Quote :

"By Johanna Neuman, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer October 11, 2007 WASHINGTON -- Over the objections of the Bush administration, a congressional committee today approved a bill that would recognize as "genocide" the World War I-era slaughter of 1.5 million Armenians. The House Foreign Affairs Committee voted 27-21 to back the proposal, which now goes to the House floor, according to the Associated Press. "Its passage would do great harm to our relations with a key ally in NATO and in the global war on terror." — President Bush Access to airfields and roads "would very much be put at risk if this resolution passes and Turkey reacts as strongly as we believe they will." — Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates The president had warned that passage could damage U.S. relations with Turkey, a key ally in the war against terrorism. "Its passage would do great harm to our relations with a key ally in NATO and in the global war on terror," Bush said on the south lawn of the White House. "We all deeply regret the tragic suffering of the Armenian people," he said, adding: "This resolution is not the right response to these mass killings." The contentious issue has been simmering in Congress for years, as Rep. Adam B. Schiff (D-Burbank), whose district includes more Armenian Americans than any other, has lobbied for the bill's passage. This year, he has collected more than half the House's 435 members to his side -- including House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-San Francisco), who has vowed to bring the bill to the floor for a vote for the first time. The resolution calls on the president to ensure that U.S. foreign policy "reflects appropriate understanding and sensitivity" to the issue and to use the word "genocide" in his annual April message about the killings. Turkey denies that the killings amounted to genocide, saying that Armenians and Turks alike were killed in ethnic clashes after World War I. Turkey, a NATO ally, has threatened to cut off cooperation with the United States on a number of security fronts if the resolution is passed. The country has unleashed a powerful lobbying force, including former House Speaker Bob Livingston (R-La.), to defeat the measure. The bill faces a tougher road in the 100-seat Senate, where Sen. Richard Durbin J. (D-Ill.) has attracted 32 co-sponsors. In speaking to reporters against the measure, administration officials went out of their way today to recognize the Armenian slaughter. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said the opposition stemmed from the danger to U.S. security interests, "not because the U.S. fails to recognize the terrible tragedy of 1915." She added that "the passage of this resolution at this time would be very problematic for everything we are trying to do in the Middle East." Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates said that about a third of the fuel used by the U.S. military in Iraq went through Turkey, along with many of its planes. Access to airfields and roads "would very much be put at risk if this resolution passes and Turkey reacts as strongly as we believe they will," he said. "

even the bush critics have to think he got this one right eh?

10/10/2007 6:35:06 PM

if you ever talk to turks, they always have two very particular opinions

a) the armenian genocide never happened

b) kurdistan has never existed and will never exist

10/10/2007 6:39:13 PM

Fuck Turkey, fuck their backwards-ass regime, fuck their denials, fuck their threats about Kurdistan, and fuck all the shit they do to this day that makes them unworthy of NATO and certainly the UN.

If they want to be stubborn about this and every other god damned thing then let them turn their backs on us. I'm all about diplomacy when the other side wants to be reasonable, but that's not the situation. So I say, recognize the genocide, take the various Kurdish groups off the list of terrorists, and send them guns.

[Edited on October 10, 2007 at 7:25 PM. Reason : ]

10/10/2007 7:24:03 PM

What is the point of this bill? To score another voting bloc for Schiff?

10/10/2007 7:39:19 PM

^^

you know that turkey is the most reasonable and moderate of the muslim countries, right?

it's not a bad thing that they're our friends

10/10/2007 8:09:53 PM

Admittedly, I don't know too much about Turkey.

But why the hell is ANYONE trying to pass bills about something that happened in WWI?

And why do the turks even care?

That's like if were to pass bills concerning WWI era Japan. We'd look like idiots.

10/10/2007 8:26:32 PM

Let's be frank here for a moment.

Saying that Turkey is "the most reasonable and moderate of the muslim countries" isn't too far a cry from going to the special ed class and pointing out the smartest kid with Downe's Syndrome.

I don't think that predominantly Muslim countries are fucked up because of their religion and certainly not because of the ethnicities that live there. But the fact remains that they are, almost universally, fucked up.

And I don't mean "fucked up" in the "OMG Bush got less popular votes" sense. I mean it in the "Your most stable and moderate country is basically a giant holocaust denier that constantly threatens to attack people who exercise their right to self-determination even when it happens outside of their borders while systematically oppressing religious minorities within their own country" sense.

