This is a pretty good and fairly balanced article about the firm's bid for domestic contract jobs.

Quote :

"The first Blackwater employees arrived in New Orleans just 36 hours after the levies broke. At one point, more than 600 Blackwater employees were in the city. Some were guarding the local Sheraton hotel. Others were helping fish people out of the water or were rescuing them off rooftops. Eventually, Blackwater landed a $73 million contact to protect FEMA staff helping with the Katrina recovery operation . . . "The guys walked us to our vehicles in the evening and from them in the morning," Davis said, "because not everyone in the disaster area were happy with what some of the agencies were providing — there were some people who were hostile."

Quote :

"The company's push to work on natural disasters in this country, however, has made some people edgy. Jeffrey Walker is a former Air Force attorney who is now a fellow at Georgetown University Law School. He raised the alarm about private security contractors like Blackwater more than a decade ago when he was working in the Pentagon. His issue, among others, is the lack of accountability . . . "From a capitalist point of view it is brilliant," said Walker. "You want to diversify your market to diversify your downside risk. But do you really want someone diversifying this service? This is hired gun service. And you are going to diversity this among the 51 jurisdictions in the U.S.? This makes me really nervous. This is not a good thing.""

This is something I find rather disturbing. On one hand, Blackwater attracts a certain type of personality, namely that which is willing to risk its life for monetary compensation and placing that kind of person in charge of LEO or recovery work. On the other hand, it could be argued that had cops in NO been compensated better, not as many would have deserted their posts in the Katrina aftermath.

[Edited on September 26, 2007 at 6:26 AM. Reason : oh, right, the link: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=14707922]

9/26/2007 6:25:42 AM

In a way, I would figure a private service is in one sense more accountable. That is, not only can you sue them into oblivion if they fuck up (and it won't come right back out of your pocket to pay the taxes to pay the settlement) but you can also far more easily send them to jail.

Yes accountability is an issue, but corruption is corruption and last I checked the government didn't have the greatest track record

9/26/2007 8:39:46 AM

Quote :

"That is, not only can you sue them into oblivion if they fuck up (and it won't come right back out of your pocket to pay the taxes to pay the settlement) but you can also far more easily send them to jail. "

this logic works only if they're working inside the US borders.

9/26/2007 8:59:15 AM

given that the topic at hand is domestic contracts for black water, I'd say the logic works.

9/26/2007 9:09:27 AM

I think my issue would be more with the personality a Blackwater type organization attracts. SOF guys are excellent killers but, except for Special Forces, they're not usually trained in the use of soft power. I mean, run the scenario of largely white SEAL mentality guys performing security on a large scale in the Katrina aftermath. It could get quite ugly quite quickly. And yes organizations like this are largely white and yes it matters.

I'm tempted to jump to conclusions here but maybe they've got the intent of hiring out LEO, EMT, and FF personnel to augment a domestic division.

[Edited on September 26, 2007 at 9:22 AM. Reason : .]

9/26/2007 9:21:06 AM

what is SOF??

9/26/2007 9:39:20 AM

Special Operations Forces: its a catchall phrase for SEALS, Rangers, Special Forces, Delta Force, Marine Force Recon and others. Blackwater recruits these guys heavily.

9/26/2007 9:41:07 AM

^^^^yeah. i know.

9/26/2007 9:43:07 AM

Quote :

"That is, not only can you sue them into oblivion if they fuck up (and it won't come right back out of your pocket to pay the taxes to pay the settlement) but you can also far more easily send them to jail."

kinda hard to sue when you're dead because of a hired gun with an itchy trigger finger.

Quote :

"Blackwater landed a $73 million contact to protect FEMA staff helping with the Katrina recovery operation . . . "

why could that money not be pumped into local law enforcement instead of a private company.....oh, that's right, no huge profits for the bush cronies.


Blackwater seems to me to be nothing more than a federal government task force with little or no accountability.

9/26/2007 9:46:30 AM

Quote :

"kinda hard to sue when you're dead because of a hired gun with an itchy trigger finger. "

You're just as dead whether the bullet comes from a US Army trained and certified 18 year old with a government issued weapon and an itchy trigger finger or a privately trained merc. It doesn't matter who pays the checks, dead is dead. But when your family goes to sue, they have a better chance against a private company than the government.

Quote :

"why could that money not be pumped into local law enforcement instead of a private company.....oh, that's right, no huge profits for the bush cronies. "

Or it might have something to do with local law enforcement abandonning their posts. That whole accountability and government oversight thing.

It also might have something to do with not pulling what was left of the local law enforcement from working in an area they know well just to provide security for government employees.

Quote :

"Blackwater seems to me to be nothing more than a federal government task force with little or no accountability."

As I said, they would appear to have as much if not more accountability than any one governmental organization. It's easy to fire a contracting firm, when was the last time they fired the army?

9/26/2007 10:19:16 AM

Again, the issue at hand isn't how you deal with the aftermath of an incident, its how you prevent it.

9/26/2007 10:27:51 AM

Quote :

"Blackwater Eyes Domestic Contracts in U.S."

