ok the other threads were expired, so anyways after watching some documentaries im wondering how our government continues to enforce the income tax when it is not a law that you must pay.
and how are the efforts of people to fight this, silenced, media doesnt care, people dont care

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/10/05/tax.standoff/index.html
they got arrested but i cant believe that they are arresting people for breaking a non-existant law
this is the biggest sham in america today


i like to hear both sides of the story, what are the alternative to the income tax, i know most of the tax has to be collected one way or another, what are the best alternatives?

10/6/2007 11:28:49 AM

we're best suited for a corporate monarchy

10/6/2007 11:34:05 AM

Quote :

"The hardest thing in the world to understand is the income tax."

--Albert Einstein

10/6/2007 11:59:01 AM

They're the government. It's legal if they say it is.

The word you might have wanted to use is immoral, but even morality is relative.

10/6/2007 1:55:41 PM

tax should come from things like 'food tax', 'energy tax' etc...not on your income. They already tax our money on the way out, WhyTF should they tax it on the way in too.

10/6/2007 2:00:45 PM

Quote :

"They're the government. It's legal if they say it is."

10/6/2007 2:28:33 PM

we are all slaves of the system. This is why most crimes involve fines not imprisonment for a lot of things. The Gov. wants you at work making them $$$

10/6/2007 3:07:42 PM

here ya go

THE TAX PROTESTER FAQ

http://evans-legal.com/dan/tpfaq.html

/thread

[Edited on October 6, 2007 at 5:53 PM. Reason : .]

10/6/2007 5:52:32 PM

Quote :

"They're the government. It's legal if they say it is."

what? that is the worst way to think. this is the united states of america.
here the goverment is of the people, by the people, and for the people.
if we dont like something we can change it. and the government derives all of its powers from the constitution.

10/6/2007 6:38:13 PM

^ We already did change it. It's called the 16th Amendment. Repeal that shit and these tax protesters will have some ground to stand on.

10/6/2007 6:51:07 PM

we? no it was a couple of bankers and it was never ratified by enough states which is why the supreme court said it doesnt allow the fed to levy any tax because of it.

10/6/2007 8:08:20 PM

It was ratified by 38 states, fool. Go click on nastoute's link before you post another stupid, easily refuted argument.

10/6/2007 8:14:05 PM

lets face it...this government isn't of the people, by the people and for the people...its for the fat rich guys that make their dime off of everyone else.

10/6/2007 9:04:25 PM

Quote :

"tax should come from things like 'food tax', 'energy tax' etc...not on your income. They already tax our money on the way out, WhyTF should they tax it on the way in too."

no because then people with lower income would pay all the taxes buying milk, pampers and other necessities.

Tax should be on income and on an exponential scale ie the more you make the more you pay.

which is the way it is which is fine.

10/6/2007 9:51:28 PM

^everyone would be paying that tax. Rich people do drink milk too. Poor people won't be taxed on their income either anyway, so it all scales out. But you at least have the choice on what items you 'need' vs being taxed regardless.

to me its like double dipping. The gov. should only be allowed to tax us one way. It is, after all, our hard earned money.

[Edited on October 7, 2007 at 1:44 PM. Reason : ,]

10/7/2007 1:44:08 PM

Except that poor people spend a larger percentage of their income on food and other necessities, which means they will pay a larger tax percentage (relative to their income) than do rich people.

[Edited on October 7, 2007 at 3:29 PM. Reason : ]

10/7/2007 3:28:55 PM

food stamps. Certain income levels can use food stamps to purchase tax-free food or something on those lines.

10/7/2007 3:41:31 PM

Doesn't matter; at some income level there will be a food stamp cutoff. It is still true that, for those without the food stamps (and those who need to buy more than food stamps will provide...like soap, toothpaste, etc.), the lower your income, the higher your tax percentage.

10/7/2007 3:48:21 PM

well they are already paying sales tax on all those items. so whats different?

luxury tax.

[Edited on October 7, 2007 at 3:58 PM. Reason : .]

10/7/2007 3:58:28 PM

Quote :

"luxury tax"

or, another way to put it

is that sales tax should be exponential

not income tax

which really should be done away with

also, sales of services should be taxed differently than sales of products

10/7/2007 4:09:22 PM

We should just go back to taxing people based on how many windows they have.

10/7/2007 4:29:10 PM

Quote :

"well they are already paying sales tax on all those items. so whats different?"

Income tax and EIC exist, making the overall tax rate more equitiable than a pure consumption tax.

