is the man but I doubt he barely makes top 5
Ryan and Clemens dominated hitters and their longevity is ridiculous

Pedro has another couple years at most with the last couple (including this year) not being "pedro" type years
Clemens has been dominate all his life. Two years ago at age 42/43? he had a 1.8 ERA (something ridiculous like that).

Leave it to a mets fan to say pedro is the best since 75

Johan is making a run at being one of the greatest pitchers ever if he can keep his health like it is now when he's 35-40. Being a huge Mariners fan, I think King Felix could be one of the great. He's only 21 and has the best stuff of almost anyone in the league.



Ryan: lifetime ERA: 3.19 with 5714 K's in 5386 innings over a span of 27 seasons He never had more than 22 wins but that has a lot to do with the teams he was on.

Clemens: lifetime ERA: 3.10 with 4604 K's in 4817 innings, 348 wins and an average WHIP of 1.17 over 23+ seasons. At age 42 he had a 1.87 ERA with 211 innings. That is ridiculous.

Martinez: ERA of 2.81 makes him one of the greats but only 2645.7 innings and not many more to go is not to great.

[Edited on May 16, 2007 at 2:36 PM. Reason : yo]

5/16/2007 2:22:49 PM

I'll take part in this when were start talking about the 50's on forward. Sandy Koufax has no one even close to him until you go back even further to the Walter Johnson, Christy Mathewson days. Keep in mind that Koufax stopped pitching at 30. I know this is a 75' on debate but Sandord needs mentioned.

Quote :

"Koufax's career peaked with a run of six outstanding seasons from 1961 to 1966, before arthritis ended his career at age 30. He was named the National League's Most Valuable Player in 1963, and won the 1963, 1965, and 1966 Cy Young Awards by unanimous votes; in all three seasons, he won the pitcher's triple crown by leading the league (indeed, both major leagues) in wins, strikeouts, and earned run average.[1][2] A notoriously difficult pitcher for batters to face, he was the first major leaguer to pitch more than three no-hitters, to average fewer than seven hits allowed per nine innings pitched in his career, and to strike out more than nine batters per nine innings pitched in his career.[3] Among NL pitchers with at least 2,000 innings pitched who have debuted since 1913, he has the highest career winning percentage (.655), and had the lowest career ERA (2.76) until Tom Seaver ended 1974 with a 2.47 mark. His 2,396 career strikeouts ranked 7th in major league history upon his retirement, and trailed only Warren Spahn's total of 2,583 among left-handers. Retiring at the peak of his career, he became, at age 36 and 20 days, the youngest player ever elected to the Baseball Hall of Fame.[4]"

5/16/2007 2:31:45 PM

I actually first made the Pedro argument on TWW in '03 before he was even close to being a Met.. though I'm also a Red Sox fan.

Koufax is hard to argue against though remember he pitched a lot of his career with the higher mound against natural players... also, Pedro has a better winning % than Koufax also...

Frankly, I don't think Nolan Ryan should even be in the conversation. He was a HOFer but much of that is due to longevity and his no-hitters... Tom Seaver >>>>>> Nolan Ryan. Hell, I would argue that Jerry Koosman >>>>> Nolan Ryan.

[Edited on May 16, 2007 at 2:38 PM. Reason : x]

5/16/2007 2:37:13 PM

If people want to argue that Nolan Ryan wasn't that great of a pitcher due to some things that's fine, but I'm sick and tired of people using Cy Young awards and wins to justify their argument. They have an impact, but they don't necessarily mean anything.

So for his entire career he was never the ABSOLUTE BEST pitcher for ONE SINGLE season? So what? So by that argument are you willing to say that Eric Gagne, Frank Viola, and Bartolo Colon are all better pitchers than Ryan? If you do you don't know what you're talking about.

The wins argument comes up every year in the Cy Young debate, but it's just as meaningless. In 2005 Roger Clemens pitched 211.1 innings with an ERA of 1.87, but had only 13 wins. Are you going to try and argue that because he only had 13 wins he wasn't the most dominant pitcher in the NL? Don't be stupid.

[Edited on May 16, 2007 at 2:49 PM. Reason : a]

5/16/2007 2:48:19 PM

normally there are no Intelligent Sports Arguments on this board without a fight breaking out

you all are doing a good job

a tip: dont start any Walmart fan debates (they make all involved sound dumb because there is no way to settle it, agree to disagree)

5/16/2007 2:51:00 PM

^^Clemens has absolutely no run support that year

He had three straight starts early that year where he pitched 7 shutout innings and Houston lost all 3 games 1-0.

I thought he should have gotten a lot more Cy consideration than he did, but wins are big in the publice eye.

But they're very misleading. Who was one win off the NL lead last year?

Steve Fucking Trachsel.

[Edited on May 16, 2007 at 2:58 PM. Reason : x]

5/16/2007 2:57:56 PM

Quote :

"Killed a bird with a pitch"

That is one of my all time favorite highlights.