Whatever distracts them from buying local elections because they're getting sick of county commissioners not rubber stamping their every request for permissions and permits.

9/26/2007 11:10:49 AM

Quote :

"It also might have something to do with not pulling what was left of the local law enforcement from working in an area they know well just to provide security for government employees."

that's why you bring in law enforcement from other areas, and encourage support from the immediate region, instead of pumping money into corporations that don't put it back into the local economy, for political reasons.

Quote :

"easy to fire a contracting firm"

being fired or losing a contract isn't the kind of accountability i meant

Quote :

"You're just as dead whether the bullet comes from a US Army trained and certified 18 year old with a government issued weapon and an itchy trigger finger or a privately trained merc. It doesn't matter who pays the checks, dead is dead. But when your family goes to sue, they have a better chance against a private company than the government."

when the mercenary knows he is not under military law, and possibly shielded from civilian law...it would probably tend to give the shoot first ask questions later mentality. Suing is a sorry replacement for justice when loved one is dead.

9/26/2007 11:20:24 AM

i'm sure any second now a guy in a blackwater shirt is going to come hurtling through your mom's dining room window and shoot her in the head

9/26/2007 11:55:34 AM

Quote :

"being fired or losing a contract isn't the kind of accountability i meant"

It's the ultimate accountability:

lose the contract, lose money, lose enough of it, go under.
'

The military can't do that and never will.

9/26/2007 11:56:00 AM

um, I'd argue imprisonment / exectution would be the "ultimate", and the military can do that.

The idea that the military should be privatized is a bad one which has been covered in TSB before.
/message_topic.aspx?topic=486974

9/26/2007 12:03:53 PM

The military will throw you in jail or out with a dishonorable discharge for disobeying orders.

To me personally thats as serious as just losing a paycheck.

9/26/2007 12:04:46 PM

anybody ever watch the show Jericho?

9/26/2007 12:12:55 PM

a DD or BCD can be far more punishing, financially and socially, than losing a few paychecks.

9/26/2007 12:21:35 PM

yes, to a pseron. But to an institution, not so much.

You cannot fire the army. The army will never go away.

9/26/2007 12:44:12 PM

You're aware that the army is actually made up of several people, yes?

9/26/2007 12:45:39 PM

yes. You are aware of my argument, right?


A person can be fired, but there will always be the army.


If BW fucks up enough and they don't get any contracts, the whole institution goes under.

9/26/2007 12:47:03 PM

If the army fucks up enough they can replace the entire upper management. Same concept.

9/26/2007 12:49:11 PM

no, no it's not.

9/26/2007 12:58:36 PM

Good response.

9/26/2007 12:59:31 PM

how in the hell do you want me to show you how the situations are different besides pointing out the obvious?

9/26/2007 1:05:45 PM

My point was the punitive action in response to mistakes exists in both situations. I'd like you to refute that.

9/26/2007 1:10:30 PM

both can "fire/DD" someone... you can't can the military. you can can a vendor.

9/26/2007 1:14:13 PM

Ok. Now you're repeating yourself.

You can't fire a vendor's management. Military leadership can be replaced with better suited people. How is this worse than only being able to can your entire force?

9/26/2007 1:21:03 PM

Quote :

"You can't fire a vendor's management. "

My point exactly. You fire the vendor and get another.

Quote :

"How is this worse than only being able to can your entire force?"

Because when the entire force is fubar'd, you have to change. It's the same thing I do in my personal life when I make choices like where to eat.

[Edited on September 26, 2007 at 1:33 PM. Reason : .]

9/26/2007 1:31:07 PM

Quote :

"you can't can the military. you can can a vendor."

problem is the "vendors" in these cases are too intertwined with the gov.

9/26/2007 1:43:51 PM

Going by your restaurant example, the government can replace the bad cook, bad waiter, bad valet, whatever that fucked up. Thats the incentive to do better. They don't have to shut the entire place down to correct something.

It comes down to the ability to micromanage versus macromanage. I don't see how either party has less accountability based on this.

9/26/2007 1:44:10 PM

^ that's like you blindly trusting the "under new management sign" at the local burger king after rats were found in the food.


I don't go to that restaurant.


I go to McDonalds.

9/26/2007 2:01:51 PM

What is there to blindly trust when the manager has been replaced and has outlined a new strategy? Believe it or not, not all people in the armed forces think exactly alike and share the same motivations.

9/26/2007 2:04:55 PM

let's not forget if our national guard units had stayed where they were supposed to instead of being shipped off to Iraq, this whole situation likely would not have been an issue:

Quote :

"The war in Iraq may also play a role in the recovery and cleanup of the hurricane. Earlier this month the Louisiana National Guard publicly complained that too much of its equipment was in Iraq. The local ABC news affiliate reported dozens of high water vehicles, Humvees, refuelers and generators are now abroad"

9/26/2007 2:25:23 PM

Quote :

"that's why you bring in law enforcement from other areas, and encourage support from the immediate region, instead of pumping money into corporations that don't put it back into the local economy, for political reasons. "

And where do you bring them from? Other cities? So then you have a mass of refugees fleeing an area, and you're pulling LEOs from the areas they're fleeing to? Or you could pull them from other states, but you want to talk about political red tape, try bringing a LEO force from one state into another state and allowing them to operate.

