Quote :

"At issue are 69 constitutional amendments, approved for the Dec. 2 referendum by the overwhelmingly pro-Chavez National Assembly, that would let him run for re-election indefinitely, suspend civil liberties during states of emergency, censor the news media and take control of the national bank [emphasis added]. One former high-ranking general is a particular concern: Former military chief and longtime friend Raul Baduel broke with Chavez this week, urging voters to reject the proposed constitutional changes as a virtual 'coup.' Baduel also said he wouldn't rule out his own run for office, revealing divisions within the military that analysts say Chavez worries about constantly. University leaders have accused Chavez' government of arming the groups who opened fire on students returning from a peaceful march on Wednesday. At least eight people were injured during the violence, including two students by gunfire, officials said. Associated Press photographers saw at least four gunmen — their faces covered by ski masks or T-shirts — firing handguns at the government opponents on the Central University of Venezuela campus."

Quote :

"Chavez opponents say the president has long wanted to end the autonomy of Venezuela's public universities, most of which are run by opposition rectors who defeated Chavista candidates in campus elections. Street protests led by university students have spread from Caracas to several other major cities. Justice Minister Pedro Carreno blamed students, opposition leaders and the media for 'filling a part of the population with hate.'"

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jzdRTXM4YqhixIyArQ744qvTftCgD8SQ88D80

None of this sounds very democratic to me.

11/9/2007 2:49:19 PM

I guess you guys have short memories. I remember at least one poster in another similarly themed thread that always took the "Chavez is getting a bad shake from the American propaganda machine" side of any Chavez argument. It centered mainly around the guy "winning" the election and all the overwhelming support he was getting from his native Venezuelans.

I guess you can include me in the short memory group because I can't remember the specific user.

I'll just say what I said in the other thread. I know a few Venezuelan families and the rosy picture of a public that adores and voluntarily elects Chavez isn't anywhere close to the truth... according to them.

11/10/2007 5:54:36 PM

Spanish King tell Chavez to shut up
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8SR2R2O1&show_article=1

11/10/2007 8:04:28 PM

It's about time somebody did. I think most of the world takes Chavez for the idiot he is, though.

11/11/2007 11:09:46 AM

Quote :

"Chavez is da man"

Wolfman Tim

Quote :

"Why does it matter what he does in his OWN country?"

rainman

Quote :

"Wasn't Chavez democratically elected anyway? There's only so much hate you can have for him, until you have to blame the people of Venezuela."

moron

Quote :

"Chavez Bush is a typical leftist rightist despot who thinks democracy exists only as far as his interests are concerned. He isn't the 1st leftist rightist despot and sadly won't be the last..."

HockeyRoman

Quote :

"Venezuela's government is Venezuela's business, especially when their leader is legally and democratically elected."

joe_schmoe

/message_topic.aspx?topic=479771

11/12/2007 9:18:26 AM

^ That was another hooksaw-abortion of a thread.

Re-reading that thread to place the comments in context, most of those quotes have more to do with expressing a non-interventionist policy towards Venezuela than they have to do with being pro-Chavez.

The first quote is an obvious joke.

11/12/2007 9:43:28 AM

We should just accept the fact that hooksaw and TreeTwista10 is just smarter than the 20 other TWW members that debate them in every thread.

[Edited on November 13, 2007 at 12:19 AM. Reason : INTENTIONALLY LEAVING THIS POST --theDuke866]

11/12/2007 10:11:28 AM

^^^

Quote :

"suspend"

11/12/2007 5:42:09 PM

Answer some of the questions, they were valid.

How old are you?

Why aren't you above the childish bickering?

Why do you tell people what their positions are before they even post in the threads?

Legit questions you won't have legit answers to.

[Edited on November 13, 2007 at 12:23 AM. Reason : LEAVING PART OF THIS POST, TOO, DUE TO THE OVERWHELMING IRONY--theDuke866]

11/12/2007 6:05:18 PM

lets take this to the TSB smackdown thread...


Stop fucking it up.

