http://tinyurl.com/35lbw2

I'll be the first in this thread to say that this article is unnecessarily detailed and sappy, but it does get the point across. Here's the key paragraph

Quote :

"And then she spoke words no pregnant woman wants to hear. Instead of "healthy" and "strong," our baby was discussed in clinical terms like "hydrocephalus" and "spina bifida." Like a defective zipper, the spine hadn't closed all the way, and a gaping hole was located near the brain -- the worst possible spot. What the doctors knew -- that the baby would be paralyzed and incontinent, its brain smushed against the base of the skull and the cranium filled with fluid -- was awful. What they didn't know -- whether it would live, and if so, the degree of mental and developmental defects -- was devastating. If the baby did live, countless surgeries would be required, and none of them would repair the damage that was already done. "

After that, she decided to get an abortion. I should also mention:

Quote :

" asked over and over, Are we doing the right thing? Our family -- even my Catholic father and Republican father-in-law, neither of whom were ever pro-choice -- assured us that we were. Politics suddenly became personal -- their daughter's heartbreak, their son's pain, their grandchild's suffering -- and that changed everything. "

6/25/2007 5:07:31 PM

? While there are some people who don't believe in abortion in any case, most people who are "pro-life" probably wouldn't object to this.

6/25/2007 5:17:21 PM

i'm pro-choice, but articles like these don't help to support my views. it's just one story out of thousands. there are good stories and bad stories on both sides. the stories aren't important. the emotion isn't important. what is important is letting every single woman exercise HER right to control over HER body. if it's illegal to rape a woman against her will, then it should be illegal to make a woman give birth against her will

6/25/2007 5:19:22 PM

well since they were Catholic I would hope they would at least pray for healing and a miracle before just giving up. Secondly, doctors are sometimes wrong. Third, if I understand the disease correctly the baby is essentially dead already so most of us prolife folks wouldn't really have a problem with it. Just like we have no moral objection to abortion when the life of the mother is in serious jeopardy. So if the suggestion you would like to make is that abortion be illegal except in cases of horrific diseases of the baby or endangerment of the mother's life then fine, tell you what I'll even throw in rape and incest to boot for the sake of political expedience.

Guess what, that would make 95% + of the abortions in this country illegal, you know why? Because most abortions have nothing to do with such hypotheticals. Most abortions occur because people choose to have them for reasons of convenience.

6/25/2007 6:34:20 PM

With the invention of the modern computer, situations like this can be tough. If my wife and I found out that our child was in a similar situation, it would be devastating. I wouldn't argue against anyone if they decided to abort the child in a situation like this.

But, what are the statistics of these types of situations? Common? Nope, more uncommon.

Quote :

"if it's illegal to rape a woman against her will, then it should be illegal to make a woman give birth against her will "

Moot point... For example, "If it's illegal to kill a man against his will, then it should be illegal to make a man live against his will." Look where Kevorkian ended up.

So where do you draw the line? You draw it very carefully and teach people to keep as far away as they can from that line.

6/25/2007 7:08:57 PM

that is one shitty analogy

6/25/2007 7:17:06 PM

Hey, Cherokee made the first shitty one, I'm just following up.

6/25/2007 7:29:38 PM

Quote :

"well since they were Catholic I would hope they would at least pray for healing and a miracle before just giving up."

What are you? a Christian Scientist?

6/25/2007 7:32:24 PM

I agree that even "pro-life" advocates can at least sympathize with these situations, if not agree that the option to terminate the pregnancy should exist for such cases.

But I do want to point out that doctors can be and have been wrong.

I was one of those pregnancies that doctors recommend be terminated due to a neurological defect.

My parents chose not to terminate and even though I was not born a perfect child, I have only been moderately affected by my condition. I am not deaf, mute, mentally incompetent, in constant pain, or severely physically handicapped as the doctors predicted. I did have several corrective surgeries and I may never quite look or move like everyone else, but I lead a very normal happy life. I graduated from college, married, got a job, and I am expecting my first child.

A majority of the doctors' dire predictions never came to pass. My family is very glad that I am here and I am certainly glad to be here, and I could have very easily not been here had my parents chose to terminate.

6/25/2007 7:37:41 PM

Quote :

"Moot point... For example, "If it's illegal to kill a man against his will, then it should be illegal to make a man live against his will." Look where Kevorkian ended up."

first off, my analogy was to support my OPINION. and yes, i agree it should be illegal to make someone live against their will too. so how is my analogy bad?

