I don't understand.

I'm currently taking software engineering along with Database (all 400 lvl classes) and even before in my 200-100 lvl classes I have never used a bit of calculus. none at all.

8/24/2007 8:41:28 AM

pretty sure there is some clause in the college doctrine saying that their goal is to produce secular, well rounded students. If anything, the reasoning for any major requiring calculus is to rework your mindset so you can think and operate in the more difficult courses.

Though that could all just be bs and they just make us take it to make college hard!

8/24/2007 9:10:13 AM

yea, i thought anyone in a science major had to take some form of calc

8/24/2007 11:37:07 AM

i passed the first calc

now im in 162

8/24/2007 11:58:46 AM

wtf is 162

i thought calcII was 241

8/24/2007 12:56:22 PM

second of all, its not like calc is hard. also, there are tonssss of classes in everyone's major that they will never use in their career, so it's not just you.

8/24/2007 1:20:41 PM

Math is good to know, and for people who continue on in grad school may need it.

I have never taken a computer science class (I'm a math major), but from I understand comp sci uses a lot of math. Secondly, you could always develop a program that uses calculus or solves it. I dunno, just a thought

8/24/2007 1:55:50 PM

it's the college of engineering...CSC is a part of that. (which I don't really understand either). But every student in CoEngr has to take at least MA 141, 241, and 242.

8/24/2007 2:55:43 PM

because csc is an engineering curriculum here at ncsu

which i can understand, because csc is engineering, you just don't build a physical product, which seems to throw some people for a loop....

8/24/2007 3:52:54 PM

I teach at a business college, and every student is required to take calculus, which is a completely pointless requirement. They NEVER ever use it in any of their courses. Heck, it is just a course that needs to be taken before graduation, so classes have a mix of freshman, sophomores, juniors and seniors. It can't be useful if you can take it as a senior.

These are kids who have trouble with Algebra and even arithmetic sometimes (fractions, percentages, etc), and we are asked to teach them calculus. A disaster.

8/24/2007 6:33:13 PM

Physics is also good to know. As well as bio and chem. But why so deep into calc?

I have written many programs and none of them have gone over basic algebra. Hell, after the basic csc classes with programming, its pretty much all theory after that.

8/24/2007 6:38:34 PM

Because optimization is important in many CSC applications. Nevermind other applications that just use a lot of calculus such as scientific stuff, physics stuff, or signal processing.

There are plenty of applications that don't, but those aren't challenging or interesting applications.

8/24/2007 6:42:34 PM

for optimization they make us take data structures, and hell, that just simple graphs when comparing processing times. Then they make us take software engineering for scalability, etc.

Derivatives, Integrals, hyperbolic functions, haven't used it. at all.

8/24/2007 6:49:44 PM

Ha. That's not the optimization I'm talking about -- that's baby stuff they teach to undergrads. The real deal is

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimization_%28mathematics%29

AI algorithms are different types of optimization, which frequently require calculus to prove optimality or some other property. As I said, its quite easy to program and never have to do any of this, but for most of the hard, interesting stuff requires trying to find algorithms to optimize a solution to some nontrival problem.

Quote :

"Major subfields * Linear programming studies the case in which the objective function f is linear and the set A is specified using only linear equalities and inequalities. Such a set is called a polyhedron or a polytope if it is bounded. * Integer programming studies linear programs in which some or all variables are constrained to take on integer values. * Quadratic programming allows the objective function to have quadratic terms, while the set A must be specified with linear equalities and inequalities. * Nonlinear programming studies the general case in which the objective function or the constraints or both contain nonlinear parts. * Convex programming studies the case when the objective function is convex and the constraints, if any, form a convex set. This can be viewed as a particular case of nonlinear programming or as generalization of linear or convex quadratic programming. o Second order cone programming (SOCP). * Semidefinite programming (SDP) is a subfield of convex optimization where the underlying variables are semidefinite matrices. It is generalization of linear and convex quadratic programming. * Stochastic programming studies the case in which some of the constraints or parameters depend on random variables. * Robust programming is, as stochastic programming, an attempt to capture uncertainty in the data underlying the optimization problem. This is not done through the use of random variables, but instead, the problem is solved taking into account inaccuracies in the input data. * Combinatorial optimization is concerned with problems where the set of feasible solutions is discrete or can be reduced to a discrete one. * Infinite-dimensional optimization studies the case when the set of feasible solutions is a subset of an infinite-dimensional space, such as a space of functions. * Constraint satisfaction studies the case in which the objective function f is constant (this is used in artificial intelligence, particularly in automated reasoning). * Disjunctive programming used where at least one constraint must be satisfied but not all. Of particular use in scheduling. In a number of subfields, the techniques are designed primarily for optimization in dynamic contexts (that is, decision making over time): * Calculus of variations seeks to optimize an objective defined over many points in time, by considering how the objective function changes if there is a small change in the choice path. * Optimal control theory is a generalization of the calculus of variations. * Dynamic programming studies the case in which the optimization strategy is based on splitting the problem into smaller subproblems. The equation that relates these subproblems is called the Bellman equation. "

8/24/2007 7:34:37 PM

3D graphics programming requires that you know some of the stuff taught in Calculus 3.

8/24/2007 7:34:54 PM

And, the real answer to your question about why you have to take calculus is even though you may not use calculus, the act of taking it gives you practice in a different way of thinking.

People who have the proven cognitive ability AND the experience of solving many different types of problems can then use that breadth of experience to solve real world problem. Solving real world problems often requires creativity, flexibility, and modeling problems in new ways.