Don't get me wrong--I think the tax system is in desperate need of reform. But, I don't think that a straight consumption tax is the way to go.

10/7/2007 5:03:56 PM

just tax the hell out of cigarettes, marijuana, and alcohol. Get this country out of debt really quick. (or at least more so than they already are)

10/7/2007 7:56:51 PM

^ theyd have to legalize marijuana first

10/7/2007 8:48:03 PM

and... i'm fairly sure they already do tax the hell out of alcohol and cigarettes

10/7/2007 9:56:07 PM

Quote :

"no because then people with lower income would pay all the taxes buying milk, pampers and other necessities. Tax should be on income and on an exponential scale ie the more you make the more you pay. which is the way it is which is fine."

1. There are easy ways around your problem (the FairTax's "pre-bate" comes to mind, for example)

2. People with lower income would not be "paying all the taxes"...they'd be paying the same percentage (not to be confused with the same amount) as anyone else, if you didn't tweak the system around any.

3. Why do you prefer income-based taxation? That seems to be one of the dumber things to tax someone on.

4. Even if you wanted a highly progressive, income-based taxation system (I don't understand why, but hey, hypothetically), I don't think you could devise a more asinine way to implement it than we currently have.

5. Pampers aren't really a necessity. Plenty of frugal people use cloth diapers (people who don't HAVE to, but want to save money).




and I also hate the fact that the same dollar gets taxed over and over and over again. Taxed when you make it, taxed when you invest it, taxed when you spend it, taxed when you die.

10/8/2007 2:55:40 AM

^^^^Tax my smokes to twenty dollars a pack, but if you get crazy with my booze, I'm making my own...and selling it to anyone who wants it and not paying taxes at all.

10/8/2007 3:11:02 AM

This is what the NCSU diving coach was arrested for last year. Didn't pay taxes on the premise that the income tax was illegal. I'm not sure if he's gone to trial yet or not.

10/8/2007 8:14:03 AM

Do away with all income taxes, and just have a federal sales tax. Dont tax certain unprepared food or clothes under a certain dollar amount. = fairest tax scheme

10/8/2007 8:19:56 AM

^ agreed.

10/8/2007 9:08:12 AM

Quote :

" Dont tax certain unprepared food or clothes under a certain dollar "

People with alot of wealth buy unprepared foods and cheap clothes too.

Under the FairTax, we pay the sales tax on all goods and services. The Pre-bate will prevent the poor from paying any federal tax.

10/8/2007 10:28:31 AM

^so whats wrong with people with wealth buying cheap clothes and living within thier means?

10/8/2007 10:34:35 AM

Nothin is wrong with it. The problem is that liberals think that the tax system should be progressive, ie those rich people should pay the highest proportion of taxes "because they can afford it".

Without an income tax, frugal rich people could cause the tax system to become regressive.

[Edited on October 8, 2007 at 2:42 PM. Reason : 2]

10/8/2007 2:41:19 PM

http://youtube.com/watch?v=_rjuw4M78UU

10/8/2007 3:33:01 PM

Technically speaking, frugal rich people currently only pay taxes on the interest their wealth creates.

Only those currently becoming rich pay income taxes on their wealth.

10/8/2007 3:52:25 PM

Quote :

"The Pre-bate will "

make the tax unfair

10/8/2007 4:45:57 PM

Quote :

"luxury tax"

or, another way to put it

is that sales tax should be exponential

not income tax

which really should be done away with

also, sales of services should be taxed differently than sales of products

10/8/2007 5:11:23 PM

Quote :

"just tax the hell out of cigarettes, marijuana, and alcohol. Get this country out of debt really quick. (or at least more so than they already are)"

Maybe they should tax all the fucking ridiculous reality TV shows people watch. Your DVR would record the hours per day americans spend wasting their lives watching mind numbing shows like Kid Nation, Celebrity Ice Skating, Big Brother 90, Nanny 911, then the IRS would send them a bill. Not only would they make a shit load of $$$ but it may help the obesity problem as americans get off the couch and get a hobby.

On a serious note, in principle I do not necessarily have a problem with a Income tax. In practicality I think the tax rate is getting out of hand approx 28-33% for your avg middle class income. Most of this money is wasted on bureaucracy, pork, dropping bombs in international conflicts we shouldn't be involved in, and handouts to crack mothers pumping out babies to get more welfare.

10/8/2007 6:19:39 PM

if anything, the current tax isn't progressive enough. 10% of the population should not have 90% of the wealth and progressive tax is the perfecting element that brings balance to capitalism which is designed so that the more money you have the easier it is to make money and vice versa.