I don't want to be friends with that guy, and frankly I think we're past the point where we need to be friends with that guy. Look, maybe we needed to keep them on our good side during the Cold War. Help keep the Black Sea locked up and block off Soviet expansion, you know. I could see it then.

But now they need us more than we need them. If they want the benefits of being a modern, liberal democracy, they can damn well start acting like one.

10/10/2007 8:50:31 PM

how can I protest with a big ass grin on my face?

10/10/2007 9:21:49 PM

This was pretty stupid to strain political relations with Turkey over something that happened 90 years in WW1. Really if they wanted to Turkey could pass a bill recognizing the genocide and removal of an entire civilization by the US government during late 1700's through 1800's. We after all do not have clean hands when it comes to treating other groups of people. Or they could pass a bill recognizing US provokation and aggression of Mexico during the American-Mexican war in the 1840's. Even on a more recent not the US funding of terrorists Freedom Fighters we supplied in Cuba.

I like how we pretend to be this perfect nation yet we have done some pretty fucked up shit thoughout hour history.

I think GrumpyGOP only payed attention to the optimistic patriotic dumbed down version of history he learned in 6th grade.

GrumpyGOP all the explorers (De Gama, Cortez, etc) that came to america did so to aid humanity by charting new land and create new allies among the original inhabitants of both S. and N. America right??

I do not believe the US has any right to bitch about other countries historical genocide until every fucking history book in our school system highlights that our entire country was created by the destruction and removal of an entire civilization that has been living on this continent since the last ice age.

[Edited on October 10, 2007 at 9:34 PM. Reason : l]

10/10/2007 9:29:30 PM

^ srsly

10/10/2007 9:45:07 PM

Wow I just realized that I supported Bush for once on an issue. Maybe, he did pay attention in history class at Yale.

10/10/2007 9:52:02 PM

Quote :

"This was pretty stupid to strain political relations with Turkey over something that happened 90 years in WW1."

I think it's the other way around. I think it's pretty stupid for Turkey to be threatening to withdraw tangible support over a purely abstract condemnation of genocide, the most condemnable crime there is. I think it is especially stupid for them to get in a hissy when the crime happened before there was such a state as "Turkey," the crime having in fact been committed by a now extinct government.

Quote :

"Really if they wanted to Turkey could pass a bill recognizing the genocide and removal of an entire civilization by the US government during late 1700's through 1800's."

What the hell kind of logic is this? "We've fucked up too, so we're never allowed to point out that anyone else has fucked up ever again." Let them recognize the American genocide. Hell, let us recognize the American genocide. That's not the god damned point.

Or maybe I missed the part where the legislation was about condemning Turkey and not the act of genocide. Plz to show.

Quote :

" I think GrumpyGOP only payed attention to the optimistic patriotic dumbed down version of history he learned in 6th grade."

I didn't get the dumbed-down version. I got the white devil version. America does indeed have a gruesome history of crimes against humanity, and I am no stranger to any of them. This being the case does not leave us impotent to protest, recognize, or combat other such crimes, especially not when we have clearly renounced them.

10/10/2007 10:03:05 PM

^^^^ By that logic, nobody can ever say anything about anyone. Rare are those with no skeletons in their closet. I'd certainly venture that no government--from small bands to global superpowers, past or present--is or has ever been skeleton free.

By your way of thinking it would be wrong to complain about Darfur, Rwanda, Cambodia, Timor, Yugoslavia, or (not to disappoint Godwin) even the Nazis.

Quote :

"I think GrumpyGOP only payed attention to the optimistic patriotic dumbed down version of history he learned in 6th grade."

Haha...I'm sure Grumpy will be along sometime to tell you all the ways in which you're wrong.

[Edited on October 10, 2007 at 10:05 PM. Reason : grumpy beat me to it!]

10/10/2007 10:04:56 PM

Quote :

"What the hell kind of logic is this? "We've fucked up too, so we're never allowed to point out that anyone else has fucked up ever again." Let them recognize the American genocide. Hell, let us recognize the American genocide. That's not the god damned point."

b.c it would make us hypocrites


^ noticed my post specfically says historical genocide. Everyone has the responsibility to recognize and stop genocide as it happens in current times.

10/10/2007 10:18:00 PM

Why do people want us to learn Darwin's theory of natural selection if its never going to be used in real life?

10/10/2007 10:25:46 PM

^^ Seems to be a strange distinction make.

It's hypocritical to condemn others historical genocides, but it's not hypocritical to intervene in others' contemporary genocides when we ourselves are guilty of the same crime.

