My husband and I just bought a house and we're thinking about installing some solar panels sometime in the next year or so. Has anyone had any experience with residential solar power (i.e. cost of parts and installation, effect on power bill, upkeep, etc.)? I've already looked online, I just wanted some first-hand accounts.

6/21/2007 12:53:28 PM

its pretty expensive

i know thats not too much help, but from what i've heard you don't really "break even" until many years down the road...also it helps to install other things to compliment the panels...almost like designing your house to be efficient as far as solar angles, certain materials for flooring and walls to be well insulated or retain heat, etc

[Edited on June 21, 2007 at 1:01 PM. Reason : .]

6/21/2007 12:58:12 PM

^Yeah, I kind of gathered that it would be pretty expensive initially. I just haven't been able to find full-package prices, just prices for the panels. I can't tell if it's going to be like $3000 or more like $10,000.

We are trying to live as "green" as possible, while still remaining comfortable. This is the first house that we have ever owned so it's our first chance to really be able to do a lot of earth-friendly imrpovements.

6/21/2007 1:10:03 PM

The single largest consumer of home power is the AC/heating. Whatever marginal savings you would get from solar power (once you recoup the cost), you could probably beat by using less AC/heat and making it more energy efficient.

6/21/2007 1:12:17 PM

If you search around enough you can find the reports from the solar house at the McKimmon center.

If I remember correctly, they basically concluded that it costs a lot more to go solar than just paying for power. They were selling power back onto the grid so that they wouldn't have to purchase battery cells to power the house at night. In some areas you do not have that option and you would have to go with the cells which will inevitably fail every 5 years or so like your car battery.

I've heard stories about folks running old diesel engines off biodiesel hooked up to their house through a PTO coupler. There is supposed to be a home in Carrboro that uses an old Mercedes engine to power the whole house and sells power back onto the grid for a profit. They make the biodiesel off vegetable oil that is sourced for free from local restaurants so the cost of fuel is minimal. I'd still like to see some real numbers before I would endorse it myself. And really, who has time for all that shit.

[Edited on June 21, 2007 at 1:17 PM. Reason : .]

6/21/2007 1:13:37 PM

Solar is expensive if you are going photovoltaics. The payoff is long, about 8 years last I checked, and that includes the discount offered by the different states. Be ready to spend around $10,000 startup, depending on the array size/batteries/transformers, etc. A solar water heater however pays for itself very quickly, and would be a good first step.

If you live somewhere with a fairly constant wind, then a little wind turbine is much more cost effective than photovoltaics.

As mentioned before, one of the biggest problems is storing the energy once you make it. If you can sell it back to the grid during the day (which are peak hours for energy consumption on the grid) and pull energy off at night, then it does become a fairly viable option. If you have to store it in batteries, then its not so great.

6/21/2007 1:25:43 PM

^ agree

6/21/2007 1:30:45 PM

Thanks everyone. That definitely gives me something to think about.

6/21/2007 2:56:14 PM

Quote :

"A solar water heater however pays for itself very quickly, and would be a good first step. "

How much do those run?

When I was in Turkey last summer, I saw those on top of >75% ceilings, in almost all the cities/towns I visited. I was shocked... I guess it must be cheap to have those?

6/21/2007 3:01:07 PM

solar water is very un reliable. while the technology has come a long way since it first came on the scene in the 70's, it's still not suitable as a primary system. alot of people that do solar setups will use an electric heater as a holding tank. that way they can switch over to it should the need arise.

right now, the hot ticket in efficient water heating is going to be your on demand type systems. these range from tankless, to tanked, to miniature boilers. alot of people are implementing these systems to heat their houses as well via radiant floor heat and heat exchangers in furnaces.

both the performance and engery efficiency of these is unbeatable. they are a hefty initial investment comparative to conventional gas fired or electric units though. they do pay for themselves quickly, and the additional uses and convenience of never ending hot water is attractive.

[Edited on June 21, 2007 at 3:21 PM. Reason : .]

6/21/2007 3:20:24 PM

FYI, new solar technology will be hitting the US market this winter and into next year. By the end of 2008/2009 you will be able to get much larger solar cells with much higher efficiency for about 1/20th the cost of current cells.

Unfortunately we (the US) is going to be about a year behind the curve (hence 08/09 versus early next year) because Japan and Europe have a much higher demand for the initial production.

And yes, you should DEFINITELY sell it back to the grid versus trying to store it. Wait it out another year and you will be able to get much much better options.

http://www.nanosolar.com/ is the big commercial company right now, they have a lot of good information, but there is an entire startup industry in California going crazy to get this shit into mass production by year end.