If you are only practiced in solving a particular type of problem in a particular way, it is unlikely that you can solve any other type of problem. That's why its called a university, not a technical college.

As I said, I don't think a job where you solve the same type of problem the same way every time is very interesting.


[Edited on August 24, 2007 at 8:01 PM. Reason : All CSC majors should also be required to take linguistics. Languages are how the industry evolves.]

8/24/2007 7:49:56 PM

If you just want to be a mediocre programmer, you don't need to know calculus. Personally, I'm majoring in math and learning computer science on my own (may minor or double major in it, not sure yet). If you can get the math, you can probably learn anything else; the reverse is much less likely to be true. See [1] and [2] for why you want to know as much math as possible if you want to be a good programmer. (You probably need discrete math more than continuous stuff like calculus, but eh; calculus is so foundational to so much stuff, you should know it anyway). It's not so necessary if you just want to be a cog in a machine, churning out crappy and boring enterprise software, but who wants to do that?

[1] http://steve.yegge.googlepages.com/math-every-day
[2] http://ravimohan.blogspot.com/2005/01/mathematics-epiphany.html

[Edited on August 24, 2007 at 8:34 PM. Reason : crippled link formats]

8/24/2007 8:32:43 PM

Like someone else mentioned, Calculus is a definite requirement for a lot of advanced computing stuff, for example video games. You forget that an undergraduate degree is not meant to specialize you for any one thing, which is why Universities want to prepare you for any advanced course of study.

Calculus is also important for a lot of management related stuff down the line.

8/24/2007 9:05:35 PM

^ Calculus is used to support some economic theories. Beyond that, I haven't seen much benefit from it for "management-related stuff"--and my BS is in business administration. Someone here, however, may know some reason why calculus would be beneficial to a manager.

I argue that a solid knowledge of algebraic functions is much more beneficial to a manager. I know these concepts can be useful.

8/24/2007 10:27:44 PM

^ true perhaps, but the way to really learn about algebra and functions is to do calculus. That's right, the point of calculus is that you guys learn to do algebra. What? I already had algebra you say. I say I've taught calculus like almost a dozen times now and from what I've seen precious few students really know how to do algebra.

But, more to the point, its really about stretching your mind to do some critical thinking, Lowjack had it right, if calculus is taught well then you will learn more than just calculus.

Anyway, calculus is easy, there are lots of places in the world where most of the highschoolers are expected to learn it. It's not that hard.

8/25/2007 12:14:30 AM

^ Well, how can I argue with mathman?

8/25/2007 12:31:45 AM

Quote :

"it's the college of engineering...CSC is a part of that. (which I don't really understand either)."

8/25/2007 2:18:38 AM

^ You do realize that if CSC is not part of an engineering curriculum, it's considered part of the MATH department at other schools. That's NOT going to get you out of calculus (in fact you'll likely have even MORE and harder math courses).

[Edited on August 25, 2007 at 3:38 AM. Reason : . because cal 1 isn't hard even if cal 3 i think is a bitch]

8/25/2007 3:37:37 AM

at carnegie-mellon it's in the school of computer science

8/25/2007 4:39:23 AM

calculus is good for some people going into investment analyst positions. stuff like fixed income securities and really complex portfolio management. but i would think most business majors never use it.

8/25/2007 10:37:18 AM

Stock market WORKS on calculus...or atleast the successful brokers use calculus.

8/25/2007 10:40:22 AM

the methodology for successful investment managers differs quite a bit between the amount of mathematics used.

and stockbrokers rely on far more on sales skills than they do calculus, if at all.

8/25/2007 12:08:06 PM

interesting, good points.

8/25/2007 12:30:33 PM

splines and matrices for hardcore graphics

8/25/2007 2:16:45 PM

calculus is much more than just math ... the concepts of "infinite approach" and the like are basic philosophical principals that are valuable to any college educated person

[Edited on August 25, 2007 at 4:57 PM. Reason : s]

8/25/2007 4:57:18 PM

As a computer science major I was much more annoyed about the art and philosophy classes I was stuck taking as part of my curriculum than I was with taking calculus, a course I might actually use sometime during my career.

Quote :

"it's the college of engineering...CSC is a part of that. (which I don't really understand either)."

Ever hear of a software engineer? Sheesh you guys are dense.

8/25/2007 6:08:09 PM

in response to the topic.

...the same reason that fortran programming is required for MAE majors.

8/25/2007 8:08:20 PM

I always find these threads entertaining.

Well-rounded education, people. More people need them.

8/25/2007 10:30:54 PM

Not only that but think if you go into a field where you are working on writing a program that involves using calculus based formulas to represent whatever the models that people want to draw are, for example something like solidworks. It would be a benefit for you to understand the background of the models and the formulas to achieve them when you are speaking to someone who uses math everyday.

8/26/2007 10:08:06 AM

Shit!
I'm being put down by the man -- he's making me learn calculus!

8/27/2007 7:25:09 PM

Quote :

"why is calculus a req for CSC majors?"

Why not?

Shit, even textile and apparel mgmt majors have to take it.

I don't see a reason why everyone in college shouldn't take it.

8/27/2007 7:39:26 PM

when I rule the earth we'll do calculus in kindergarten bringing new weight to the time-honored phrase.

8/27/2007 9:33:14 PM

Most of middle school math is a holding pattern.

8/27/2007 10:11:46 PM