[Edited on November 13, 2007 at 12:24 AM. Reason : LEAVING PARTS OF THIS POST...GOOD ADVICE HERE]

11/12/2007 6:13:12 PM

Quote :

"Chavez Bush is a typical leftist rightist despot who thinks democracy exists only as far as his interests are concerned. He isn't the 1st leftist rightist despot and sadly won't be the last..."

And how exactly was that supporting or defending Chavez? Oh that's right, it wasn't.

11/12/2007 7:01:28 PM

*** If you'll notice, I've deleted a shit ton of grossly off-topic, unnecessary, and counterproductive posts from this thread.

I don't give a flying fuck what you think of hooksaw. I don't necessarily disagree with some of the sentiments. Don't fuck away his threads, though--I think we've seen this scenario a couple of times before, where the person everyone is bitching about isn't half as bad as those doing the bitching.

In short, either debate him or simply fucking ignore him, but don't go posting this petty bullshit all over Soap Box threads. If you feel like doing some shit talking, allow me to direct you to the thread devoted specifically to that purpose:

http://brentroad.com/message_topic.aspx?topic=500208


Now if you can't follow these simple instructions, expect to find yourself sitting with your nose in the corner until you figure it out. If I start to get the impression that you aren't going to figure it out, expect to get into a contest with me to figure out whether or not you get tired of spending $5 on new user names faster than I get tired of suspending them.

[Edited on November 13, 2007 at 12:30 AM. Reason : ***and hooksaw, don't think for a second that I'm writing you a blank check]

11/13/2007 12:29:46 AM

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21777430/

Apparently Chavez thinks telling someone to "shut up" is disrespectful and calling someone a fascist and the devil is not.

11/13/2007 10:19:06 PM

^^ Um. . .thank you, sir?

11/13/2007 10:51:51 PM

'Shut up' Chavez is ringtone hit

Quote :

"An estimated 500,000 people have downloaded the insult featuring the words 'Why don't you shut up?', generating a reported 1.5m euros ($2m). King Juan Carlos asked Hugo Chavez to 'shut up' at a summit in Chile last week after the president said Spain's ex-PM Jose Maria Aznar was a 'fascist'. Branded mugs, t-shirts and websites featuring the row are also profitable. In Venezuela, a group of students who oppose Mr Chavez's government have also been downloading the ringtone, a US newspaper reported. 'It's a form of protest,' a 21-year-old student in Caracas told the Miami Herald. 'It's something that a lot of people would like to tell the president.'"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7101386.stm

Ha-ha!

11/19/2007 3:48:40 PM

11/19/2007 4:50:52 PM

Quote :

"Whoever does not miss the Soviet Union has no heart. Whoever wants it back has no brain"

I'm sure theres a derivation for Venezuela

11/19/2007 4:54:42 PM

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/americas/11/19/spain.shutup.ap/index.html

Quote :

"MADRID, Spain (AP) -- Many Spaniards were so amused when their king told Venezuela's president to "shut up" they want to hear the words every time their phone rings. The king's outburst "Por que no te callas?" or "Why don't you shut up?" has become a hit About half a million people have downloaded a mobile phone ringtone featuring the phrase "Por que no te callas?" or "Why don't you shut up?" leading Madrid daily El Pais reported on its Web site Monday. That's what King Juan Carlos told Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez during a heated confrontation at a summit in Chile last week. The ringtone is thought to have generated around $2.2 million for the companies selling it, El Pais said. T-shirts and mugs featuring the words are also becoming a profitable business, and videos of the confrontation have been a hit on the YouTube Web site. Chavez's opponents in Venezuela are no less obsessed."

11/20/2007 7:37:39 AM

i got a kick out of that ^

11/20/2007 2:21:41 PM

^^ Did you not see that I had already posted that?

Chavez, Ahmadinejad To Work Against US
Chavez And Ahmadinejad Promise To Work Against US, Call Dollar's Slide Sign Of Waning US Power

Quote :

"(AP) Venezuela's outspoken president joined with Iran's leader Monday in boasting that they are 'united like a single fist' in challenging American influence, saying the fall of the dollar is a sign that 'the U.S. empire is coming down.' Hugo Chavez also joked about the most serious issue the U.S. is confronting regarding Iran _ nuclear weapons _ during his get-together with Iranian leader Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. The visit came after a failed attempt by the firebrand duo to move OPEC away from pricing its oil in dollars."