6/21/2007 4:03:51 PM

^yep.

i for one am very happy to see the technology finally catch up, even if it's still a little ways off. being a company that specializes in higher end and custom work, this should be a very good thing for our business.

[Edited on June 21, 2007 at 7:39 PM. Reason : ,]

6/21/2007 7:38:44 PM

just calculate what power you will get when the technology catchs up to get all the light out of a square meter at 100% efficiency.

its still crap

[Edited on June 23, 2007 at 5:33 PM. Reason : .]

6/23/2007 5:33:07 PM

That is seriously the stupidest thing I've heard all day.

6/23/2007 6:37:17 PM

~1.3 kW/m^2 @ ~100% eff.

6/23/2007 6:37:36 PM

If you want to be green, one of the best things you can do is use geothermal heating/AC.
Uses a lot less electricity, and will actually get you a return on the investment.

6/24/2007 5:14:42 PM

If you're looking to connect to the grid, then you're going to spend approximately $10,000 per kW of generation capacity for hardware and installation. The smallest units are usually 2kW, and a lot of people in the Hillsborough area are installing them currently. You'll be lucky to get around 150kWh of generation return off of them each month if your house and property are ideal for solar power, and you will never under any circumstances recoup your investment. If you are just wanting to conserve energy, there are hundreds of more cost effective means available to you. Getting heat pumps and hot water heaters with better efficiency ratings would be a much smarter decision.

Also, be careful when hearing the sales pitches for the hardware manufacturers. A lot of them sell products that don't meet IEEE 1547, and no utility will let you connect distributed generation to their grid if you don't meet this IEEE standard. The vendors will try to convince you otherwise and claim that their product works the way it is supposed to, but they'll be paid and done with the installation before the utility comes out and tells you otherwise. Also make sure that if their product does meet IEEE 1547 that they meet the most current code. There is going to be another addition sometime in the next year.

6/24/2007 9:28:37 PM

Quote :

"As mentioned before, one of the biggest problems is storing the energy once you make it. If you can sell it back to the grid during the day (which are peak hours for energy consumption on the grid) and pull energy off at night, then it does become a fairly viable option. If you have to store it in batteries, then its not so great. "

you're not going to get reimbursed at peak rates unless you get a time-of-use meter installed. If you do that, you should go ahead and get timer controlled thermostats at the same time. Progress Energy is the only utility in NC that I know even offers TOU metering to residential customers.

6/24/2007 9:34:56 PM

Quote :

"The payoff is long, about 8 years last I checked"

Don't believe anyone who ever claims you will get your investment back. There is only one reason you should ever consider installing solar panels, and that is because you think you are helping the environment by installing green power. You will never come close to getting a return on your investment, and the only places in NC that would even consider this type of installation to increase property value is in Hillsborough and Carrboro.

6/24/2007 9:40:37 PM

Quote :

"right now, the hot ticket in efficient water heating is going to be your on demand type systems. these range from tankless, to tanked, to miniature boilers."

What do these run price wise?

6/24/2007 11:34:04 PM

it's a wide range... anywhere from 2k-20k or even more for big commercial systems (roughly speaking). it all depends on your needs and intented use. if you've got a specific application in mind, i can give you a better ballpark figure...

6/24/2007 11:42:49 PM

My house. I live by myself now and last months gas bill was $25 dollars so it probally wouldnt make much sense to have one installed at this time. Its a great concept though and I would deff look into it when my current water heater fails.

6/25/2007 12:49:40 AM

eleusis is pretty much on the money. which is why it's worth waiting for the next wave of solar tech.

6/25/2007 12:55:31 AM

even the new panels won't do much for increasing output, because the real bottleneck on fixed panel applications is their angle relative to the sun. Parabolic designs or flat panel tracking systems work much more efficiently than roof mounted fixed panels, and the control systems for them are getting a lot cheaper.

6/25/2007 9:57:43 AM

Quote :

"alot of people that do solar setups will use an electric heater as a holding tank. that way they can switch over to it should the need arise."

my relatives use one in florida. it works great. they've rarely had to use their hot water heater. i'm all for it.

6/25/2007 10:54:09 AM

the key word in that post (^) is florida

much more advantageous latitude

6/25/2007 11:54:10 AM

thanks for that tidbit of knowledge there bub. next time i need a 'master of the obvious', i'll give you a ring.

6/25/2007 11:57:02 AM

all of the supermax prisons they are building out in the deserts now use solar parabolic hot water heaters. I'd love to see someone come up with a combination parabolic solar water heater and a array of peltier devices to produce hot water and potentially enough electricity to run a well pump for creating water pressure.

I'm becoming a bigger fan of designs that conserve energy off of the grid instead of distributed generation technology.

6/25/2007 1:18:29 PM

Quote :

"~1.3 kW/m^2 @ ~100% eff."

