http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/10/17/turkey.iraq/index.html

60,000 troops... that's not border patrolling. That's an army.

10/17/2007 12:02:04 PM

so does that mean we get to kill them now?

10/17/2007 12:06:50 PM

is this bad?

10/17/2007 12:19:25 PM

Probably.

10/17/2007 12:27:41 PM

With that many soldiers involved, things can't end happily. I read that the Iraqi government just dispatched their Sunni VP to go and negotiate with the Turks.

10/17/2007 12:34:55 PM

Quote :

"so does that mean we get to kill them now?"

No. The Turkish Army have quite the reputation.

I can see both sides of this. The U.S. wants stability and little trouble in an area not giving our troops any problems. The Turks want to get rid of Kurdish terrorists killing them from bases across the border.

[Edited on October 17, 2007 at 12:48 PM. Reason : /]

10/17/2007 12:46:49 PM

Quote :

"Turkish MPs backed him overwhelmingly, by 507 votes to 19. As the vote was being counted, President George W Bush strongly urged America's Turkish ally not to carry out the threatened action. He said Washington was "making it clear to Turkey it is not in their interest to send more troops in... there is a better way to deal with the issue". Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri Maliki had earlier phoned the Turkish prime minister, saying he was "absolutely determined" to remove the PKK from Iraq and pleading for more time, according to Turkey's Anatolia news agency. Iraqi President Jalal Talabani, an ethnic Kurd, urged Turkey not to make an incursion, but also called on the PKK "to end the so-called military activity". The autonomous Kurdish regional government in northern Iraq warned Turkish MPs that any intervention would be "illegal". It has denied providing the PKK with any help. The rebels themselves said they would meet force with force. The chief of the PKK's executive council, Murat Karayilan, told the Kurdish Hawlati newspaper: "Thousands of PKK guerrillas are on standby to fight Turkish army forces.""

My gut opinion: the Kurds want the Turks to cross the border. I think they believe if it occurs, the U.S. will stand behind them.

Quote :

"Meanwhile, Barhim Salih, Iraq's deputy prime minister, who is Kurdish, told CNN that Iraqis believe the "prospect of unilateral action will mean irreparable damage to bilateral relations, and will be a bad consequence to Iraq, bad consequence to Turkey, bad consequence to the region." "If Turkey were to give itself the right to interfere in Iraq militarily, what is there to stop other neighbors from doing so?""

I think that cat was already let out of the bag.

[Edited on October 17, 2007 at 1:05 PM. Reason : /]

10/17/2007 12:58:42 PM

Quote :

"making it clear to Turkey it is not in their interest to send more troops in... there is a better way to deal with the issue"

Its funny coming from Bush that he would say that. Isn't the US dealing with their 'terrorist' problem in the exact same way, except half a world away....

10/17/2007 1:02:08 PM

Can someone get me up to speed quickly on this? PKK rebels are acting like terrorist in northern kurdistan and Turkey doesn't like it? Correct?

Why do we care if turkish forces attack these people, if only these people?

I know I'm missing a lot.

10/17/2007 1:19:26 PM

^ Because northern Iraq with the Kurds has been the only peaceful place in the country.

10/17/2007 1:30:41 PM

^^ because they've been US allies since the Iran-Iraq ended

they're pro-US so they can't possibly be turrists

and then there's the small matter of the following:

http://tinyurl.com/yryrz7



[Edited on October 17, 2007 at 1:40 PM. Reason : Edited on October 17, 2007 at 1:31 PM. Reason : [Edited on October 17, 2007 at 1:31 PM. Reason : ^]

10/17/2007 1:30:56 PM

^^^ Surely you can recognize the dilemma presented if a fellow NATO member state invades a nation in which the US is responsible for the security and stability of.

10/17/2007 1:55:30 PM

They break it, they own it.

10/17/2007 2:09:28 PM

Is the PKK a separatist/terrorist organization? I realize they are "Iraqi" (if that has any meaning anymore) but if Turkey is only interested in ferreting out these few thousand trouble makers and not actually invading the heart of Kurdistan, then why should we interfere? Is there oil at stake?

I know you guys have had some discussion about this in the past month or so, I just didn't pay a ton of attention.

[Edited on October 17, 2007 at 2:22 PM. Reason : ex]

10/17/2007 2:21:29 PM

you know there are a couple of cities in Iraq that the Turks still think are THEIRS

10/17/2007 2:27:28 PM

to be fair, this is apparently not the first time they've done operations like this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1997_Military_Operation_of_Turkey_in_North_of_Iraq

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1995_Military_Operation_of_Turkey_in_North_of_Iraq

10/17/2007 2:31:02 PM

who the fuck cares, they are defending themselves

isn't that the same reason we're in iraq?