Somehow, pulling resources from one part of the state to fix the problems in another part doesn't seem like the best solution when you can call on resources that aren't being used for another job.

Quote :

"being fired or losing a contract isn't the kind of accountability i meant "

And what type did of accountability did you have in mind? The kind that allowed Abu Ghraib to happen? Or maybe it was the My Lai Massacre that you were thinking of? Again, whether they are US armed and trained or privately so, corruption is corruption and crazy people are crazy people.

Quote :

"when the mercenary knows he is not under military law, and possibly shielded from civilian law...it would probably tend to give the shoot first ask questions later mentality. Suing is a sorry replacement for justice when loved one is dead."

How are they shielded from civilian law anymore than a body guard is? As far as military law, simple, just make a stipulation of the contract that all mercs operate under the UCMJ. Then you can hang anyone who fucks up.

9/26/2007 5:33:16 PM

Quote :

"As far as military law, simple, just make a stipulation of the contract that all mercs operate under the UCMJ. Then you can hang anyone who fucks up. "

that's great and all, but it's not how it works now.

9/26/2007 5:38:10 PM

Quote :

"Or you could pull them from other states, but you want to talk about political red tape, try bringing a LEO force from one state into another state and allowing them to operate"

they did that in NO

did yall not watch the video of California Highway Patrolmen going door to door confiscating weapons from citizens of NO?

9/26/2007 5:48:47 PM

Quote :

" How are they shielded from civilian law anymore than a body guard is? As far as military law, simple, just make a stipulation of the contract that all mercs operate under the UCMJ. Then you can hang anyone who fucks up."

We don't need mercenaries in war or private contractors period. The only reason a need exists is because the lack of capacity in our own armed forces. KBR should not be doing the Army's laundry or supplying their water. The Army should be doing that.

9/26/2007 6:24:28 PM

Quote :

"that's great and all, but it's not how it works now."

The fact that it isn't how it's done currently in no way shape or form invalidates that it could be done that way. The fact that the government chooses not to exercise a method of oversight doesn't mean they can't. If you have a problem with that, then you have a problem with the government not with the contractor.

Quote :

"We don't need mercenaries in war or private contractors period. The only reason a need exists is because the lack of capacity in our own armed forces. KBR should not be doing the Army's laundry or supplying their water. The Army should be doing that."

However, that then requires that your military either constantly maintains the employment of certain sepcialists and personelle or that you draft such personelle when demand increases (such as for example in a time of war). Hiring contractors and mercs allows you to spread the cost of having specialists among other entitites while retaining their services when needed. Or would you really rather that we maintain war time spending in order to ensure that the military always has enough privates to do laundry and lay infrastructure in places beyond peacetime facilities.

9/26/2007 7:00:54 PM

domestically, Blackwater reminds me of Ravenwood from Jericho

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60W6xpxRSSA

full episodes of Jericho...
check them out...
http://www.cbs.com/primetime/jericho/video.php?cat=1&video=1&page=1&inner=115261

9/26/2007 7:17:26 PM

9/26/2007 7:28:27 PM

Someone monorail cat that pic!

9/26/2007 7:41:17 PM

Quote :

"let's not forget if our national guard units had stayed where they were supposed to instead of being shipped off to Iraq, this whole situation likely would not have been an issue:"

9/26/2007 7:59:39 PM

^ absolutely, but surely the resources of the national guard are wasted on providing security for FEMA personelle don't you think?

9/26/2007 9:16:31 PM

i didn't read the thread but i'm assuming they've been hired to "provide security" at our football and basketball games

9/26/2007 11:08:22 PM

Quote :

"absolutely, but surely the resources of the national guard are wasted on providing security for FEMA personelle don't you think? "

They're there to serve their state and surrounding areas. So, no. Whatever duty needed.

9/26/2007 11:46:17 PM

personelle personelle personelle personelle

9/27/2007 7:24:04 AM

I'm sure if they start doing domestic policing, search and rescue and all that jazz Blackwater will amend or extend their training to include non-lethal methods and a kinder, gentler machine-gun hand

9/27/2007 10:36:27 AM

^^^ not completely. The National Guard / US Army Reserve split is a convoluted one, but when all this stuff was sorted out about two decades ago, the National Guard got all of the combat arms branches (Infantry, Armor, Field Artillery, Aviation, etc.) and the Reserves got all of the support branches (Quartermaster, Transportation, etc.). The Federal Government approved of this with the understanding that they would be able to call up the NG when needed, they certainly wouldn't have given all of the fighting branches to the NG if they weren't going to be able to touch them.

Was this war ill advised? Thats one debate. Should the NG be called up to fight wars, ill advised or not? Yes, thats the whole purpose of having them.

[Edited on September 28, 2007 at 11:11 AM. Reason : ^ Neil Young FTW, gg]

9/28/2007 11:09:55 AM