From: http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/18/1834.asp

North Carolina Supreme Court Eliminates Profit for Red Light Cameras

The North Carolina Supreme Court let stand a ruling ordering 90 percent of revenue from red light camera programs be given to public schools.
The North Carolina Supreme Court delivered a fatal blow to red light cameras on Thursday. The court denied a motion from the city of High Point to reconsider a state appeals court decision ordering revenue from red light camera systems be paid into the public school system (read opinion). The supreme court also granted the Guilford Board of Education's motion to dismiss the case.

That means the law of the land in North Carolina is that ninety percent of the fine revenue collected by automated enforcement systems must be handed over to the school system for use in educational programs. Instead of making money as hoped, the cities using cameras would lose at least $30 for every $50 citation issued. Several cities dropped their ticketing programs as financial prospects began to look bleak. So far, Charlotte, Fayetteville, Greensboro, Greenville and High Point have shut down ticketing operations.

High Point must now pay Guilford County Schools $1,453,703 while Charlotte owes about $4.6 million to Charlotte-Mecklenburg Schools. The North Carolina move follows the Minnesota Supreme Court ruling that struck down red light cameras as a violation of state law (read opinion) and the California Supreme Court's decision not to review a appellate ruling that found a city operated its red light camera program in violation of state law. Automated enforcement cases are currently pending in the supreme courts of Iowa and Ohio.

Article Excerpt:

SUPREME COURT OF NORTH CAROLINA
PETITIONS
Decided by the Court in Conference: 27 June 2007
Posted on the Internet Web Site: 28 June 2007 at 11:22 a.m.

#336P06
Henry H. Shavitz v. City of High Point, et al.
1. Defendant's (High Point) NOA Based Upon a Constitutional Question (COA05-571) - - -

2. Defendant's (High Point) PDR Under N.C.G.S. 7A-31. DENIED

3. Defendant's (Guilford Bd. of Ed.) Motion to Dismiss Appeal. ALLOWED

7/3/2007 8:00:31 AM

these things are bullshit. whats next? monitors that report your speed at all times you are driving, then mandatory gps tracker implants to pinpoint your exact location

7/3/2007 8:09:03 AM

Don't they have this sorta thing in England where it checks your speed and if you're speeding, takes your picture and gives you a ticket?

7/3/2007 8:37:32 AM

^i know they have them in germany.

7/3/2007 8:38:30 AM

They have for speed and redlights in Brazil. People just memorize where they are and don't speed there.

7/3/2007 8:47:50 AM

^^^Try DC.

Virginia also had the speed cameras but turned them off when the courts ruled them unconstitutional.

7/3/2007 8:55:14 AM

Yeah there are some in the US... Mythbusters tried to beat them

7/3/2007 9:04:08 AM

why are they unconstitutional? Is it because you are being fined without trial?

7/3/2007 9:06:50 AM

Quote :

"these things are bullshit."

Don't run the red light? God forbid the Government actually punish you for breaking the law.

7/3/2007 9:22:42 AM

what defines it is my problem. Is it if you run it and it turns red while you are under it? Is it only if you cross a certain line and the light is already red? How long does the light have to be red for it to work? I know ive been close and thought i might get one but i haven't.

plus, i have slammed on brakes many times when normally i would have tried to make it - if you have to slam on brakes at a light, then you probably should be legal to go through, IMO

7/3/2007 9:26:32 AM

^^I think thats missing the point. I got a ticket one day for running a red light when it was raining like hell. The light changed on me unexpectedly and instead of slamming on the brakes and skidding out of control into a ditch, I decided at the last second to run the light. A camera can't determine that.



[Edited on July 3, 2007 at 9:29 AM. Reason : .]

7/3/2007 9:27:00 AM

If you have to slam on your breaks at the light you weren't paying attention, there's a reason why the light just doesn't go green to red. Yellow doesn't mean "Speed the fuck up, you might be able to make this one"

[Edited on July 3, 2007 at 9:28 AM. Reason : a]

7/3/2007 9:27:50 AM

I also believe that the contracting of government functions to private, for profit entities is illegal and unconstitutional.

7/3/2007 10:00:37 AM

meh, it depends on how the cameras are set up, if it's to catch people who are psycho and knowingly run red lights then yeah, im for it, but if it catches otherwise law abiding people who are unfortunate enough to be on the borderline of yellow/red, then fuck that revenue generating big brother faggot ass bullshit

7/3/2007 10:01:02 AM

i hate red light cameras

but, i have to admit, for me they are a deterrent

which, i think, mean they work

7/3/2007 10:11:57 AM

Quote :

"I also believe that the contracting of government functions to private, for profit entities is illegal and unconstitutional."

I believe that there are other places the money could go besides schools, to the DOT for example.

Quote :

"then fuck that revenue generating big brother faggot ass bullshit"

Don't get me wrong, I have ran red lights a couple times by accident and I always go over at least 5 over the speed limit. When I got pulled for speeding a couple times, I didn't bitch about how unfair it was. Same should go with the cameras, if you can make the yellow light, go for it. If you try and don't make it, take the consequences of a 50 dollar ticket.