10/17/2007 2:33:10 PM

Quote :

"you know there are a couple of cities in Iraq that the Turks still think are THEIRS"

And....the entire middle east thinks Israel belongs to it...If the Turks are just defending themselves from these rebels, and don't have intentions of occupying any valuable parts of Iraq/Kurdistan...then do we care?

10/17/2007 2:39:52 PM

umm... well a basic understanding of regional politics is a good start as to why we should care

we're in iraq because of a hawkish administration

10/17/2007 2:40:03 PM

^^

maybe this time the turks will keep a nominal peacekeeping force in northern iraq

what do you think of that?

10/17/2007 2:41:03 PM

The notion that Turks still think that Mosul belongs to the Turkish state is just silly. Ataturk wanted to include the Turkish border to include Mosul, that's true, but at that time there were many Turkomen there because the Ottoman Empire had just died. The people there who are ethnically Turkish probably don't know a word of the language today, and are probably Arab in culture. I don't think Turkey is interested in extending its border, but instead wants to stop the bombings and attacks that the PKK engages in.

The PKK is not Iraqi. It's a Kurdish group who has been trying to establish an independent state for Kurds. I think we can essentially blame the British for this one. They promised everyone their own nation to get them to help fight the Ottomans, and the groups who were left out/brutally repressed paid a very heavy price. A few years back, Turkey passed a resolution allowing Kurdish to be taught in schools, and I think that Kurds in Eastern Turkey are enjoying more and more rights. However, in Syria I know that it is illegal to teach Kurdish or to give your children a Kurdish name. I also think that the Iranians have been notoriously cruel to the Kurds, but I can't state that as fact as I'm not 100% sure.

10/17/2007 3:53:34 PM

Quote :

"you know there are a couple of cities in Iraq that the Turks still think are THEIRS"

the only reason I know this is because a Turkish friend pointed it out to me

i'm just saying...

10/17/2007 3:59:18 PM

I for one wouldn't want to be a Turkish Kurd out of fear that my ethnic group would come to be called "the Turds".

10/17/2007 3:59:38 PM

60,000 Turkish troops in Iraq could be just what we need.

Maybe now the insurgents/terrorists/al quida/al queada/bad guys will rally and attack THEM.

Seriously, this is new ground for us tho, but Nastoute is still right as in its nothing new for Turkey. But seeing as we now control Iraq and its affairs affect us greatly worldwide, this is interesting and potentially bad. Potentially.

10/17/2007 4:22:55 PM

Way to go Pelosi.

10/17/2007 10:28:51 PM

mhum..... Pelosi wants to make a vote in the HoR, and Turkey attacks Iraq....

10/17/2007 10:58:58 PM

so? it's obvious all anyone cares about is the decider's opinion

10/17/2007 11:28:55 PM

Quote :

"I for one wouldn't want to be a Turkish Kurd out of fear that my ethnic group would come to be called "the Turds"."

10/18/2007 1:16:30 PM

A PKK bomb went off a block behind where I was two summers ago.

10/18/2007 1:50:54 PM

Quote :

"Way to go Pelosi Bush"

.... for unnecessarily putting us in this fucked up situation to begin with. What the fuck are we doing in Iraq anyhow? Wheres the chemical warheads? wheres the weapons-grade plutonium? I thought Saddam had missles pointed at Grandma's bedroom window?

I want my money back.




[Edited on October 18, 2007 at 2:44 PM. Reason : ]

10/18/2007 2:43:14 PM

I agree that Bush screwed up by getting us stuck in Iraq to begin with, but that doesn't mean Pelosi is automatically absolved for supporting actions that make matters worse.

10/18/2007 3:42:53 PM

of course. and i agree.

pelosi needs to be replaced as Speaker while theres still another year left to do some good. Reid can go too, as far as i care, but I'd be willing to give him some more time. Pelosi's time is long up.

in any event, congress didnt architect this poorly conceived and poorly executed war.

no matter what one or two, or ten or one hundred congressmen fuck up, its nothing compared to the responsibility that lays on The Decider.

because unlike The Decider, poor choices by members or leaders of congress can still be debated and reconsidered. luckily. as they are doing right now. The armenian genocide bill is all but dead in the water.





