http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/24/AR2007082402124.html

We all knew this entire nonsense of states moving up their primary dates was going to come to a head sooner or later. Apparently the showdown will be between the Democratic National Committee (DNC) and the Florida Democratic Party.

Quote :

"Florida lawmakers angrily assailed the Democratic National Committee and its chairman, Howard Dean, saying he is threatening to "disenfranchise" the state's voters by considering a plan to invalidate the state's presidential primary. The DNC's rules committee is to vote today whether to sanction Florida for violating party rules by moving its primary up to Jan. 29 and violating a party rule against holding a primary before Feb. 5. The action would deny Florida its delegates at the party's national convention next year and prohibit Democratic presidential candidates from campaigning in the state before the primary... Under DNC rules, which were adopted more than a year ago, Florida's decision to vote earlier than Feb. 5 will automatically trigger a loss of half of the state's delegates. But DNC officials appear likely to increase that penalty to 100 percent of the delegates, a move that could leave the Florida section of the convention floor vacant."

It will be interesting to see how this plays out. If the DNC makes an example out of Florida, then there will be an uproar over the loss of Florida's voice in the upcoming primaries, especially given how tight this race is. However, if the DNC fails to take serious action, there are already other states making preparations to move their start dates up even further. This would of course, trigger Iowa and New Hampshire, by their state laws, to move their primaries up into December.

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/08/24/332029.aspx

Quote :

"Michigan Democrats issued a letter, endorsing the proposed early contest date of Jan. 15, which has already passed in the Michigan Senate. This comes a day before the DNC is set to level heavy sanctions on Florida for moving up its date to Jan. 29. Part of why the DNC wants to take such a hard stance toward Florida is to send a message to other states, to put a halt to the shifting nominating contest calendar. But it will be interesting to see if tomorrow’s rules and bylaws meeting has the desired effect."

http://www.thestate.com/local/story/155238.html

Quote :

"S.C. Democratic Party chairwoman Carol Khare Fowler is a member of the DNC’s Rules and Bylaws Committee, which meets at 10 a.m. today. She said the committee will most likely find Florida’s Democratic Party to be “out of compliance” with party rules after Florida lawmakers and the governor moved their Democratic and Republican primaries to Jan. 29. That’s the date the party granted South Carolina Democrats for the first-in-the-South primary. Florida’s move caused a chain reaction that resulted in the S.C. Republican Primary being moved to Jan. 19 from Feb. 2 and most likely will cause New Hampshire to move its primary forward and Iowa to move its caucus, too."

8/25/2007 12:25:34 AM

everyone wants their state to be important

just set all the primaries on the same day and all this bullshit would be avoided

8/25/2007 12:38:20 AM

The main instigators are Florida, Nevada, and Michigan.

The problem is that the convention itself has become such a dog-and-pony show. It is far more important to be an earlier primary/caucus than to have representation at a convention where everything is scripted and nothing of substance occurs.

Voters realize this, and will place more relevance to a Florida primary with 3 million voters and no delegates than a New Hampshire primary with 600,000 voters and 15 delegates. (guess numbers all)

Here is a good site that has the current chronological primary/caucus order for both parties.

http://www.thegreenpapers.com/P08/events.phtml?s=c

^ Agreed.

[Edited on August 25, 2007 at 11:18 AM. Reason : /]

8/25/2007 11:15:19 AM

the us primary system is fucked up.

the shit worked okay in the 19th century, i suppose, but theres this shit we have called mass communication that just blows it all to hell.

we really need to revise our entire voting system.

8/25/2007 3:31:40 PM

From Ballot Access News:

http://www.ballot-access.org

Quote :

"On August 25, the Democratic National Committee Rules & Bylaws Committee voted to deprive the Florida Democratic Party of all its delegates to the national convention next year. However, if the state party agrees in the next 30 days not to choose its delegates at the January 29 presidential primary, the penalty will be revoked. The vote was almost unanimous. Probably the Florida Democratic Party will give in and schedule caucuses in February to choose its delegates. The January presidential primary will be just a “beauty contest.” Democratic National rules say no state may choose its delegates earlier than February 5, except for Nevada, South Carolina, New Hampshire and Iowa. "

8/25/2007 3:48:18 PM

Why do we allow hicks in hick states to create a bandwagon effect?

8/25/2007 4:34:51 PM

^ ive lived in or travelled thru damn near every state in the continental US, and all ive got to say is EVERY state has plenty of hicks.

8/25/2007 6:16:48 PM

Quote :

"everyone wants their state to be important just set all the primaries on the same day and all this bullshit would be avoided"

Agreed. That or have some sort of fixed rotating system.

Quote :

"It is far more important to be an earlier primary/caucus than to have representation at a convention where everything is scripted and nothing of substance occurs."

