i'm entertaining an offer to work for $50/hour as a contract C++ coder doing audio video drivers. it has potential of going permanent for right person (although I don't know if permanent pay rate would be less)

two problems that i have:

(1) it's not an engineering position. they want a CS "or equivalent experience". so basically any bonehead who can hack his way through C can get this job.

(2) its for this company: http://www.x10.com/

...

now who here would work for this place, and tell me what your degree is in.

11/8/2007 1:29:58 AM

If you'll be happy doing that job, then take it, definitely. However if you're looking to do programming for and engineering firm or the like, then look for what you want.

Of course, you could always just take this job (that is temp as you said) while you keep searching for the job you really want ... that's ideal, getting income while job searching!

Oh, and do we get discounts if you work there?

Btw, I'm CS ... and I'd work for them to get free stuff, lol ... or as a stepping stone/rest stop towards a better job. I've not heard anything about their "working conditions", so can't answer that any further.

[Edited on November 8, 2007 at 1:41 AM. Reason : Btw.]

11/8/2007 1:39:55 AM

I've heard a lot about the company but nothing about working conditions. However, clearly they should hire a design team for their website.


what do you do now? Do you have a job at all or do you work some where better/worse?

[Edited on November 8, 2007 at 1:50 AM. Reason : ...]

11/8/2007 1:49:22 AM

they spammed the internet from 1995-2001 with those damn ads

11/8/2007 2:02:09 AM

i personally wouldn't work for a company whose website looks that horrible

11/8/2007 2:11:56 AM

Quote :

"they spammed the internet from 1995-2001 with those damn ads"

yah, inorite.

those fucking popups EVERYWHERE you went -- always about "buy our wireless webcams for Home Security!" along with a repetitive pan of some half-dressed juggy babe.

and their website is like every possible horrible advertisement gimmick rolled up into one page.

and their employees all look like fat computer geeks who wish they could be a DJ in a strip club.

Quote :

"what do you do now? Do you have a job at all or do you work some where better/worse"

i have a BSEE and am working as an engineer, not a programmer. i'm damn sure not making $50/hour though. but my job is legitimate (with a manufacturer of scientific instruments), and has some sort of social value.

11/8/2007 2:34:14 AM

That seems like pretty good pay for a position whose qualifications are listed so low. Aside from the fact that I wouldn't want to spend my time coding a/v drivers, I wouldn't want to work for x10 because I don't support their product and take issue with the way they've promoted them in the past. But if neither of those concerns apply to you, it could be a good short-term contract position while you look for something else that would be more permanent.

11/8/2007 2:37:39 AM

Quote :

"That seems like pretty good pay for a position whose qualifications are listed so low."

the pay seems overly high. suggests that they cant get (or keep) people.

Quote :

"I wouldn't want to spend my time coding a/v drivers"

why not? i wouldn't mind that so much

Quote :

"I wouldn't want to work for x10 because I don't support their product and take issue with the way they've promoted them in the past."

thats my problem /exactly/ ... i wanted to see if i was the only one who thought this.

Quote :

"it could be a good short-term contract position while you look for something else that would be more permanent."

reminds me of the bit from "Clerks" where the characters were arguing about the moral ambiguity of contractors for The Empire who were killed when the Death Star was blown up in Return of the Jedi.

I don't think i want to work for Evil. even a minor evil. where would you draw the line?

11/8/2007 2:58:02 AM

Quote :

"the pay seems overly high. suggests that they cant get (or keep) people."

Or it could be that their HR person or the manager who wrote the job description either doesn't fully understand the depth of knowledge required for the job or isn't letting on about the full extent of what you'll be expected to tackle. Either way, not an encouraging sign.


As for drawing a line, I wouldn't do it, and it's encouraging to see that you're having those qualms too. If you have misgivings about a company and don't want to support them by working for them, then that, combined with the possibility that they're hurting for people to do the job, means that turning down the position may very well cause them direct financial harm. That may seem far-fetched, but it's a good enough reason for me not to compromise my own values for the sake of a few months' rent.

While I was working as a consultant, I was in the enviable position of having the ear of very senior executives, but even though there was potential for me to help a client improve their operations and become "less evil," I did turn down the opportunity to work with several clients based on how I felt about their industry or other practices. There were plenty of other clients for me to serve, and at the moment there are plenty of other tech jobs out there.

11/8/2007 3:25:17 AM

Quote :

"i have a BSEE and am working as an engineer, not a programmer. i'm damn sure not making $50/hour though. but my job is legitimate (with a manufacturer of scientific instruments), and has some sort of social value."

making more money is always nice but sometimes its not worth it at the expense of job security or work place 'happiness'

11/8/2007 12:33:22 PM

It's a contract job. The pay is going to be high because you won't receive any benefits, and you shouldn't consider your job to be anything permanent. They will hire you for a job, you will do it to the best of your ability, and if they like you and what you've done, you may get rehired for another contract, and if they really like you, they'll offer you employment.