Quote :

"what is important is letting every single woman exercise HER right to control over HER body"

goes for man as well

6/25/2007 8:35:34 PM

I certainly don't find any issue with this instance. You have a situation where the child will not live a healthy or normal life, to a degree that very few of us could ever imagine. Why demand that a child suffer like that? But there is a significant difference between ending a life because the life is already mostly dead, and ending a life simply because that life is "inconvenient".

6/25/2007 8:55:53 PM

hey, the woman can do whatever the hell she wants to do with her body. just leave the body of the other unborn person out of it. I love how the pro-murder people love to just assume that the woman's body is the only thing at issue here. but, that's another thread

6/25/2007 9:37:03 PM

pro-murder?

I didn't realize the baby was alive.

6/25/2007 11:18:07 PM

burro has a significant point, one i disagree completely with, but it IS a significant point

6/25/2007 11:30:24 PM

I have frequently tended to disagree with aaronburro, but in this case I must buck my trend. There is not a pro-life person out there whose agenda is, "Ah yes, we must reign in these women and control what they do to themselves." Pro-lifers have almost exclusively weighed the woman's situation against that of the fetus, which they consider to be alive (an idea which, like many others, I don't think will ever be proven or disproven).

6/26/2007 3:41:28 AM

Quote :

"there is a significant difference between ending a life because the life is already mostly dead, and ending a life simply because that life is "inconvenient"."

I'm against abortion in most cases, but in this one, it seems to be the best decision for all involved.

6/26/2007 8:57:19 AM

^^ true. I'm pro-life but I'm willing to compromise and let women have abortions until the heart starts beating. Which is anywhere between 17-25 days along depending on the source. However most women don't find out they're pregnant until they are 6-8 weeks along if not further. So it would stop about 99.999% of abortions.

But then there are some of you who say even though the heart is beating it isn't alive. I guess I just don't understand that.

6/26/2007 9:11:19 AM

Im pro-womencandowhattheywant

6/26/2007 9:43:13 AM

GrumpyGOP

Quote :

"There is not a pro-life person out there whose agenda is, "Ah yes, we must reign in these women and control what they do to themselves." "

Really? What about Gary Bauer, the leader of the so-called "Family Research Council"?

Quote :

"Q: If someone in your family was raped and became pregnant and wanted an abortion, would you support that decision? A: I would comfort her. I would pray with her. I would explain to her that she couldn’t make right the terrible thing that had happened to her by taking the life of her innocent unborn child. But most important. [is] what I would do as president. And as president I would throw rapists in jail for a long time so America’s women wouldn’t have to worry about it. Source: Republican Debate in West Columbia, SC Jan 7, 2000 "

Quote :

"I will put no justice on the court that does not understand the clear, moral idea found in the Declaration of Independence that is the basis of this country. And that idea says that we hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights. And the first right it lists is the right to life. All of my judges will believe that, all of my judges will want to welcome every child into the world, give them a place at the table. Source: Republican Debate in Durham, NH Jan 6, 2000 "

Quote :

"Bauer tells audiences that he would never appoint anyone to the Supreme Court who supported legal abortion. Bauer refuses to compromise on that issue. Source: New York Times, p. A12, col. 4 Aug 17, 1999 "

http://www.ontheissues.org/Celeb/Gary_Bauer_Abortion.htm

And if you tell me that Bauer is an exception and not the rule I will find you quotes from more prominent Christian/pro-life leaders like Bauer who support a ban on abortions with no exceptions.

[Edited on June 26, 2007 at 10:23 AM. Reason : .]

6/26/2007 10:21:46 AM

excuse me but its "pro-choice" and not "pro-murder", thank you.

6/26/2007 10:23:29 AM

Either way (abortion or carrying the baby to term), the baby is going to probably die if you believe what the doctors say. The mother still has to go through the grief of losing a child and it isn't something easy to get over. I think having an abortion in this case would cause the mother to feel a lot of guilt on top of all of that grief and have a lot of what ifs.

6/26/2007 10:42:41 AM

guilt over preventing her child from having a horrible life of suffering?

6/26/2007 10:47:10 AM

the only people's opinions that matter in these situations are the people involved...the mother and the father. the rest of our views are pointless and quite frankly, arrogant.

6/26/2007 11:24:40 AM

Quote :

"Really? What about Gary Bauer, the leader of the so-called "Family Research Council"?"