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you have no delegates at the convention, doesn't it mean that whatever your state votes has no impact on who is selected as the party candidate? Meaning that Florida's votes aren't counted when the official ballot is cast? That's why I thought these sanctions were such a big deal; they'd be "disenfranchising" Florida Democratic voters during the primary race. From what I remember as well, legally it isn't "disenfranchising" voters either since the primary is merely a private party vote and not one that directly determines an elected office; thus, the DNC has the legal standing to get away with it.

8/26/2007 12:19:40 AM

Quote :

"just set all the primaries on the same day and all this bullshit would be avoided"

8/26/2007 12:27:24 AM

And now Wyoming Republicans have put themselves into the pole position.

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/08/29/338149.aspx

8/29/2007 3:20:16 PM

How long until someone makes the date for their primaries be "three days ago".

[Edited on August 29, 2007 at 4:28 PM. Reason : .]

8/29/2007 4:28:00 PM

Quote :

"Two Florida Democrats who have raised a large amount of money for the Democratic Party in the past are threatening to withhold all future financial assistance to the Democratic National Committee, if that Committee eliminates all Florida delegates to the 2008 national convention. Wayne Hogan and his wife have donated more than $730,000 to units of the Democratic Party and its nominees during the past ten years. Also he was the Democratic nominee for U.S. House in the 7th district in 2002, and he spent over $2,000,000 of his own money on his campaign. On August 28, he cancelled a fundraiser for the Democratic National Committee that he had planned to host. He said he will also refuse to help the Committee in the future, unless it reverses its decision to deny Florida any delegates to the 2008 national convention. Dick Batchelor, another Florida fundraiser for the Democratic National Committee, said, “If Wayne Hogan turns off the spigot, other people will follow suit. Why should I support the national party when they’re basically vaporizing the influence our delegates would have in the nominating process?” Florida Democrats could have their delegates restored if they agreed not to use the January 29 presidential primary to elect delegates. But Florida Democrats say setting up a caucus procedure in February would be far too expensive and complicated, especially with so little time to plan caucuses. The Florida Democartic Party has used a presidential primary to choose convention delegates since 1928."

Quote :

"On August 30, the Michigan legislature passed SB 624, which says that the presidential primary will be on January 15. The Governor is expected to sign it. However, Michigan Democrats may decide not to use the primary, and use caucuses instead."

[Edited on August 30, 2007 at 10:58 PM. Reason : .]

8/30/2007 10:57:47 PM

funny... in 2000 and 2004, the Dems complained about 'Pubs denying democrats their votes. Now it's the Dems doing it...

8/30/2007 11:43:00 PM

^ no no, this way if the Dems can't actually win those votes they can't actually lose them either.

see?

8/31/2007 10:32:00 PM

looks like FL is still planning on an early primary, and the DNC is still planning on playing hardball.

9/25/2007 2:44:39 AM

Florida's kind of fucked up anyhow.

I dont mind if their votes dont count.

they'd just wind up voting for David Duke when they meant to vote for Obama or something.

9/25/2007 2:51:37 AM

Does anyone really believe that the Democratic Party will do anything to annoy Florida voters?

9/25/2007 8:38:02 AM

i think they'll blink first

but i can't believe it's gone this far

9/25/2007 9:03:04 AM

Neither can I. There is a lot of potential Democratic money in Florida. This kind of stunt potentially hurts the national party's attempts to raise funds. The more interesting thing will be how the Presidential candidates handle this if it looks like this collision is really going to occur.

9/25/2007 9:19:59 AM

or if they think they can gain some traction in florida.

i'm willing to bet people start doing low-key appearances in florida when the date of the primary gets closer.

9/25/2007 9:43:42 AM

I believe the rules also state that if a candidate campaigns (even so much as runs an ad) in a state that violates the primary rules, they lose either all their votes or all their DNC money or something

9/25/2007 12:03:12 PM

i'd really like to see some proof of this. i thought that the major candidates just agreed to not campaign there voluntarily.

9/25/2007 12:31:48 PM

I'm glad the DNC is steppin up on this one. This primary b.s. is getting ridiculous. If it doesn't stop, Presidents will start having to campaign for their party's nomination for the next election 2 years into their first term. And lord knows we don't need any more Senators ignoring the last (or middle) 2 years of their term to campaign for President. It's not like they accomplish very much during a full term.

Either way I see this ending badly for the DNC. Either they back down and they are made a mockery of, or Florida backs down and/or pushes ahead with the elections. Whatever Florida does, some of their base is going to be pissed off, and it could be enough to make them from abstain from voting in the general election to protest how they were treated in the primary. It might be only a handful of Democratic voters who do this, but remember, that's how many voters Gore lost the state to Bush by in 2000.

9/25/2007 12:41:58 PM

Quote :

"It might be only a handful of Democratic voters who do this, but remember, that's how many voters Gore lost the state to Bush by in 2000."

and here i thought that a republican state attorney general and the US Supreme Court decided that election.

9/25/2007 12:51:13 PM

It was a close election and the outcome depended on how you counted the votes. Ultimately it was decided by the supreme court, which is strange, but what's done is done.