It's a great way to get your foot in the door into a company you really want to work for, and it's also a great way to get away from code you've written, if you're the type who likes writing from a spec, but hates to maintain it after it's done.

You'll probably be working in a cubicle, and you'll probably be treated as a second-class citizen while you're there. You'll also be making more than most of the employees.

11/8/2007 3:54:56 PM

"(1) it's not an engineering position. they want a CS "or equivalent experience". so basically any bonehead who can hack his way through C can get this job."

ummm.... well im a bit offended by this to say the least. i mean i have a cousin that can write little programs in C, but that dont mean he can write drivers. you know CSC is in in the college of engineering. and that the diference between a person that can program and a CSC graduate is tremendous. i mean making decent software is not as easy as people might think, requires a lot of design and "engineering".

i dont know what your skill level with CSC or programming is, just letting you know that if the company is worth shit they will not hire you if you dont know how to be a systems engineer, know design pattern. know alot about data structures.

11/8/2007 7:52:22 PM

If you don't care about development, you won't be a good developer. Most people who study something other than CS don't care about development.

11/8/2007 11:43:24 PM

sorry to have offended, it wasnt my intent.

but i disagree.

computer science is not engineering.

and here in the greater seattle area, there are a shit ton of people who call themselves "software engineers" who dont even have a 4-year degree, much less training as an engineer.

right now is a boom time for tech jobs. so many of them have as requirements listed "degree in computer science, engineering or equivalent experience preferred". i was told by a "software engineering" recruiter to put my degree down at the bottom of my resume, because "no one really cares"

thats why i'm hesitant to get locked into an SDE or SDET job.

for those of you keeping score at home, the X10 job is off my list. too many jobs out there for me to stoop to that level.

Now im talking to one of Microsoft's Zune teams. interestingly, they only pay $35.00/hr for essentially the same skill set.

11/8/2007 11:49:46 PM

if that's a contract rate (no benefits), that's shitty. i would think MS would do better

11/9/2007 1:18:12 AM

Quote :

"i was told by a "software engineering" recruiter an idiot to put my degree down at the bottom of my resume, because "no one really cares""

I have a skill set far superior to the one gained by graduating any 4 year institution, but because I'm not done with school, I've been turned away countless times even though I'm the most qualified.

11/9/2007 1:28:20 AM

Quote :

"Now im talking to one of Microsoft's Zune teams. interestingly, they only pay $35.00/hr for essentially the same skill set."

same contracting setup?

11/9/2007 1:37:16 AM

Alright for the record, I agree with everyone here ... I was trying to be as unbiased towards the actual company as I could, I thought he was asking who would work there based on some sort of work related experience level, not because of what he thought about their product. As I said, if I were to work there, it would only be as a stepping stone if I felt that job would provide adequate beneficial work experience.

I most definitely wouldn't work there long term, but contractually, and if I needed the money, and if it was the only thing out there ... I honestly don't care what kind of widget they make or what their website looks like, it's the work-experience that matters for quick jobs. Name recognition comes later.

That said, obviously I misunderstood and you're not looking for what I said, joe_schmoe ... so find a job that suits you and one that you can respect the company. Fwiw, working for Microsoft is always a win-situation, you get software significantly discounted, plus you can network with other companies and find the job you want much easier due to a ridiculous number of conferences and the constant acquisition of new technologies.

11/9/2007 1:58:28 AM

Quote :

"if that's a contract rate (no benefits), that's shitty. i would think MS would do better"

full benefits through the technical recruiter that MS does most of their contracting through. Benes are standard (decent) but nothing out of the ordinary.

Quote :

""i was told by a "software engineering" recruiter an idiot to put my degree down at the bottom of my resume, because "no one really cares""

hey, i was feeling a little insulted, too. Personally, I won't buy it. getting a BSEE is nothing to sneeze at ... but i may be a little biased.

He is a senior recruiter at a prestigious national tech recruiting firm, so... take it for what its worth. The way i look at it, he only recruits for "software development" positions, which to be honest, often don't require a degree in anything, if you can show enough relevant experience. Maybe its just differentn out here in Microsoft and Amazon land... but theres a shit ton of so-called "software development engineers" who have degrees in business, history, basket-weaving ... or nothing at all -- but theyve got years of development experiences (often in UI type stuff, yeah I know)

Quote :

"because I'm not done with school, I've been turned away countless times even though I'm the most qualified."

oh, you are, are you? and how are you so sure that's the reason?