All of those quotes are pro-life, but none of them indicate that Bauer's motivation is to exercise greater control over women rather than preserve the lives of the unborn.

6/26/2007 12:09:09 PM

Quote :

"But then there are some of you who say even though the heart is beating it isn't alive. I guess I just don't understand that."

The baby is still not viable outside the woman's womb so as far as I am concerned it is just an appendage of the body

6/26/2007 2:12:20 PM

Quote :

"I'm willing to compromise and let women have abortions"

how kind of you

let me ask this question. barring personal opinions on the act of abortion itself, what in the hell do you as an individual have at stake? what are you losing or what is hurting you when a kid is aborted?

people are soooo up in arms about "saving innocent life" yet you same people fail to put the same passion into causes that would save far more people from far bigger problems.

let me guess, your religion tells you it's bad

"withdrawn your honor"

6/26/2007 2:34:58 PM

Quote :

"people are soooo up in arms about "saving innocent life" yet you same people fail to put the same passion into causes that would save far more people from far bigger problems."

Perhaps you could enlighten this ignorant pro-lifer...

What cause should I invest in that would solve bigger problems than the 45 million dead children that have been legally killed in this country?

There must be some more awesome causes out there that I'm not aware of.

6/26/2007 2:46:18 PM

The problem with a lot of pro-lifers is that their pro-life sentiments end at birth.

6/26/2007 2:50:18 PM

Here is what I say:

I was born with spina bifida (granted mine was at the base of my spine and not near my skull) and my parents were told that in the best of circumstances, I had a <1% chance to walk, I would need to go to the hospital every 2-3 years for fluid to be drained from my skull, and would most likely be mentally "slow".

Now that I'm 23, and have never had problems walking, had to have the fluid drained once and it never came back, and am in graduate school - I'm doing just fine. Aside from a nagging back ache that comes and goes every day and will last pretty much forever - I think my parents made a great choice.



[Edited on June 26, 2007 at 2:58 PM. Reason : edit.]

6/26/2007 2:57:01 PM

^^Inconsistency, hypocrisy, and poor character makes neither an individual, nor a movement, wrong in their message.

But it does mean they need to be called on it.

Hopefully, you're just adding an irrelevant anecdote to this discussion by doing the latter, instead of claiming the former.

[Edited on June 26, 2007 at 3:00 PM. Reason : d]

6/26/2007 2:59:30 PM

^ It shows though that their basis for their belief is not completely consistent. Which is either due to them being dumbasses, or having ulterior motives.

6/26/2007 3:10:16 PM

how come many of the pro-choice people seem to think most babies will have horrible lives if the mothers dont abort them?

also how can you not feel some slight guilt if you abort a completely healthy fetus

6/26/2007 3:11:35 PM

Are you implying that women who have had abortions don't feel guilt? Do you seriously believe that?

6/26/2007 3:12:45 PM

no, i'm asking how men or women or twwers who happen to be pro-choice seem to guiltlessly advocate abortion...maybe thats just how they come across to me though

6/26/2007 3:15:30 PM

Quote :

"Perhaps you could enlighten this ignorant pro-lifer... What cause should I invest in that would solve bigger problems than the 45 million dead children that have been legally killed in this country?"

really? cuz the cdc lists close to 3,000,000 deaths a year. and that's total, not 45 million and those just being children

-gang violence
-gang deaths
-DUI related deaths
-drug related deaths
-smoke related deaths
-alcohol related deaths

[Edited on June 26, 2007 at 3:23 PM. Reason : asdf]

6/26/2007 3:19:39 PM

^^ I don't think anyone's claiming that abortion is some kind of flippant, easy process in which women don't give a shit. I guarantee it'd do a number on my emotions if I ever had to make such a choice.

But there are situations where it's better than the alternative (rape and the endangerment of the mother's life, certainly you pro-lifers are more reasonable about those two): sometimes children cannot be cared for properly due to poverty or an otherwise unstable environment. That doesn't mean it's always the case, and it's the woman's decision and conscience if otherwise. There are more cases of extenuating circumstances that may be in need of abortions than you figure, and eliminating the woman's choice altogether would be an absolute travesty.