5/16/2007 3:08:30 PM

it will never happen again

5/16/2007 3:10:19 PM

^word has gotten around the bird community.

Back to the argument. http://www.hardballtimes.com recently ranked the top 40 pitchers of all time, based on their career stats. Link below. Since NyM# has restricted this argument to >1975 pitchers, the list looks like this:

3. Clemens
7. Seaver (a name no one has brought up, but was as good as there's ever been)
8. Maddux
10. P. Niekro
11. S. Carlton
17. R. Johnson
19. J. Palmer
20. Eckersley
22. Bert Blyleven
26. Glavine
30. Nolan Ryan (again, it bears repeating, Nolan Ryan was a very good pitcher, but not a great one)
32. Smoltz
35. Pedro

Pedro's ranking is obviously low, but again, his numbers are only good over a relatively short time, and these are based on career numbers. The list makers do say that in his prime, Pedro was the best ever.

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/the-all-time-best-pitchers/

5/16/2007 3:46:36 PM

That list is basically all 'counting statistics.' Not including Sandy Koufax on a Top 40 pitchers of alltime list is blasphemous.

[Edited on May 16, 2007 at 3:58 PM. Reason : I mentioned Seaver though, but his prime years were right at the arbitrary cutoff year I gave]

5/16/2007 3:55:05 PM

here's a stat i'd like to see

ill post maddux's (not sure how up to date when these stats are, cant ifnd a date on my ref. page.. i think it's prior to this season)

if you throw out his first year with the cubs (2-4 in 31 innings)

he's 331-199 (.625), while the team he's played for is 1853-1481 (.556)

having a win percentage that is 7% higher than your teams is kinda impressive.


(don't forget the 16 gold gloves... and having had pitched 200+ innings for 18 straight years...)

5/16/2007 4:19:31 PM

Phil Niekro was a baller.




Knuckleball ftw.

5/16/2007 4:22:56 PM

^^ For comparisons sake Pedro is 206-92 (.691) and his teams are 1269-1094 (.537). A difference of over 16%!!

5/16/2007 4:30:14 PM

screwball ftw

5/16/2007 4:52:19 PM

i thought we were just talking about pitchers after 1975

you also have to consider that baseball was totally different back in the day

i bet pitchers like maddux ,clemens, johnson (mid-late 90's maddux, clemens, and johnson), santana, hernandez, smoltz, etc. would blow away hitters of the pre 1970's

with that said I say my top five (or top 7)
1) Clemens
2) Seaver
3) Maddux
5) Carlton
5) Pedro
5) Ryan
5) Walter Johnson (absolutely ridiculous numbers but pitched in very early 1900's)

with honorable mentions to grover alexander (same boat as walter johnson), randy johnson, warren spahn, mathewson




[Edited on May 16, 2007 at 5:50 PM. Reason : i'd mention Koufax but retiring at 30 really hurt him]

5/16/2007 5:32:10 PM

^probably...but at the same time, a lot of the old school pitchers would pitch a lot more than once or twice a week (on a busy week)...some of those guys would throw a 9 inning game and then throw the 2nd 9 inning game of a double header...not a lot of mid relievers and setup guys back then

but its always difficult to compare different eras in any sport, although its often fun to do

5/16/2007 5:35:41 PM

Greg Maddux:

i know he's already been defended but here are a couple things I think are the most important:

Only guy ever to win 15+ games 17 times in a row... and did it again in 2006.
Put together the best 4 year stretch of pitching ever from 1992-1995 with ERAs of 2.18, 2.36, 1.56, and 1.63 while winning 4 Cy Youngs

im gonna say these are two things that no pitcher will ever accomplish again

[Edited on May 16, 2007 at 8:48 PM. Reason : ]

5/16/2007 8:46:21 PM

Quote :

"First off, it always surprises people to hear this, but Nolan Ryan actually wasn't that great of a pitcher. He was a good pitcher for a long time who struck a lot of people out because he threw hard, but that's about it. He never won a Cy Young award, only made 8 All star teams"

If he was only "good" Then why aren't all these good pithcers today atleast getting 2 no hitters. Hell, its rare as hell for someone to get even 2. Ryan had 7. SEVEN. You could pitch for 100 years, and 7 no hitters would still be amazing. Maybe he wasn't consistantly a great pitcher, but his stats are and the fact that he was able to pitch as long as he did factors in to his greatness.

5/16/2007 9:06:11 PM

WINS DON'T MATTER. That's kinda like when you guys bitch about P Riv not getting the heisman... because he didn't win alot of games so he must suck.

Pedro is good, but Nolan Ryan can hold his own.