Quote :

"Making his fourth trip to Tehran in two years, Chavez has built a strong bond with Ahmadinejad that has produced a string of business agreements as well as a torrent of rhetoric presenting their two countries as an example of how smaller nations can stand up to the U.S. 'Here are two brother countries, united like a single fist,' Chavez said upon his arrival in Tehran, according to Venezuela's state-run Bolivarian News Agency. 'God willing, with the fall of the dollar, the deviant U.S. imperialism will fall as soon as possible, too,' Chavez said after a two-hour closed meeting with Ahmadinejad, the Iranian state news agency IRNA reported."

Quote :

"The leftist leader is a harsh critic of President Bush, while Iran's Islamic government is in a bitter standoff with Washington over Tehran's nuclear program. The U.S. accuses Iran of seeking to develop nuclear weapons, a claim Tehran denies, and Iran has been hit with two rounds of U.N. sanctions for refusing to suspend uranium enrichment. Although it's a sensitive issue for his ally, Chavez joked about acquiring his own atomic bombs, apparently seeking to poke fun at the U.S. accusation that Iran is using its nuclear program as a cover to develop nuclear weapons. According to a Venezuelan state TV report, when a reporter asked about the aims of his visit, Chavez quipped: 'As the imperialist press says, I came to look for an atomic bomb, and I've got it here. If anyone should cross me, I'll fire it.' The report didn't say how Ahmadinejad reacted to the joke."

Quote :

"Ahmadinejad backed his 'dear brother' Chavez in their joint fight with the Bush administration. 'We have common viewpoints and we will stand by each other until we capture the high peaks. God is with us and victory is awaiting us,' he was quoted as saying by IRNA."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/11/19/ap/middleeast/main3523620.shtml

11/21/2007 12:45:06 AM

So hooksaw makes highly inflammatory statements calling people "Chavez supporters" and then gets called out on it. Instead of admitting that he was wrong he ignores it and continues posting stupid bs that no one reads anyways. Brilliant.

11/21/2007 3:52:54 AM

Quote :

"CARACAS, Venezuela -- The lines formed at dawn and remained long throughout the day — hundreds upon hundreds of Venezuelans waiting to buy scarce milk, chicken and sugar at state-run outdoor markets staffed by soldiers in fatigues (see photo above). President Chavez's government is trying to cope with shortages of some foods, and the lines at state-run "Megamercal" street markets show many Venezuelans are willing to wait for hours to snap up a handful of products they seldom find in supermarkets. The lines for basic foods at subsidized prices are paradoxical for an oil-rich nation that in many ways is a land of plenty. Shopping malls are bustling, new car sales are booming and privately owned supermarkets are stocked with American potato chips, French wines and Swiss Gruyere cheese. Yet other foods covered by price controls — eggs, chicken — periodically are hard to find in supermarkets. Fresh milk has become a luxury, and even baby formula is scarcer nowadays."

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5itJYZ3RsxWTJtMxupU6H5-H39uLQD8T1KR8O0
I love economics when it allows me to reliably predict the future. Goods not covered by price controls are plentiful. Goods covered by price controls are hard to find. Bravo.

[Edited on November 21, 2007 at 5:07 PM. Reason : link]

11/21/2007 5:07:30 PM

^ amusing tangent here, is the notable contributions to world cuisine:

French = wine
Swiss = cheese

American = potato chips






[Edited on November 21, 2007 at 7:52 PM. Reason : ]

11/21/2007 7:52:04 PM

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/americas/11/30/venezuela.protest/index.html

Quote :