6/26/2007 3:29:57 PM

are you familiar with the saying "its better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all" or something very similar?

isnt it better to have lived an impoverishd life than to never have lived

6/26/2007 3:31:08 PM

Quote :

"pro-choice seem to guiltlessly advocate abortion"

we advocate a person's right to CHOOSE. and guiltlessly? why should we feel guilt? the guilt (or confidence in making the right decision) belongs to them

6/26/2007 3:36:12 PM

^^ I don't know, I think being a starving or constantly-abused child might be worse than never having lived.

But again, most of this argument is when you define the embryo/fetus as "alive."

^ Well said.

6/26/2007 3:36:55 PM

but that goes back to what i just said...why do some pro-choice people seem to think all aborted babies, if not aborted, will live bad lives where they're starved and contantly abused?

BelowMe already said more than I could

6/26/2007 3:42:10 PM

We don't, and I'm sure that's not always the case. But that's one case in which, yeah, I'd imagine a woman would definitely think about aborting a kid if she didn't think she could possibly afford to feed him or protect him. It's cruel to give birth to a kid in a povertous squalor just to see if he can survive.

[Edited on June 26, 2007 at 3:48 PM. Reason : .]

6/26/2007 3:47:47 PM

and some would say its cruel to take away his/her opportunity for life before he/she even gets started

6/26/2007 3:49:41 PM

Well it sure must be nice to be a guy and never have to make a decision like that.

Just because you think that way doesn't mean you have to legislate it for every woman.

[Edited on June 26, 2007 at 3:54 PM. Reason : I'm glad it's a woman's choice, and I hope it stays that way.]

6/26/2007 3:52:30 PM

i could say it sure must be nice to be a girl and be able to have that choice, since the guy (whose sperm is necessary to create the baby btw) has no choice, except to pay for it

6/26/2007 3:55:32 PM

sure you could

and it's true

but you also wouldn't have to carry it around for nine months, or ever spend any time with it if you didn't feel like it

6/26/2007 3:59:38 PM

i support a woman's right to choose

i just think in one sense, if you dont plan on having a kid, DONT GET PREGNANT

obviously rape, etc are different scenarios, but dont just use abortion as a form of birth control because of your own irresponsibility

not directing that at you personally, just saying

6/26/2007 4:01:46 PM

they must feel really guilty about removing that burden

i would imagine that is worse than the actual abortion

6/26/2007 4:10:03 PM

^^oh I completely agree

stressing contraception is much more important than any quibbling about abortion

but ultimately, it's up to what the woman thinks about her own situation

[Edited on June 26, 2007 at 4:11 PM. Reason : .]

6/26/2007 4:11:25 PM

Quote :

"The baby is still not viable outside the woman's womb so as far as I am concerned it is just an appendage of the body"

Only due to the limits of current medical technology. So by your statement, a baby that was born premature today, but is able to live due to technology, is a person. But if that same baby was born 20-30 yrs ago it would not have survived and therefore not a person. What about a baby who is born too premature for today's technology dies, yet would have survived if it was born 20-30 years from now? You can't change when a "fetus" becomes a person due to changes in technology.

Quote :

"let me ask this question. barring personal opinions on the act of abortion itself, what in the hell do you as an individual have at stake? what are you losing or what is hurting you when a kid is aborted?"

That, to me, is like asking "what am I losing if I stand by and watch your mom or dad be murdered?" If I had the chance to save someone, you better damn well believe I'm going to try. I'm sorry you don't feel that way.

Quote :

"people are soooo up in arms about "saving innocent life" yet you same people fail to put the same passion into causes that would save far more people from far bigger problems."

It's hard to imagine there are bigger problems than saving someone's life.

6/27/2007 3:22:45 AM

This is off the original topic....

Just curious, do any of the pro-choice people here think that in the case of the woman from Ohio who was kidnapped and murdered, last seen June 19th with a due date of July 9 (I think the dates are right, anyway it was around 2-3 weeks before her due date), that the murderer should be charged for two murders?

A child is certainly viable 2-3 weeks before the due date. None of the arguments of it doesn't have a heart beat, etc apply. Or does that "fetus" dying not bother you at all, no different than if the mother hadn't been pregnant. When do you consider it a human life.... the moment it is outside the mother, no sooner? Since premature babies can't survive without machines are they still not human?

Because normally I hear the, it's not a human because it can't survive outside the mother argument, but then in the cases where they are 8-9 months pregnant that doesn't seem to matter anymore, its still not a human life and the mother should be allowed to kill it.

6/28/2007 4:27:54 PM