Quote :

"same contracting setup?"

not exactly.... two different recruiters. the people who handle MS, pretty much thats ALL they do. but really, the only difference between most large, national recruiters is which accounts they handle. otherwise benefits are standard and pay is fairly standard, but varies somewhat with how desperate the company at hand is. X10 appears to be more desperate than most.

11/9/2007 2:31:47 AM

Quote :

"gs7 : As I said, if I were to work there, it would only be as a stepping stone if I felt that job would provide adequate beneficial work experience."

if i was recent grad, single, early- to mid-20's... i might take that job for 6 - 12 months, if the technical experience was good and relevant to what i wanted to do. (not to mention, fringe benefit of fappable company literature and video archives )

so your advice wasnt wrong. just not right for me. i can take the philosophical higher ground, but even at the most pragmatic level, i have a wife (who is sensitive to women's exploitation issues) and a 3 year old kid to whom i need to be a role model for ... I dont think thats the type of product/company i want to work for at this point in my life

Its just ... damn. $50/hr. + benefits would be fairly comfortable.




(speaking of being a role model to a 3 year old kid, i'm going to have to get rid of this damn T-Dub account before he realizes his daddy argues with college kids on the internets at midnight )





[Edited on November 9, 2007 at 2:48 AM. Reason : ]

11/9/2007 2:46:15 AM

Quote :

"oh, you are, are you? and how are you so sure that's the reason?"

because I've been told this by several of my recruiters

I should preface "I have a skill set far superior to the one gained by graduating any 4 year institution," with, "for the jobs I apply for,"

sure a degree is valuable, but in my particular field, IT with a security concentration, practice has far more merit as far as skills gained.

[Edited on November 9, 2007 at 3:26 AM. Reason : .]

11/9/2007 3:23:01 AM

for every IT or network security job out here that *requires* a degree, theres two others that will accept demonstrated experience in lieu of a degree. it aint no backdoor, either. says so right in the published job description

I cant imagine its any different on the east coast. you must be doing something wrong, or else your skills aren't demonstrable.

11/9/2007 3:49:22 AM

yeah, i guess some of you weren't aware of the contract situation out here.

when i said $50/hr., you technically work for the staffing firm (think like a Manpower or Volt), and you get a standard benefits package. they act as your employer for tax purposes (withholding, contributing the 7.something % to FICA, unemployment insurance, etc...)

contracts typically last 6 - 12 months. many places say contract-to-hire, assuming you fit in. a lot of people just go from one contract gig to the next with the same consulting/placement firm.

so in effect, its making >$100K per year, with medical, dental, 401K, paid vacations... (plus as hourly contractor, you get paid your straight hourly rate for all overtime hours... if theyre hiring contractors because of a crisis, you might rack up serious overtime pay)

so.... NOW would you work for http://www.x10.com ?






[Edited on November 9, 2007 at 4:06 AM. Reason : ]

11/9/2007 4:01:08 AM

I wouldnt have a problem working with them.

They do some neat stuff, my house is filled/run by thier products. I used thier ActiveHome SDK to write my own web based control software.

I say take the job, get some exposure to something a little outside of the box, and if you dont like it, move on.

11/9/2007 7:00:57 AM

Quote :

"sometimes its not worth it at the expense of job security or work place 'happiness' "

He is in a technical field. Take the money and run. If you think your job is secure you're fooling yourself (not always a bad thing).

Thank you come again

11/9/2007 8:18:32 AM

Quote :

"I cant imagine its any different on the east coast."

you'd be wrong. or, the work around here that doesn't require a degree is bitch work/contract work that has absolutely no room to move up. ie: entry level code monkey, help desk work, etc. I'm not interested in work that pays under $50/hr (contract) or 65k/yr with benefits, so maybe you're right and there are tons of low paying jobs I could get, they just don't interest me. Freelance contracting offers me comparable if not better money and completely flexible schedule, so that's what I do right now until I finish school or get a quality full time offer.

[Edited on November 9, 2007 at 11:48 AM. Reason : you can also edit your posts within 30min of posting them, fyi]

[Edited on November 9, 2007 at 12:11 PM. Reason : don't forget software tester. everyone loves testing]

11/9/2007 11:47:43 AM

Quote :

"He is in a technical field. Take the money and run. If you think your job is secure you're fooling yourself (not always a bad thing). Thank you come again"

short term contract vs full time employment. Which one is more secure?

Happiness vs Miserable. Which one would you rather be?

11/9/2007 11:58:53 AM

that video on the website would make me want to

DO IT.

11/9/2007 12:17:10 PM

CSC
crazy crop science programmers

11/9/2007 1:21:58 PM

this thread is slowly turning into a cockfight.

11/9/2007 5:19:05 PM

Fry you not representing....