" Chavez threatens to cut oil if U.S. questions vote President Hugo Chavez on Friday wrapped up his campaign to push through broad constitutional changes with a broadside attack against adversaries at home and abroad -- including a threat to cut off oil exports to the United States. Chavez told a crowd gathered in the center of Caracas that if the referendum was approved and the result was questioned -- "if the 'yes' vote wins on Sunday and the Venezuelan oligarchy, playing the [U.S.] empire's game, comes with their little stories of fraud" -- then he would order oil shipments to the United States halted Monday. Chavez spoke after tens of thousands, brought on buses from throughout the country, marched down the capital's principal boulevard to rally support for Sunday's referendum, which would free Chavez from term-limit restrictions and move the country toward institutionalized socialism. Friday's rally acted as a counterpoint to an opposition march down the same streets Thursday that brought out tens of thousands who fear the 69 constitutional changes would serve to undermine basic democratic freedoms. Chavez, 53, warmed the crowd up by serenading them with holiday "gaitas" and other traditional songs before turning his attention to a litany of enemies and perceived enemies: internal critics, the United States, Spain's King Juan Carlos, Colombia's President Alvaro Uribe and domestic and international media. "We're not really confronting those peons of imperialism," Chavez said, alluding to his Venezuelan opponents. "Our true enemy is called the North American empire, and ... we're going to give another knockout to Bush." He renewed his harsh criticisms of Juan Carlos and Uribe, with whom he has had recent high-profile disputes, and threatened to take independent Venezuela television network Globovision off the air if it broadcast partial results during the voting. He also threatened to take action against international networks, accusing CNN in particular of overstating the strength of the opposition's numbers. "If any international channel comes here to take part in an operation from the imperialist against Venezuela, your reporters will be thrown out of the country, they will not be able to work here," Chavez said. "People at CNN, listen carefully: This is just a warning." At stake in Sunday's vote is whether the leftist leader should have full authority over the now autonomous Central Bank and with it the nation's economic policy, changes Chavez has said he needs to move the economy further toward socialism. The most controversial amendment would do away with term limits, allowing Chavez, who has served almost eight years in power, to hold his post indefinitely as long as he is re-elected. advertisement Chavez, a former paratrooper, said the majority of the country's 26 million people back him. He has garnered overwhelming support from the country's poorer neighborhoods, who have benefited from his policies -- paid for by skyrocketing oil prices. Oil accounts for roughly 90 percent of the country's export earnings, according to the CIA World Factbook. Despite the animosity that Chavez routinely aims at the United States, the two countries remain closely tied economically -- the United States is Venezuela's biggest oil customer and one of the few countries that can refine its low-quality crude. Venezuela accounts for up to 15 percent of U.S. crude imports."

dumbass

[Edited on December 1, 2007 at 9:59 AM. Reason : .]

12/1/2007 9:58:53 AM

90% of their wealth comes from oil exports, which is too thick and sour for most countries besides the US to process. Meanwhile, only about 15% of our oil comes from them.

Gee, I wonder who would be hurt worse by cutting off trade?

That Chavez character is a real scholar. The US doesn't need to try to influence elections around there. Chavez is gonna bankrupt the country and run that economy into the ground in the next few years.

12/1/2007 3:16:43 PM

its too bad that Bush has alienated the US from a large majority of the world to such an extent that Chavez's blatant manipulation of Venezuela's political system is as effective as it is.

12/1/2007 11:33:27 PM

^

Quote :

"Venezuela's government is Venezuela's business, especially when their leader is legally and democratically elected."

joe_schmoe

Quote :

"CARACAS, Venezuela (AP) — Hugo Chavez could have a shot at becoming president for life if voters approve a sweeping overhaul of the constitution Sunday that would give him unchecked power to reshape Venezuela's government, economy and society."

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jZCtLwWdNPev59eWMM1OPL4WRXoQD8T77C501

Good call, schmoe.

12/2/2007 5:25:16 AM

sorry if I dont care a lot about alleged political corruption in venezuela.

the political corruption rife in the US govt. should be enough to keep us busy. its not like we need to be distracted from the problems in our own house to go play super-nanny cleaning up other countries mess--

oh... wait.







Brilliant thread by the way. much better than that old "Hey Chavez" thread.... and I do quite enjoy your transition to this new debate style of

bold
"quote"
link
snarky
roll

its much more subtle and refined than the old method.




[Edited on December 2, 2007 at 3:14 PM. Reason : ]

12/2/2007 3:10:36 PM

Quote :

"the political corruption rife in the US govt. should be enough to keep us busy. its not like we need to be distracted from the problems in our own house to go play super-nanny cleaning up other countries mess--"

good call.