[Edited on October 18, 2007 at 4:57 PM. Reason : ]

10/18/2007 4:51:50 PM

holy shit

i just use to post that sandsanta was from turkey but the mf actually is from turkey...lol i usually just act like i know how to ethnically profile people but that time i actually did

10/18/2007 4:53:58 PM

http://youtube.com/watch?v=6BEsZMvrq-I


the oracle

10/18/2007 9:45:31 PM

he doesn't look so much like a Dark Lord there, as he does a sad muppet.

10/19/2007 9:13:00 AM

I just changed my mind. Reid doesnt get anymore time. Just like Pelosi, his fucking time is up.

Bof' deez bitches got to GO

10/20/2007 4:11:16 AM

i dont care for them too much

10/20/2007 4:23:37 AM

^^ I concur.

10/20/2007 4:49:52 AM

monvural pretty much hit the nail on the head. The Kurds aren't ethnically Persian, Arab, or Turk but they cover some of the more oil rich land in Iran, Iraq, and Turkey. They're largely autonomous in Iraq and Iran at this point, but less so in Turkey and old grudges run deep.

The PKK are a communist leaning (I'm not throwing that out as a red herring, they really are) group in Kurdistan who violently advocate the creation of Kurdistan as a separate state and they do so by terrorist means. There is a reason they are on both our and Turkey's list of terrorist groups.

The thing is, we've set a precedent that, if you sponsor terrorism, you get invaded (Afghanistan and "Iraq") and if terrorists are operating in your borders, you sure as hell better help us out, or we'll invade you too (Pakistan). Ad the de facto rulers of Iraq, it is our responsibility to restrain terrorist groups operating inside Iraq, no matter who their target is. Obviously, we can't yet stop them from attacking us, much less conducting cross border attacks in the very mountainous north. (For an idea of what Kurdish controlled areas look like, check out the picture Dihuk in my photo gallery under the Iraq folder).

There are a number of things that make this potentially catastrophic. First, the Kurds are largely on our side because their primary interaction with American troops was Special Forces A-teams augmenting the Peshmerga. They fought their own battle and our presence north of Mosul is fairly limited. Thus, they do not feel occupied and act, not as an occupied province, but as a largely autonomous state. Second, if you think American troops commit atrocities, wait until the Turks invade. Finally, the obvious . . . what happens when an American bullet finds a Turkish Soldier or vice versa?

I don't think anything is going to happen, but it is sure making for some tense moments.

10/20/2007 7:07:11 AM

^ Something did happen.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7055004.stm

I'm serious. I think the Kurdish rebels want the Turkish army to invade.

[Edited on October 21, 2007 at 12:26 PM. Reason : .]

10/21/2007 12:12:51 PM

they are just trying to open up supply lines to get thanksgiving meals in through the north.

10/21/2007 12:34:39 PM

Can't we all just get along????

10/21/2007 6:25:06 PM

Quote :

"they are just trying to open up supply lines to get thanksgiving meals in through the north."

haha, novemeber in soviet iraq:

turkey eat YOU

10/21/2007 7:27:49 PM

^^ 'Cause of "turrists"!

10/21/2007 10:33:49 PM

why cant we just leave and let turkey fix it and then take their oil?

10/21/2007 10:34:46 PM

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/22/AR2007102200746.html?hpid=topnews&sid=ST2007102200451

The PKK takes eight Turkish soldiers hostage.

Here's a 10-second analogy for this crisis, and how I think things will occur:

PKK = Hezbollah
Kurdistan = Lebanon
Turkey = Israel
October 2007 = July 2006

10/22/2007 2:09:11 PM

I say let Turkey take care of business. Unless we are the only ones allowed to invade Iraq. At least Turkey actually has some justification.

Quote :

"they're pro-US so they can't possibly be turrists"

yeah; if they are our allies than they are "freedom fighters" not terrorists. I would hate for us to have a double standard.

[Edited on October 22, 2007 at 2:28 PM. Reason : l]

10/22/2007 2:27:03 PM

Quote :

"i just use to post that sandsanta was from turkey but the mf actually is from turkey...lol i usually just act like i know how to ethnically profile people but that time i actually did"

wrap your head in cling wrap and take a deep breath. plz.

10/22/2007 2:48:46 PM

Get the fuck out of here with this bullshit until you have sometime useful to contribute. This is not chit chat.

10/22/2007 4:03:06 PM

Get the fuck out of here with this bullshit until you have sometime useful to contribute. This is not chit chat.

10/22/2007 4:05:21 PM