At the top of the atmosphere maybe. The solar energy at the surface in raleigh is almost never above 500 W/m^2. Jordan hall has a couple years of observations documenting solar energy at the surface.

6/25/2007 1:31:58 PM

Quote :

"even the new panels won't do much for increasing output, because the real bottleneck on fixed panel applications is their angle relative to the sun. Parabolic designs or flat panel tracking systems work much more efficiently than roof mounted fixed panels, and the control systems for them are getting a lot cheaper."

That's not why it's worth the wait. The cost of the panels dropping to 1/10th to 1/20th the installed cost, as well as the flexibility of installation areas are why the become worth the purchase. The ROI should fall under 5 years for most residential applications.

The whole nano-solar industry is about basically making solar panel coatings that can integrate onto otherwise unused surfaces, versus having some space station looking rig on your roof or in your back yard.

6/25/2007 3:52:25 PM

Quote :

"My house. I live by myself now and last months gas bill was $25 dollars so it probally wouldnt make much sense to have one installed at this time. Its a great concept though and I would deff look into it when my current water heater fails."

from what i recall of the size of your house, a suitable tankless unit would probably run you ~$1200-1500 plus any neccessary materials to hook it up and labor. compare that to ~400-500 for a conventional 40-50 gallon gas heater. while a smaller/cheaper unit might be fine for your needs as a single resident, you would want to invest in a unit capable of supplying the maximum output of all the fixtures.

you might be surprised on what you could save on even that $25 bill. we installed one for a guy that had a similar gas bill each month, and he's now saving $10-15 a month. that's still going to take a while to pay for itself, but you also have to consider:

-you're only paying for the difference of a tankless on demand vs. conventional, not the whole purchase price.

-never ending hot water

-no recovery time if the power/gas goes out, you go on vacation, etc.

-resale value

-the potential for even greater savings should you ever have a roomate/family

6/25/2007 4:52:53 PM

Quote :

"The ROI should fall under 5 years for most residential applications. "

the panels aren't the expensive part of an installation, so you still won't ever see a return on your investment for distributed generation installations. All the DC to AC conversion equipment, islanding and anti-islanding equipment, harmonic distortion filters, communication equipment, and labor hours by a certified electrician are what make the installation astronomical in cost. new panels will do little to reduce that cost, but they will make the use of solar panels for off-the-grid installations much more practical.

then again, kWh rates are going to triple in the next 10 years if the FERC plans for renewable energy percentages actually get turned into law. If that happens, the tax credits and actual cost of energy produced might make a return possible after about 20 years. I don't see FERC being able to enforce their stipulations without shelling out billions of dollars to the utility industry for infrastructure repair.

[Edited on June 25, 2007 at 5:50 PM. Reason : and you thought people bitched about their power bill being too high now. just wait.]

6/25/2007 5:42:16 PM

bump?

9/3/2013 11:50:59 PM

I have an appointment with a contractor tomorrow morning. I've talked to my neighbor who has them and a few contractors who install them, and it sounds like this is now finally an extremely viable option IF your power company subsidizes them along with the IRS credit.

(Gulf Power gives $2/watt, up to $10,000...so everywhere down here does a 5kW system to max it out but not go beyond what's subsidized.)

9/4/2013 12:07:13 AM

do you get to keep the RECs?

9/4/2013 8:54:49 AM

I'm not 100% sure what you're asking, but if you're asking if I get to claim the federal 30% credit as well as the Gulf Power incentive ($10,000 for a 5 kW system), then yes. Net out of pocket will probably be $4500-5500, I think (probably more towards the upper end of that range).

[Edited on September 4, 2013 at 11:40 AM. Reason : ]

9/4/2013 11:38:08 AM

And how long before you break even on that?

For local people, just looked this up...

Quote :

"f accepted into the program, you will receive an upfront rebate payment plus an ongoing monthly bill credit. To qualify, the proposed PV system must be rooftop-mounted and range in size from 2 kW AC to 10 kW AC. Systems must be installed by a licensed contractor, meet electric and safety standards and be capable of producing a minimum of 1,200 kWh/per kW AC annually. Participating customers must participate on Duke Energy Progress TOU-D rate, Net-Meter Rider and Solar Rider for a minimum five-year period with an option to extend each year thereafter. Participants will receive a one-time upfront rebate of $500 per kW AC and a monthly bill credit based on the same system AC rating at $4.50 per kW. "

[Edited on September 4, 2013 at 5:52 PM. Reason : .]

9/4/2013 5:47:15 PM

ignoring value added to the house and just talking about electricity saved versus net cost to me, I put the break-even point at about 4-5 years (probably closer to 5).