9/25/2007 1:55:59 PM

Quote :

"Presidents will start having to campaign for their party's nomination for the next election 2 years into their first term"

It was my impression that the entire first term was just a big reelection campaign for a second term...

9/25/2007 3:39:28 PM

The Dems will be OK in Florida if Giuliani gets the nomination. He is going to have a tough time articulating why he wants to move to Washington, rather than Florida, after retiring from NY.

9/25/2007 3:40:32 PM

L


O


L

9/25/2007 4:18:32 PM

Quote :

"Less than two weeks ago, it looked as if the Florida Democratic Party and the Democratic National Committee had reached a deal in which the Florida Presidential primary would go forward as planned on January 29 -- in violation of both DNC and RNC rules -- and the Florida Dems would simply select convention delegates in a method to be decided after January 29. Those who tried to broker a truce were unable to sell it to the FDP Executive Committee. After State Democratic Chair Karen Thurman twice polled the members, but more than 75% of the state committee members polled opposed any compromise on the January 29 primary date. Thus, a defiant Thurman announced Sunday that the FDP leadership has "chosen overwhelmingly to reaffirm our strong commitment to fully participating in the state-run Democratic Presidential Primary on January 29, 2008, despite the penalties from the Democratic National Committee. There will be no other primary. Florida Democrats absolutely must vote on January 29th. We make this election matter. Not the DNC, not the delegates, not the candidates, but Florida Democrats like you and me voting together. We make it count. Don’t let anybody call this vote a 'beauty contest' or a 'straw poll.' On January 29, 2008, there will be a fair and open election in Florida, which will provide for maximum voter participation. The nation will be paying attention, and Florida Democrats will have a major impact in determining who the next President of the United States of America will be." The FDP even launched a website -- MakeItCountFlorida.com -- which draws a line in a sand. The DNC is expected, at least for now, to go forward with plans to punish Florida by stripping it of all national convention delegates and barring Presidential candidates from campaigning in the state. The Dem frontrunners say they will honor the ban on campaigning in Florida for the primary. State Senate Democratic Leader Steve Geller went so far as to dare the DNC to go forward on the threat. "We will have an election on January 29. The votes will count, and our delegates will be seated at the national convention," said Geller. He also hinted of a possible US Justice Department civil rights complaint or federal lawsuit to block sanctions because the DNC and the state party leadership in Iowa, New Hampshire, South Carolina and Nevada "are conspiring to prevent a minority voter in a Voting Rights [Act] state from having the opportunity to hear from any presidential candidate unless they are willing to pay for that privilege. That's an intentional violation of the Voting Rights Act." US Senator Bill Nelson (D) made similar comments two weeks ago. The RNC is likewise sanctioning Florida Republicans for breaking the schedule, but the punishment imposed on them is the loss of half the state's convention delegates. State GOP Chair Jim Greer announced last month that the Florida Republicans will send the full number of delegates to the national convention -- not just half -- and will demand a convention floor vote to seat the entire delegation. Governor Charlie Crist (R) said he supported Greer's move."

9/25/2007 6:48:54 PM

I wonder if they'll really get away with the Voting Rights Act approach; it seems like a bit of a stretch to me. After all, they said that it wouldn't be a denial of voter's right to begin with since primaries are technically an internal party affair instead of the election of an actual government office.

9/25/2007 11:41:14 PM

Quote :

"After all, they said that it wouldn't be a denial of voter's right to begin with since primaries are technically an internal party affair instead of the election of an actual government office."

They could maybe take the approach that it's not an internal party affair since the state pays for the primary and provides the infrastructure for the primary (Secretary of State, elections commission, precincts for voting, etc.).

9/26/2007 9:18:01 AM

i hope this whole debacle translates into some sort of national primary. that or a primary schedule that rotates from election to election (or is perhaps somehow randomized)

9/26/2007 10:31:46 AM

I hope so, though it would be a complicated affair given that arranging elections are a state's responsibility. I don't think New Hampshire is going to voluntarily repeal the laws requiring that the state set their primaries to be first in the nation...

9/26/2007 10:34:51 AM

it would just take some leadership on the parties' part

9/26/2007 10:36:55 AM

^^ A randomized schedule would be better IMO. To conduct a campaign for a singular national primary would require massive campaign funds which would eliminate potentially better but not initially as well known candidates.

[Edited on September 26, 2007 at 10:38 AM. Reason : ^]

9/26/2007 10:37:27 AM

another component to this sort of reform should be real public campaigns, but that seems like even more of a longshot than a national primary.

9/26/2007 10:38:20 AM

I agree. Perhaps split the states into roughly four to six equal blocks with each block having their election on a particular week. Then randomize what order the blocks will go in every election.

9/26/2007 10:56:10 AM

Quote :

"The DNC is expected, at least for now, to go forward with plans to punish Florida by stripping it of all national convention delegates and barring Presidential candidates from campaigning in the state."

so you see, I wasn't completely out in left field :-)

9/28/2007 6:41:18 AM