Quote :

"but, i have to admit, for me they are a deterrent which, i think, mean they work"

exactly

[Edited on July 3, 2007 at 10:13 AM. Reason : a]

7/3/2007 10:12:57 AM

Hah, i never thought that would go anywhere.

Quote :

"Henry H. Shavitz"

I ate lunch with him every day for a couple of years, and I thought he was nuts for challenging the cameras, that he would never win.

His case has been going on for a long time.

7/3/2007 10:18:06 AM

Quote :

"Instead of making money as hoped, the cities using cameras would lose at least $30 for every $50 citation issued."

7/3/2007 10:19:06 AM

Quote :

"Several cities dropped their ticketing programs as financial prospects began to look bleak."

[sarcasm]But I thought it was all about safety.[/sarcasm]

7/3/2007 10:19:21 AM

The issues I have with red light cameras are as follows:

1) If the enforcement/ticketwriting is contracted to a private agency, rather than sworn officers I have an issue with that.

2) Most red light programs use still images, making it impossible to determine what other factors were involved in the running of a red light that a cop could theoretically consider if there in person. A video loop with sound can at least capture most of this.

3) Numerous studies of red light programs have found that the number of accidents significantly increased where cameras were installed. While the most dangerous "t-bone" collisions were reduced, rear-end collisons often increase substantially.


I don't buy into the privacy arguments that some make. Carefully tailored programs can at least alleviate most of the problems associated with 1 and 2, and 3 often declines over time.

7/3/2007 10:34:36 AM

Quote :

"Don't run the red light? God forbid the Government actually punish you for breaking the law. "

You should be kicked in the face. Get off Bush's dick.

7/3/2007 11:15:00 AM

if a cop catches me and decides to give me a ticket, fine. but i dont want to be subject to some fucking camera bullshit, which cant make judgments based on other factors that may be present like weather, other drivers, maybe someone else was driving my car, all that crap. why would anyone be for this? when you let the government walk all over you with shit like this, it opens the door for even more automated crap. hell, they already have speed checkers on the interstate for 'traffic data gathering purposes', how long until they bust everybody that goes 71 on the interstate with it?

7/3/2007 12:12:52 PM

^^^ I agree with #1. I think that reason alone is enough to bring down the system.

It's also the reason privacy arguments come into play. When you farm out the images/video, what's to stop the private agency from using the data for other means?

The video versus images argument is worthwhile, but it still doesn't negate the main problem. You have unqualified people doing the analysis.

And 3 won't decline over time. People are not robots.

7/3/2007 12:18:23 PM

my problem is not all yellow lights last the same amount of times. quick yellows always get me. the one on hillborough is yellow for like 2 seconds. so you have a green light then it turns yellow as you're approaching so you're like "ok i'm fine" then BAM its red.

7/3/2007 12:37:03 PM

Quote :

"If you have to slam on your breaks at the light you weren't paying attention, there's a reason why the light just doesn't go green to red."

Bullshit. Different vehicles react different ways to braking under different weather conditions. I also know of some damn short yellow lights that I've had to stand on my brakes for while traveling the speed limit during dry conditions, much less rainy ones.

Other than that, markgoal pretty much got it.

7/3/2007 12:37:39 PM

Quote :

"on't run the red light? God forbid the Government actually punish you for breaking the law."

the NC general statutes has provisions that allow you to run a red light, such as when a traffic signal light fails to change. This is actually a common occurrance when either inductance loop indicators or video monitors don't operate correctly. light vehicles like motorcycles won't set off some inductance loop sensors, and even the slightest amount of snow or ice on a salted road will completely fuck up the sensors and make the light not trip. Sometimes the sensors just defect like any machine will over time. A redlight camera won't be able to detect that, but you'll get the ticket just the same.

A redlight camera also can't tell who is driving the car. If you run a red light and get pulled by an officer, the driver gets the ticket. Red light cameras send the ticket to the owner of the vehicle, even though the law is clearly not written that way.

[Edited on July 3, 2007 at 12:40 PM. Reason : clarification]

7/3/2007 12:39:31 PM

The thing that gets me is that you can't fight the tickets, unless you pay them upfront (with a bond).

That has to be the most retarded thing ever.

7/3/2007 12:45:32 PM

The biggest misconception is that red light cameras reduce collisions, while at best you are substituting one type of collision for another.

7/3/2007 12:51:53 PM

Quote :

"these things are bullshit. whats next? monitors that report your speed at all times you are driving"

http://www.ippr.org/articles/index.asp?id=1884

http://www.rfidnews.org/news/2004/06/10/rfidenabled-license-plates-to-identify-uk-vehicles/



[Edited on July 3, 2007 at 4:07 PM. Reason : .guess who's next in line >.<]

7/3/2007 4:01:07 PM

^^^ guilty until proven innocent

7/3/2007 4:04:58 PM

Why are you guys angry

The NC SC pretty much owned the program.