Nolan Ryan: 61 shutouts (.10 per 9 innings)
Pedro : 17 shutouts (.05 per 9 innings)

Nolan Ryan: 7 no-hitters
Pedro : 0 no-hitters

Nolan Ryan: 1.69 era (1981)
Pedro : 1.74 era (2000)

Nolan Ryan: 383 strikeouts (1973)
Pedro : 313 strikerouts(1999)

Nolan Ryan is all-time leader in:
strikeouts (5714)
no-hitters (7)
games with 10-or-more strikeouts (215)
games with 10-or-more strikeouts in a season (23)
300 strikeout seasons (6)
lowest average hits per nine innings (6.55)

opponents batting average (.203) (most important stat in baseball for pitchers)
and this is over 27 seasons...

Pedro is at .209 right now, and that is just going to rise as he gets older






[Edited on May 16, 2007 at 10:20 PM. Reason : ok]

5/16/2007 10:08:00 PM

Well based on stats, other than wins, which don't carry too much weight as to how good a pitcher is, it appears as if Mr Ryan has won this argument.


NEXT!

5/16/2007 10:27:42 PM

^^winner

I failed to notice the ridiculously low BAA. I can't believe he never won a CY Young. It was probably for the lack of wins by Ryan.

I still say Clemens is up there with Ryan too.

5/16/2007 10:51:28 PM

I thought this thread was going to be about Jay Davis > Marcus Stone

5/16/2007 11:09:03 PM

I'm going to make 2 lists for you. One is a list of guys who have thrown at least one no-hitter in their career. The other is a list of guys who have NEVER thrown a no-hitter. I'm not going to tell you which list is which. You just hafta guess.

List 1

Roger Clemens
Greg Maddux
Steve Carlton
Tom Glavine
John Smoltz

List 2

Joe Cowley
Juan Nieves
Tommy Greene
Bo Belinsky
Mike Warren
Dave Morehead
Rex Barney
George Culver

Look, Nolan Ryan's 7 no-hitters is an outstanding record that will never be topped, just like his 5714 K's. He was a very good pitcher, a hall-of-famer without question. But no one who knows baseball seriously considers him among the all-time great pitchers. But don't take my word for it. Bill James, Rob Neyer, Peter Gammons, and many other baseball analysts and historians have made lists (which can be found on the internets) of the greatest pitchers of all time. Some base their arguments on statistics (lists that are more likely to have guys like Walter Johnson or Christy Mathewson, or even Lefty Grove near the top) and some base their arguments on pitching dominance, even if the long-term stats aren't there (lists that are more likely to have Gibson, Koufax, or Pedro near the top). But neither of those types of people will have Ryan in the top 10, most likely not even in the top 15-20.

Again, Ryan pitched his entire career in the greatest dead-ball era this side of the 1920's.

5/17/2007 12:05:14 AM

a no hitter is like hole in 1

a great achievement, but it involves a lot of luck and doesn't indicate prolonged success

You can ace a hole and still shoot 90, and you can throw a no hitter and still be in the minors the next year

5/17/2007 12:09:20 AM

nolan ryan must have had no runs support, from looking at what davelen21 posted he should have had a lot more wins

and with holding the record on that many stats, including opponents batting average, it would seem he'd have to be recognized as one of the greats

anyone who really feels like it, cause i sure dont, try to find out ryan's support from his team's offense...maybe he had the problem that clemens had last year

[Edited on May 17, 2007 at 1:02 AM. Reason : jhj]

5/17/2007 1:02:04 AM

Quote :

"a no hitter is like hole in 1 a great achievement, but it involves a lot of luck and doesn't indicate prolonged success You can ace a hole and still shoot 90, and you can throw a no hitter and still be in the minors the next year "

True, and I will give you that. Some of the worst golfers can get holes in one on the PGA tour. And some bad pitchers might luck out and get a no hitter every now and then in MLB. But do you not understand how INSANE 7 no hitters is??? Sure a pitcher might get lucky and get one once. Maybe twice, hell...even 3 times. And I will even give you the 4th on luck too. But can you honestly not comprehend how many 7 no hitters is? You do not get 7 no hitters on luck. Thats why pitchers in MLB rarely even get 2. Ryan has 7.

[Edited on May 17, 2007 at 1:28 AM. Reason : .]

5/17/2007 1:08:52 AM

baseball sucks too much to have intelligent arguments about

5/17/2007 9:51:07 AM

Quote :

"opponents batting average (.203) (most important stat in baseball for pitchers) and this is over 27 seasons... "

WRONG. The most telling stat for a pitcher is definitely the WHIP. Factor that in with Nolan Ryan and see how far you go.

PEDRO 1.026
RYAN 1.247

Quote :

"and with holding the record on that many stats, including opponents batting average,"

Again, WHIP is the tell-tale sign of how good a pitcher is. Opponents BA is only 1/2 the equation.

[Edited on May 17, 2007 at 10:02 AM. Reason : .]

5/17/2007 9:58:14 AM

5/17/2007 10:12:14 AM

next sports argument?

5/17/2007 11:02:26 AM

Id love to see Nolan vs. Pedro in a fight. Hell, we might get to see Clemens vs. Pedro in a fight someday up in the NY. talk about ratings!

5/17/2007 11:07:20 AM