10/10/2007 10:39:47 PM

So how does pissed-off Turkey affect our relationship with other nations?

10/10/2007 11:07:16 PM

An interesting note from the AFP post:

Quote :

"Late last month, all eight former US secretaries of state still alive wrote to House Speaker Nancy Pelosi urging her to withdraw her support of the genocide measure."

I understand why they support the bill, but I'm trying to figure out why they decided to introduce it now. This isn't an anniversary for the genocide. Turkey hasn't done anything new to further bury the issue. Congress has pretty much just come out and poked Turkey in the eye with a stick.

If you want to understand just how politically provocative this is, imagine if the European Union Parliament passed a resolution condemning the United States genocide of Native Americans, urging the EU and its member nations to make the issue of the genocide a part of all future diplomatic relations with the United States and bring the issue up each time they meet until the Americans properly address the harms they caused.

For a party that has constantly talked about the importance of good diplomacy, criticising the Bush administration for being unnecessarily provocative in its policies, this isn't exactly setting a good example.

For those who may say Turkey isn't important, keep this fact in mind:

Quote :

"Gates said that about 70 percent of all Iraq-bound US air cargo, 95 percent of tough new mine-resistant vehicles and one-third of the military's fuel transit through Turkey."

Given how touchy the Turks are about this entire issue, they could really jack up US supply lines flowing into Iraq by banning us from using their territory and only further slow the delivery of armored vehicles and critical supplies to soldiers in the field. As for those who think the Turks wouldn't go so far, never underestimate the power of nationalism.

10/11/2007 2:18:14 AM

Quote :

" It's hypocritical to condemn others historical genocides, but it's not hypocritical to intervene in others' contemporary genocides when we ourselves are guilty of the same crime. "

ummmmm maybe b.c its that probably 99% of the population of Turkey was alive or even in a position that was involved with the genocide in Turkey during WW1


BTW I like how i agree with Bush for once and the same guys who would bitch and argue at me otherwise still are trying to argue. I think some of you guys do not really have your own political opinions but merely come to SB to argue and counter other peoples points of view w/o actually establishing your own beliefs.

[Edited on October 11, 2007 at 2:50 AM. Reason : l]

10/11/2007 2:35:36 AM

I'm going to assume that you meant "was not alive".

Here's your position as I understand it:

Because we (the United States) have genocide in our past, it is hypocrtical of us to criticize others for their historical genocides. You do distinguish between criticism of contemporary genocide (not hypocritical) and historical genocide (hypocritical).

What I'm trying to understand is:

1) If past genocide removes our moral leg with respect to others, why do you distinguish between past and present genocides? Why is our moral leg strong in the present, but weak in the past? Morals are morals, right? Or do morals change over time?

2) You also say that it makes us hypocritical to criticize the Turks for actions that none of the current Turks had anything to do with. Couldn't the same be said for the United States? We certainly have no connection with the Spanish and Portuguese explorers who laid waste to the indigenous empires of South and Central America (and some of Southwest North America). No one alive today was involved in the Cootie Infested Blanket Distribution Program (CIBD). Why do the sins of our fathers visit us, but not the Turks?

3) The only difference between our textbooks and those of other countries are which parts are left out. All textbooks are selective. Why do our textbooks make us hypocrites, but apparently (in your view) others' textbooks don't make them hypocrites?

Quote :

"I like how i agree with Bush for once and the same guys who would bitch and argue at me otherwise still are trying to argue."

First of all, if you think that Soap Box is full of people who automatically support Bush...well, you're wrong. You're looking for 1 of maybe 5 people who regularly post here. Not Soap Box at large. You agreeing with Bush doesn't really get you much of anything. Or is this just an expression of 'If I think you disagree with me, then you must support Bush!!!!1!"

Secondly, if you read the thread, you'll notice that not one single person (including myself) has agreed with this bill.

[Edited on October 11, 2007 at 9:20 AM. Reason : ]

10/11/2007 9:18:24 AM

the ethical thing to do would be to pass similar resolutions and apologize for the genocides and wrongs that we have committed in the past as well as denouncing what others have done and continue to do.

this is the only way we'll have any sort of moral or ethical leg to stand or any form of credibility in these sort of matters.