7/3/2007 4:08:42 PM

If you have ever gotten one of these tickets, then you know that they also cock your speed. So, they already have the technology, and I guess you could technically get a speeding ticket while running a red light. That being said, this shit sucks for speeders like myself. Good NC court decision for speeders.

7/3/2007 4:33:01 PM

Quote :

"I also believe that the contracting of government functions to private, for profit entities is illegal and unconstitutional."

Federal Reserve?

Quote :

"then BAM its red."

It's a question of intent. If you want more safety at stop lights, increasing the yellow time will help do that. If your goal is to get as much money into gov't pockets, then shorten the yellows, and click away. You may want to increase the city speed limits a little too. After all, the money is for the children, right?

7/3/2007 4:35:31 PM

Quote :

"i hate red light cameras but, i have to admit, for me they are a deterrent which, i think, mean they work "

7/3/2007 4:38:27 PM

my wife got one in cary a few months ago.
They sent 2 or 3 images with the ticket - one of the car in the intersection and the red light, and one of a closeup of the license plate, and they provided a login for their website. The site had an embedded flash video of the infraction. It clearly showed the entire intersection, including all 4 incoming roads and the traffic lights in question. The video started a couple seconds before the light turned yellow, showed the whole yellow cycle, showed it turning red, showed her clearly crossing the white line after it turned red, and showed the car go all the way through the intersection. So.... given that, I really had no basis or reason to argue. They also gave the option to get mailed more pictures, like closeups of the drivers face (in case you weren't driving). I think they don't do that by default for privacy reasons.

it was also clear that the ticket was not treated as a criminal or traffic ticket - it's basically equivalent to a parking ticket, and there's no way it will wind up on your insurance or driving record - no points, no insurance increases or anything. I found it best just to take it on the chin, admit the (dangerous) error, and pay the damned $50 and forget about it.

[Edited on July 3, 2007 at 4:43 PM. Reason : .]

7/3/2007 4:42:25 PM

Quote :

"Several cities dropped their ticketing programs"

Is anyone else reading this?

7/3/2007 4:56:15 PM

proving, once again, traffic enforcement is about revenue not safety

7/3/2007 5:00:12 PM

Quote :

"on't they have this sorta thing in England where it checks your speed and if you're speeding, takes your picture and gives you a ticket?"

they have (or had?) those in Charlotte too.. got my buddy a nice speeding ticket one day

[Edited on July 3, 2007 at 5:49 PM. Reason : ^ exactly]

7/3/2007 5:48:52 PM

if you can't stop in time because of weather conditions then you are driving to fast (given those same weather conditions)

7/3/2007 6:09:26 PM

Quote :

"3) Numerous studies of red light programs have found that the number of accidents significantly increased where cameras were installed. While the most dangerous "t-bone" collisions were reduced, rear-end collisons often increase substantially. "

Link?

Quote :

"You should be kicked in the face. Get off Bush's dick."

Funny how defensive some of you get with this issue.

7/3/2007 6:21:44 PM

Quote :

"proving, once again, traffic enforcement is about revenue not safety"

That is a gross generalization. It proves that many cities thought they would increase revenue by jumping on the red-light camera fad, that's it.

7/3/2007 6:25:34 PM

Tell you what, government. You kick these fucking illegals out and I'll gladly let you ticket me all the live long day for speeding.

7/3/2007 7:30:23 PM

racist chicks make me hot

7/3/2007 9:22:08 PM

There's nothing racist about that.

7/3/2007 10:00:04 PM

h

o

t

7/3/2007 11:39:38 PM

Muther fuckin DC traffic camera's got me a "no insurance points" $50 ticket...

pure revenue

7/3/2007 11:53:41 PM

Quote :

"if you can't stop in time because of weather conditions then you are driving to fast (given those same weather conditions)"

What if you can't stop because someone is following you too closely, and stopping at a yellow would cause him to rear end you? The point is: human judgment versus machine judgment.

And you can't help but notice that the RLC in Raleigh have very skimpy yellow phases. As it is I barely trust gov't but I trust companies that get paid per ticket even less. I mean, whatever happened to a team of cops picking an intersection and enforcing it all day?

7/4/2007 12:29:40 AM

^ In Baltimore, a yellow light has to be a min. of like 2.5 or 3 seconds, but of course few of them are. So when the red light cameras went up, people were able to challenge their tickets by showing that the yellow at the intersection was too short, they throw out a bunch of tickets and change the light timing. Now at least whoever sets the light timings is aware of the code and the length of yellows is more consistent.

I nearly got rear-ended twice the first week I moved back down here though.

7/4/2007 9:15:06 AM

Quote :

"I mean, whatever happened to a team of cops picking an intersection and enforcing it all day?"

if you actually had a cop doing this, you would be bitching about "why isn't that cop where the actual crime is? instead of writing petty tickets"

7/4/2007 9:26:31 AM

With the lights downtown on capital you have to watch the cross walking signal. When the hand starts saying don't walk, slow down. The yellow does not allow enough time to stop.

7/4/2007 9:43:23 AM