"Maybe its just differentn out here in Microsoft and Amazon land... "

hey joe_schmoe, you might not know this, but here in the untechy south east, we have a thing called the RTP, which stands for Research Triangle Park. i hope to god you know what that is. you might also not know this, but it is the worlds largest research park, and realty there is gold to and company that wants to be anywhere. also the RTP directly harvests new engineers in all fields, including computer science fields. they do not go out looking for people who dont know whit about CSC. my father works at IBM and hires people on a daily basis, and has given me example resumes, all of them say where they graduated, and 99% are in CSC. you are ignorant if you think you are as competent in designing code as a NCSU CSC grad. (and this joker, smoothcrim... any one who claims to be so good usually is not. its just plain pompous)

anyways. you said SCS is not a engineering field.....

"An engineer is someone who is trained or professionally engaged in a branch of engineering.[1] Engineers use technology, mathematics, and scientific knowledge to solve practical problems. People who work as engineers typically have an academic degree in one of the engineering disciplines.[2]"

i really dont see how CSC is not engineering. you are ignorant to say the least.

you say you have a BSEE...

would it be fair of me to say any stoner that can pick up a multi meter and hook up some diodes a 555 chip some LED's, resistors and make little lights blink, is good enought to be a EE in the real world.

i mean come one, you should just see how ignorant some of your statements are.

as for some of the reasons i think people have a misconceptions on why CSC is not engineering is because it is so redly available, what i mean is that its taught in schools, anyone can get a free compiler online and some tutorials and make little programs. books are so available. HTML is so easy and every second person has a website, people make mods for games.

but all these things do not mean you are a professional quality software engineer.

11/9/2007 8:05:02 PM

haha just went to the site. i bet that guy made the video while he was on the can. he looks like he is constipated.

obviously that company would hire someone that was not a software engineer. i mean it looks like it was made by a 12 year old.

[Edited on November 9, 2007 at 8:12 PM. Reason : bleh]

11/9/2007 8:08:31 PM

^^ sorry to bust your nuts about this, man.

but if Computer Science were an engineering discipline, they would call it "Computer Engineering"

... oh, wait.... sorry, I guess that name's already been taken. well, you get the idea.

anyhow, tell me how you did on the FE exam... when are you going to sit for the PE?

11/9/2007 8:24:24 PM

brokenbit just made my brain hurt. please come back to the debate after you've learned how to express yourself in english; also, being able to type is considered a desirable skill when working with computers.

11/9/2007 9:46:57 PM

out of all that i said thats all you could reply.

you are one of the most ignorant peope i have ever come across..

the only reason there are things like the PE Exam, FE Exam, EIT Exam, ARE Exam, NCIDQ Exam, and LS Exams.....

issss..... whhyyyyy.... because those fields are aincient and have been established a long time ago.
these exams are there to protect society because these fields could effect society, and these exams ensure that the "engineers" in these fields are proficient.....

in terms of a time line CSC is still a fetus and other engineering fields are grandparents. do you know that there are plans for just such an exam for CSC too ???? because it has become clear that there is a huge increase in shit software... and because of this they are gonna do the same things as in other engineering fields so that that doesent happen. so that idiots with EE degrees cant fuck up computer systems because they coundent "design/engineer" a system that was good enough.

who consults TWW about should i take this job anyways... why not consult your top ranked tech recruitment firm. haha.

11/9/2007 9:47:03 PM

Computer Engineering = hardware
Computer Science = software

like you said... computer engineering was taken but that doesn't mean computer science is not a form of engineering you n00b.

11/9/2007 9:52:08 PM

^^^ well i do apologize, but english is not my first language. and as for caps and so on i dont think that its necessary for a online forum.

"also, being able to type is considered a desirable skill when working with computers."

that is true, but thankfully language heuristics and spelling checks are to the point where even i can write a legible document.

and in coding i don't see how that would help. except for comments maybe.

^ yep, and there are also fields like ECE. in a few years time CSC will get certification exams and this will all be a thing of the past. and you will see that code will get better and that salaries for CSC positions will go up.

[Edited on November 9, 2007 at 10:00 PM. Reason : sfdg]

[Edited on November 9, 2007 at 10:01 PM. Reason : sp]

11/9/2007 9:56:32 PM

Quote :

"you are ignorant if you think you are as competent in designing code as a NCSU CSC grad."

just because you know people who take their degree seriously, who possibly do code work outside of school, does not mean you have to follow suit to graduate from ncsu's csc department. I'm sure Stein could chime in on that

on top of that, I don't specialize in coding, nor did I mention I had any exceptional skill in it. I clearly stated that my skill set in IT with a concentration in security (you know, the jobs created to support the products of computer scientists) was greater than that one could pick up obtaining a computer science or related undergrad degree. Frankly, it's such a dynamic field, the only way to really learn in it and up your skill set is from hands on experience.

[Edited on November 10, 2007 at 10:04 AM. Reason : ]

11/10/2007 10:03:34 AM