10/8/2007 9:31:21 PM

Quote :

"Technically speaking, frugal rich people currently only pay taxes on the interest their wealth creates. Only those currently becoming rich pay income taxes on their wealth."

This is a very astute observation that everyone should consider more carefully.

The progressive income tax most harshly punishes those young families who are in their prime earning years...raising children, buying homes & cars etc.

Really wealthy people hardly produce any taxable income. Consumption taxes are the most effective way to reach their money (if you are so presupposed to do that).

10/8/2007 9:44:36 PM

Quote :

"Do away with all income taxes, and just have a federal sales tax. Dont tax certain unprepared food or clothes under a certain dollar amount. = fairest tax scheme"

yup

10/8/2007 10:05:33 PM

^Yeah, I have a hard time following all the various schemes in the "fair tax". I know the idea is to shut up the critics who complain that the poor would actually be taxed, but the whole "prebate" makes me a little apprehensive. Sounds a lot like the EIC which is how everybody, except for the honest people, is cheating income tax. You shouldn't be able to get back taxes you have not paid, I don't care if they are sales taxes or income taxes. It's welfare available primarily to those who lie about their income (or purchases I suppose in the context of the "prebate", not that I understand all the caveats in the supposedly simple fair tax, sorry EarthDogg but it seems more and more complicated the longer I hear Neil Bortz elaborate on it )

10/8/2007 11:31:16 PM

Quote :

"10% of the population should not have 90% of the wealth"

says you.

10/8/2007 11:32:25 PM

Quote :

" You shouldn't be able to get back taxes you have not paid"

I agree. But there is no way any fed tax reform will pass unless it removes the poor from all federal tax responsibility. It's a political reality.

Quote :

"it seems more and more complicated "

Have you read the IRS income tax laws lately? Talk about too complicated.

The average taxpayer is the natural supporter of the FairTax. The enemies of this bill are the Washington lobbyists and politicians who would lose precious power.

10/9/2007 12:07:26 AM

honestly, what is there to complain about if everyone is charged a federal sales tax? If its not on unprepared food or clothes under a certain amount? Now the "poor" will have to pay more for rims, cell phones, cable, etc? So what, those are luxury items anyways. Honestly, it should SUCK to be poor, so you work hard not to be poor. Instead just handing people everything they need, so they can use thier money soley on things they want is not helping matters.

If everyone is charged the same you can effectively control how much you pay in taxes. You want a new car? Well maybe you dont get the lexus, but get the honda instead. Seems to me that puts more power in the people, which i realize govt doesnt want, and allows you to learn some priorities.

10/9/2007 10:06:19 AM

when you're born poor its hard to get out. like i said, capitalism and the credit system is setup for poor people to fail and richi people to get richer. The richest people need to be taxed 50% and foot the bill for everything. People have so much moeny that they aren't doing anything important with and just seeing how much they can be worth that money needs to be taken and put into helping society as a whole.

10/9/2007 11:29:26 AM

Quote :

"when you're born poor its hard to get out. like i said, capitalism and the credit system is setup for poor people to fail and richi people to get richer."

How do you explain all the rich people who started out dirt-poor?

10/9/2007 11:32:48 AM

Quote :

"How do you explain all the rich people who started out dirt-poor?"

There are exceptions in almost every case, don't pretend that you don't understand this.

10/9/2007 11:34:14 AM

yeah its hard to go to school make good grades, go onto college and get a good job. Of course when you are taught to not work, dont study, have a kid and collect your check... Sure why shouldnt those people have the same lifestyle as the first person? hahah

10/9/2007 11:51:53 AM

from an individual point of view its not that hard to not be poor but on a large scale they will just be replaced by a new poor person. you will always have poor people no matter what in capitalism. Also rich people don't have many kids so the population of poor is always increasing so even if 25% get out you're still going to have more poor people.

so even if most poor people work their way up they will always be replaced

Quote :

"yeah its hard to go to school make good grades, go onto college and get a good job. Of course when you are taught to not work, dont study, have a kid and collect your check... Sure why shouldnt those people have the same lifestyle as the first person? hahah"

it is hard if you don't have any leadership and have never had anything you wanted in life. Its tempting for them to not focus on school and work some little job isntead so they can just buy something they want as soon as they can instead of taking the long ride to work hard, get to college, wait 4 years, then get a job. Its easy for us to say thats dumb but unless you've been in that situation, you don't understand how hard it is.

10/9/2007 12:12:35 PM