I mean our gov't especially with the current neo-con administration running the show tries to be our nanny. Instilling morals and creating laws/regulations as favored by the evangelical Christian lobbyist groups. No surprise should it be we try to nanny other countries also. A favorable leader needs to be in charge of an oil rich country that way our corporate CEO buddies at home can get the favorable contracts.

12/2/2007 3:36:24 PM

Well, I don't know that you can make such a claim. As corrupt as the current U.S. administration really is, they are not trying to turn the U.S. into a totalitarian dictatorship akin to Cuba as Chavez is doing in Venezuela.

"When RCTV was ejected from the airwaves, its slot was taken over by yet another government-run propaganda channel in the mold of ViVe, a “public service” network that devoted significant airtime in the election run-up mocking opposition protestors and admonishing viewers to vote ‘Si!’ to the constitutional changes...Chavez has also echoed the revolutionary rhetoric of Daniel Ortega, smearing any and all opponents as a spies and fifth-columnists; agents of the “Empire” and enemies of the people. So when former Minister of Defense and Chavez confidant Gen. Raúl Isaías Baduel publically broke with the government, saying that the proposed changes to the constitution amounted to a soft coup d’état, his former boss unleashed his full fury, threatening those who run afoul of the revolution: "He who says he supports Chavez but votes 'no' is a traitor, a true traitor. He's against me, against the revolution and against the people." Such rhetorical thuggery is, alas, the least of the oppositions concerns; protests and gatherings are often met by armed members of local “Bolivarian Circles,” state sanction gangs charged with protecting the revolution and modeled on Cuba’s “Committee for the Defense of the Revolution” and Ortega’s “Turbas Divinas,” or “divine mobs.”"
http://www.reason.com/news/show/123712.html

So, when PBS starts telling people how they should vote or organized mobs start violently confronting the opposition, then you can say America is just as bad as Venezuela. Of course, the odd idea is that someone cannot criticize B because A is just as bad. So what? They did not address A, for all you know they are vehemently opposed to both A and B.

12/2/2007 4:00:29 PM

no one (especially not me) is saying US corruption == Venezuela.

im saying we've got enough issues to deal with in our own house than to go about playing sword-rattling games with Chavez.

if the UN does anything, they deal with this shit. let them.

12/2/2007 4:26:58 PM

We've been ignoring Chavez for a while now. His frequent claims of black helicopters circling Caracas and other such nonsense are a running joke in international politics.

Quote :

"its too bad that Bush has alienated the US from a large majority of the world to such an extent that Chavez's blatant manipulation of Venezuela's political system is as effective as it is."

Chavez is a "Populist", which is just another name for a fascist who preys on fears and ignorance of the poor. They will always find someone to vilify. If it wasn't Bush and the US then it would be Mexico or Europe or one of their South American neighbors.

12/2/2007 6:21:17 PM

And we have his clones pulling the same "constitutional reform" bullshit in Ecuador and Bolivia.

12/2/2007 6:29:04 PM

joe_schmoe, when you say 'we' you mean the U.S. Government?

In that case you are absolutely right, the current Administration should shut up and mind its own business.

But hooksaw holds no office. As such, in my opinion, he can lambast Chavez all he wants.

12/2/2007 6:53:36 PM

Didn't go through according to FoxNews.

(My roommate watches it )

12/3/2007 12:36:49 AM

Venezuela Hands Narrow Defeat to Chávez Plan (from 1 minute ago)

Quote :

"CARACAS, Venezuela, Monday, Dec. 3 —Voters in Venezuela defeated a contentious referendum that would have given President Hugo Chávez sweeping new powers, the Election Commission announced early Monday. The results were a stunning defeat for a leader who was trying to extend already broad powers and lead his country in a radical new direction. The commission said 50.7 percent voted against the referendum and 49.3 percent voted in favor. The results were all the more surprising given that Mr. Chávez and his supporters control nearly all of the levers of power. 'The result is quarrelsome,' Vice President Jorge Rodríguez said in comments broadcast on national television. Opposition leaders were more upbeat. 'Tonight, Venezuela has won,' said Manuel Rosales, governor of Zulia State and the opposition’s candidate in presidential elections last year. Through the night supporters and critics of the president pointed to exit polls in their favor, suggesting a disputed outcome. Electoral officials said complete official results could be released early Monday, after reports from polling stations around the country trickled in here."