[Edited on October 11, 2007 at 9:39 AM. Reason : *]

10/11/2007 9:39:14 AM

Quote :

"1) If past genocide removes our moral leg with respect to others, why do you distinguish between past and present genocides? Why is our moral leg strong in the present, but weak in the past? Morals are morals, right? Or do morals change over time? "

b.c we can not do anything to fix the past and neither can Turkey. We can, however, work
with other countries and our own domestic practices to ensure no genocide occurs in the contemporary.

Quote :

"2) You also say that it makes us hypocritical to criticize the Turks for actions that none of the current Turks had anything to do with. Couldn't the same be said for the United States? We certainly have no connection with the Spanish and Portuguese explorers who laid waste to the indigenous empires of South and Central America (and some of Southwest North America). No one alive today was involved in the Cootie Infested Blanket Distribution Program (CIBD). Why do the sins of our fathers visit us, but not the Turks?"

This was exactly my point.

Quote :

"3) The only difference between our textbooks and those of other countries are which parts are left out."

good point. My issue is just that a lot of people are eager to demonize other countries for their mistakes yet
many are clueless to our own historical atrocities.
This is mainly b.c unless they take an advanced American history class or investigate American history through their own
interest; most Americans are given a dumbed down edited version of US history through the main stream educational system.
I remember from my own history classes that the Indian wars are given a positive pro-USA spin; and is usually skipped over
in order to have long patriotic building lectures about the US saving the world in WW1 and WW2.

10/11/2007 11:05:18 AM

We've been killing tens of thousands of Iraqis over the past few years. It's not genocide, but the body count's getting close.

10/11/2007 11:21:51 AM

maybe that is the reason bush is not supporting the bill. It would just make him look like a hypocrite.

I am surprised no one else has noticed or mentioned it yet, but it was actually a completely different government that committed the genocide (Ottoman Empire) then the one currently ruling in Ankara (Turkey).

Hell we might as well pass another resolution to criticize modern Germany for the genocide that occurred during Nazi Germany.

[Edited on October 11, 2007 at 12:05 PM. Reason : l]

10/11/2007 11:42:55 AM

Quote :

"I am surprised no one else has noticed or mentioned it yet, but it was actually a completely different government that committed the genocide (Ottoman Empire) then the one currently ruling in Ankara (Turkey)."

GrumpyGOP:

Quote :

"I think it is especially stupid for them to get in a hissy when the crime happened before there was such a state as "Turkey," the crime having in fact been committed by a now extinct government."

10/11/2007 12:45:58 PM

i'm confused

GrumpyGOP

Quote :

"Fuck Turkey, fuck their backwards-ass regime, fuck their denials, fuck their threats about Kurdistan, and fuck all the shit they do to this day that makes them unworthy of NATO and certainly the UN. If they want to be stubborn about this and every other god damned thing then let them turn their backs on us. I'm all about diplomacy when the other side wants to be reasonable, but that's not the situation. So I say, recognize the genocide, take the various Kurdish groups off the list of terrorists, and send them guns."

10/11/2007 12:55:55 PM

I am at a loss for words to describe how irrelevant that post is.

Yes, I say fuck Turkey for a variety of reasons, including their insistence on denying this genocide. That's not the same thing as saying that Turkey perpetrated the genocide. I say fuck Iran, too, for denying the Holocaust; that doesn't mean I think the SS was full of Persians.

My point in what I quoted was to show just how irrational the Turks are acting for being so pissed off about this, for making the whole thing about them.

10/11/2007 1:07:23 PM

so you are agreeing that your initial post in the thread was off topic; basically a troll rant

10/11/2007 1:09:36 PM

I think it was very much on topic, given that so much of the OP was devoted to how our action will affect relations with Turkey. My response to that was, "Fuck relations with Turkey." Admittedly it could have been put more diplomatically, but it wasn't off topic.

Frankly, I'm not even sure what else there is to discuss, unless someone wants to deny that the Armenian genocide was really an Armenian genocide. Any talk about the political ramifications of the move must inevitably at least refer back to the issue of what Turkey thinks about it.

10/11/2007 1:15:27 PM

Quote :

"AP: Private NTV television reports that Turkey has recalled its ambassador to the United States over the Armenian genocide bill. "

10/11/2007 1:26:37 PM

Oh hell no.

10/11/2007 1:31:55 PM

oh Snap.

Lets add Turkey to the axis of evil and to our agenda of countries to initiate regime' change in.