9/4/2013 8:17:27 PM

Nvm

[Edited on September 4, 2013 at 8:33 PM. Reason : .]

9/4/2013 8:32:43 PM

OK...just got the quote:

5 kW roof-mounted system using 20x Mage panels and 20x Enphase M215 inverters.

$5246 after Gulf Power rebate and 30% IRS credit. Should offset about $1200/year in electricity cost.

9/9/2013 4:39:05 PM

don't be shocked when you're not getting much out of them this winter; they generate a lot better in the summer.

9/9/2013 5:26:54 PM

That's not that bad (idunno, maybe he's getting gouged), but it seems like a reasonable expense to me.

9/9/2013 6:26:39 PM

Enjoy your batteries that have to be hot to function (that's all Pv really is)

9/9/2013 6:39:58 PM

Quote :

"do you get to keep the RECs?"

it depends, but you can if you want to. If you have less than a 5kw system you can sell your recs to NC Greenpower, but they are next to worthless nowadays. Something like 8 cents/kW last time I checked

In NC not only can you get a 30% Federal Tax Credit you also qualify for the state 35% tax credit as well, but for residential I believe the max limit is $10,000 and it can not exceed 50% of your state tax equity.

a $10k incentive from gulf power sounds nice. Prob will cover half a standard 5kW roof system. After federal incentives assuming you can use all of the credits, you prob will have it 2/3 paid for in year 1. Makes the total payout pretty reasonable for a long term investment, and now that solar companies are lengthening their guarantees (MAGE solar I think has a 25yr performance guarantee on their panels) it's a good investment.


Best of luck to you! I hope it works out well. Also I recommend getting the online real time mobile app so you can see your performance every day from your phone. It's fun!


also PV are not batteries.

9/10/2013 1:03:13 PM

Can you get the state credit for wind too ?

9/10/2013 1:25:12 PM

I had to get a new roof this last spring. I briefly looked into seeing if i could incorporate solar shingles, but the technology didn't appear to be "there" yet for my price point. I'd love to incorporate solar... Duke, is this for your house in Florida? I wonder what the difference in efficiency on a system like yours would be due to the difference in latitude between Fl and NC... any ideas?

my house has a large portion of unobstructed south facing real estate just begging for solar, but we don't anticipate being here for longer than 5-10 years... it's iffy if it would pay for its self by then... how much would a system like this help resell value?

9/10/2013 3:55:00 PM

Quote :

"Can you get the state credit for wind too ?"

Yes, as, the statute reads

A maximum [state tax credit] of $10,500 per installation for photovoltaic systems (also known as PV systems or solar-electric systems), wind-energy systems, combined heat and power systems, or certain other renewable-energy systems used for a non-business purpose


for business purposes the cap is 2.5 million.


you have until 12/31/2015 to be eligible for this system, and I believe (not 100% sure but I can double check if you want) that this is only to begin installation. You have another so many days (90 or so) to actually get it connected to the grid

[Edited on September 10, 2013 at 3:59 PM. Reason : ...]

9/10/2013 3:58:30 PM

Quote :

"I had to get a new roof this last spring. I briefly looked into seeing if i could incorporate solar shingles, but the technology didn't appear to be "there" yet for my price point. I'd love to incorporate solar... Duke, is this for your house in Florida? I wonder what the difference in efficiency on a system like yours would be due to the difference in latitude between Fl and NC... any ideas? my house has a large portion of unobstructed south facing real estate just begging for solar, but we don't anticipate being here for longer than 5-10 years... it's iffy if it would pay for its self by then... how much would a system like this help resell value?"

Solar really is a long term investment. When Progress was still around and offering sunshot incentives and paying out .18/kw you could get away w/less than 10 years. But there's just not as much incentive there and unless you can fully utilize the tax credits I wouldn't recommend unless this is your planned home for the long term, like 10-20 years.


I'm not sure about the resale value. I do know you can have the panels added onto your Homeowners insurance after a value readjustment which may increase your premiums, and your tax-assessed value will increase (although in NC there is an 80% property tax abatement incentive so it won't increase by much). Not sure if it will increase the value of the home enough to sell itself. That's a good question though

9/10/2013 4:03:59 PM

i would assume the actual value added (like anything else) would depend on the type of person looking to buy... green is trendy

9/10/2013 4:05:30 PM

Depends on where they are. These douche bags down the road put PV on the front of their house... Its the south facing roof, but it looks like shit. Those won't sell to the marginally interested crowd, only the I drive a Prius suck my dick crowd.

On the back of the house, I really don't know why anyone wouldn't want them if its already there. It might be easier to sell a price increase in home value, in the form of advertising reduced energy demand. But people will want real numbers, too.

9/10/2013 6:44:23 PM