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/03/world/americas/03venezuela.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin

Chavez, friend to left-wing movie stars, will probably declare martial law now.

12/3/2007 1:06:18 AM

Whoa, how does a dictator lose a major vote like that?

12/3/2007 1:29:11 AM

I should hurry to the gas station.

12/3/2007 2:34:18 AM

^^ You can thank the middle class.

12/3/2007 2:49:37 AM

i'm really impressed by this wannabe dictator's lack of tyranny

12/3/2007 2:52:42 AM

^ Killings, beatings, censorship of the media, threatening to cut off part of the US oil supply, meeting with other dictators against us, and so on not enough for you, huh?

12/3/2007 3:00:02 AM

Well, I guess the institutional Democracy Chavez inherited is still operating, at least to some extent. To be fair we must recognize Chavez's restraint when it came to ballot stuffing. Then again, maybe he did not think he needed to?

Either way, willingness to lose a vote does not undo all the damage he has done to the country.

[Edited on December 3, 2007 at 8:25 AM. Reason : .,.]

12/3/2007 8:23:24 AM

pretty neat how someone's getting brownie points for not defrauding the electorate

i guess it just shows how low of morals a liberal has that they would consider that to be laudable

12/3/2007 8:29:38 AM

Did they have a secret ballot? It's hard to intimidate people to vote a certain way when they know their vote can't be traced back to them.

Oh well. I suppose they'll try the vote again after they help about 1% more of the voters transition from the middle class to the poor.

Quote :

"I should hurry to the gas station."

12/3/2007 8:50:27 AM

I honestly do not give a fuck is Venezuela's leader decides to rule for LIFE. With the exception of an occasional human rights abuse; it seems like the people over there like him. If the Venezuelan population does not want him to rule anymore they should vote NO in the referendum. If then still if the election is rigged or they just get sick of him then it is their job to start the sectarian violence freedom fighting much like how Chavez came in charge originally.

Unless Chavez starts committing genocide; has missiles aiming at our doorstep; or is actively trying to destablize the governments of Latin America then I could care less and so should our gov't to what the fuck is going on over there. Really for the 1st and 3rd examples it should be a collaborative effort btw multiple countries since its a worldly issue and we should not have to be the world police.

Quote :

"Oh well. I suppose they'll try the vote again after they help about 1% more of the voters transition from the middle class to the poor."

I am really not to informed on the state of the economy of Venezuela but looking at Chavez's buddy Castro in Cuba; Castro actually improved the lives of the common Cuban citizen (modernized health care, access to education, etc). Not that i particularly like Castro but the despot that preceded him kept a lot of the Cuban population in a state of destitute.

If nothing else Iraq has clearly shown that democracy is not for everyone. Stupid uneducated fucks just turn into tools for whatever crafty influential leader wants to try to vie for power rather violent or peaceful.

[Edited on December 3, 2007 at 10:01 AM. Reason : aa]

12/3/2007 9:55:11 AM

btw latest national headlines...

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/americas/12/03/venezuela.referendum/index.html

Quote :

" Voters reject Chavez's referendum"

democracy prevails w/o US bitching or intervention.

good going for the Venezuelan population

[Edited on December 3, 2007 at 10:20 AM. Reason : a]

12/3/2007 10:20:28 AM

^^ Just "Wow."

12/3/2007 10:51:10 AM

And despite his rhetoric, he's acquiesced publicly. The only worrisome thing is that he kept saying "this time" indicating he will try again. Might see him not so conciliatory closer to the end of his term.

12/3/2007 10:53:00 AM

^ Indeed. At some point, I'm expecting martial law to be declared.

12/3/2007 11:01:01 AM

Quote :

"i guess it just shows how low of morals a liberal has that they would consider that to be laudable"

any chance for a jab, huh?

12/3/2007 2:48:31 PM