US Regime' Change agenda-

Afghanistan
Iraq
Iran
Syria
N. Korea
Turkey

10/11/2007 1:34:25 PM

Quote :

" Egemen Bagis, a foreign policy adviser to Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan, told an audience in Washington that U.S. lawmakers wanted to play hard ball, adding: "I can assure you Turkey knows how to play hard ball." Bagis added that Turkey would respond if Congress passed a bill and warned: "I can promise you it won't be pleasant." He cited Turkey's refusal to allow French airplanes to cross its air space since France passed a law declaring it a crime to deny that the mass killings of Armenians between 1915 and 1923 constituted genocide."

Now I don't think denial should be a crime either, but if they try to cut us off for just recognizing the damn thing I say we go after NATO. Either kick them out, withdraw ourselves, or just dissolve the whole shebang -- whatever the treaty allows. Then we can have a strategic alliance that doesn't include this kind of riff-raff.

[Edited on October 11, 2007 at 1:39 PM. Reason : damn thing]

10/11/2007 1:38:42 PM

I think leaving NATO is not necessarily a bad thing. the cold war is over

10/11/2007 1:40:00 PM

this just makes turkey look like shit. i mean everyone knows that it happened. why doesn't turkey spin it into something like "look at how much better THIS gov't is than that genocide-loving WWI-era one"

[Edited on October 11, 2007 at 1:43 PM. Reason : clarify]

10/11/2007 1:42:17 PM

true

10/11/2007 1:44:33 PM

If they try to move on Iraqi territory chasing the PKK right now I hope we block them. I don't know how good Turkey thinks their hand is, but I get the feeling they don't fully understand the game.

10/11/2007 1:45:37 PM

If we are actually thinking about helping Darfur, we can at least acknowledge genocides that already happened.

For the record, I think Turkey is bluffing. They have too much on the line right now, as an EU candidate, to pay more than lip service to denial of an internationally recognized genocide. They will complain to cater to their constituents, and then get back to business as usual.

10/11/2007 1:51:11 PM

This bill plays into the hands of people who would love nothing more then an pro-islamic non-secular Turkey simply because it stokes the nationalism thats very prevalent within Turkish Society and gives support to a Government that is more then slightly right-wing. What really gets me is the irony of Congress passing a resolution to declare actions of nearly a century ago genocide in the middle of an American war in the Middle East.

Not only are we trying to piss of nations in the region that aren't our friends, but we're actively trying to piss off nations that ARE our friends.

And this time, its not the Administration's doing.

10/11/2007 1:59:29 PM

Quote :

"Not only are we trying to piss of nations in the region that aren't our friends, but we're actively trying to piss off nations that ARE our friends."

that would make sense if the people who currently support the war were the same as the supporters of this bill.

10/11/2007 2:03:17 PM

Turkey isn't the only country that we've passed meaningless resolutions against.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/01/world/asia/01japan.html

10/11/2007 2:05:51 PM

we pass meaningless resolutions every day.

we pass resolutions like ones celebrating the ncaa women's golf champions and other equally pointless stuff.

10/11/2007 2:08:28 PM

Hence my noted irony, sarijoul.

Also, this isn't something stupid like declaring NCAA women's sports relevant.

10/11/2007 2:12:10 PM

They will let this slide since we let them have Engin Atsur back.

10/11/2007 2:25:22 PM

and Kevin Corchiani

10/11/2007 2:43:57 PM

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/10/11/us.turkey.armenians/index.html

Turkey recalls ambassador

this is really retarded

the white house needs to reign these idiots in

10/11/2007 2:44:13 PM

fuck it dude lets just nuke 'em. Git ER DUN. USA USA USA USA

10/11/2007 2:54:18 PM

^^The White House is too busy stroking Turkey's ego.

[Edited on October 11, 2007 at 3:15 PM. Reason : .]

10/11/2007 3:14:43 PM

Quote :

"The White House is too busy stroking Turkey's ego."

No, for better or worse, the White House is the one who actually has to execute foreign policy. Congress can say whatever it wants to guarantee it an extra seat or two in the next election without having to deal with the consequences.

As I pointed out before:

Quote :

"Late last month, all eight former US secretaries of state still alive wrote to House Speaker Nancy Pelosi urging her to withdraw her support of the genocide measure."

Both Democrats and Republicans who actually had to run diplomacy, both in its finest moments and its worst, are saying that this whole bill is a bad idea.

10/11/2007 3:33:25 PM

It's a bad idea on multiple levels, least of which includes our failure of a war -still ongoing- in Iraq.

10/11/2007 3:49:24 PM