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hooksaw
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There are a number of issues that I have disagreed with President Bush about: spending, border enforcement, stem cell research, and so on. But I have agreed with him on more.

One scholar said this about Bush back in 2005:

Quote :
"'He'll take up more textbook space than Clinton or his dad, for better or worse,' said Fred Greenstein, a presidential scholar at Princeton University.

A combination of factors -- the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, the war in Iraq, the aging of the Supreme Court and the largest Republican majority in Congress in 70 years -- provides Bush a strong opportunity to act on his agenda and make a bolder mark on history than his predecessors."


http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2005/01/16/MNGVQARAF21.DTL

Now Bush is rebuilding relationships with some European countries; enjoying a little bit of "I told you so" in Iraq; presiding over a resilient economy--despite the doom-and-gloom crowd; and in a clear legacy-building effort, attempting to broker a Middle East peace deal. I think--if the liberal historians don't wildly skew the truth--Bush will be viewed as a mixed bag: some successes, some failures, but a president who served fairly well in one of the most difficult times in our nation's history.

What say you?

11/28/2007 2:24:22 PM

LunaK
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Rebuilding relationships because he's the one that screwed them up in the first place

Lost the Republican majority in Congress

Every president has tried at one time or another to broker a Mid East Peace deal

Do you think they'll mention the approximately 200 million dollar (and growing) deficit?

11/28/2007 2:28:17 PM

SkankinMonky
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Quote :
"European countries"


Despite helping usher in a new cold war with Russia.

Quote :
"enjoying a little bit of "I told you so" in Iraq"


Being able to say 'look, we're improving on the stuff we screwed up' is not going to cover up the fact that the war is widely unpopular and unjustified (as the majority of Americans believe).

Quote :
"presiding over a resilient economy"


Are you serious?



No doubt though, Bush is using his last year in office to try to make himself look better, I don't think it will work. He's already polarized the nation so much that any effort he makes will be overshadowed by the first 6.5 years of his administration. The worst thing that he's done to America is split it down the middle.

11/28/2007 2:31:07 PM

jocristian
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this is sure not to go well..

Quote :
"-Bush will be viewed as a mixed bag: some successes, some failures"


I would agree with this to a point. He was a galvanizing figure immediately after the 9/11 attack. I would consider that a success.

Otherwise his legacy will consist of a situation in the middle east where even if we do everything right from here out, we can never win; failed foreign relations on nearly every front; never having a balanced budget; failed initiatives like the NCLB program; and removing habeas corpus and other privacy rights in the interest of a false sense of safety.

11/28/2007 2:32:43 PM

JCASHFAN
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Quote :
"Despite helping usher in a new cold war with Russia."
No, that isn't really his fault. The Russians are fiercely proud and have been nursing their wounds from the fall they took in the 1990s. High oil prices combined with a strong and aggressive Putin have brought about a resurgent Russia who is willing to flex some muscle. Bush really didn't play much of a part here.


Quote :
"enjoying a little bit of "I told you so" in Iraq"
This has been discussed ad naseum in this forum. All that needs to be said is that he's lost a Secretary of State and a Secretary of Defense over this issue, all the people whose opinion he dismissed at the beginning of the war were proven right, and he has the lowest popularity since Nixon, largely over the war.


Quote :
"He was a galvanizing figure immediately after the 9/11 attack. I would consider that a success."
The President was a galvanizing figure. I'm pretty sure even Kerry could have been galvanized around on September 12th.


Quote :
"presiding over a resilient economy"
By some measures. By others, the purchasing power of the majority of Americans has declined under his watch. More importantly, the President has little to do with the economy, though he will share the credit or blame.

11/28/2007 2:38:39 PM

hooksaw
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^^^ Am I "serious" about a "resilient" US economy? Yes. I didn't indicate perfect, I indicated resilient. And concerning a "split" in America, they didn't come much more divisive than Bill Clinton.

Quote :
"Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke said on Thursday the U.S. economy has remained resilient [emphasis added] in the face of credit market strains but faces risks on both the growth and inflation fronts."


http://today.reuters.com/news/articleinvesting.aspx?type=bondsNews&storyID=2007-11-08T163428Z_01_N08571272_RTRIDST_0_USA-BERNANKE-UPDATE-2.XML

^^ I'm just waiting for someone to strike through "mixed" bag and interpolate "douche."

^ Yeah, that's why I indicated that Bush simply "presided" over the US economy.

[Edited on November 28, 2007 at 2:44 PM. Reason : .]

11/28/2007 2:41:16 PM

JCASHFAN
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Well, I do my best not to call people names in TSB and I'm pretty sure that I'm legally prohibited from calling the President a douchebag.

Bernake has to call the economy resilient. Any indication on his part of a lack in confidence in the economy could turn into a self-fulfilling prophecy.

11/28/2007 2:44:58 PM

hooksaw
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^ While what the Fed chair says and how he says it matters a lot, that's simply not the case.

Quote :
"'Financial market volatility and strains have persisted,' Bernanke told the congressional Joint Economic Committee. 'In addition, further sharp increases in crude oil prices have put renewed upward pressure on inflation and may impose further restraint on economic activity.'"


And much more cautionary and/or negative commentary from time to time.

11/28/2007 2:49:09 PM

Prawn Star
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He will undoubtedly go down in history as one of the worst Presidents in our history. Right up there with Nixon and Carter as the worst post-WWII President.

11/28/2007 2:56:50 PM

hooksaw
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^ I think some of that may happen in the next few decades. But I think as the decades roll on, Bush will be seen in a bit more favorable light. Hell, that almost always happens anyway--even with Nixon and Carter.

I'll call it the elder statesman effect.

11/28/2007 3:05:53 PM

IMStoned420
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I'd say Bush has accomplished a lot of what he set out to do. Unfortunately for the rest of the country, he's screwed a lot of us in doing it.

11/28/2007 3:09:47 PM

HUR
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Pros -Extended Daylight Savings Time
- Afghanistan needed to be dealt with.
- Finally busted out his veto pen to reject a bunch of pork in the democratic spending bill (ignoring of course; all the pork he let through during his republican led congress)
- At least he's not Cheney
- Trying to negotiate peace btw Palestinians and isrreal (although every president has for the last 60 years)
- Seems like a fun guy to drink beer with.
- Decreased taxes
- His daughters are a lot hotter then Chelsea

Cons - lied provided incorrect information to justify getting us involved with the boondoggle disaster / money blackhole aka Iraq
- Shitty diplomat
- Instead of social welfare or letting the free market take its course; he instead engaged in corporate welfare.
- HUGE budget deficit
- Scandals/Firings/Forced Resignation of various cabinet members (Gonzales DEA firings, Rumsfeld prison abuse scandal and fuckups in Iraq, ashcroft, karl rove CIA leak, Powell b.c of his distaste of Bush's actions)
- Cheney is his VP
- Blowing tax payer money by awarding Haliburton w/ defense contracts that has been plagued with mismanagement of funds.
- Soft on illegal immigration
- Blowing one of the largest approval ratings to having one of the lowest since Nixon within 5 years.
- Pissing off our allies in Europe (france, germany, russia. not the ones we give handouts too)
- Killing of 10000s of Iraqi civilians during his war for oil.
- Greatly expanding the role of gov't intrusion into americans private lives in the name of "national secuirty"
- The fascist patriot acts.
- Slow action while 10000's of people sat around homeless post-Katrina and N.O. was in anarchy.
- Possible voting scandals relating to the 2000 US election.
- Allowing the Puritanical beliefs of Evangelical Christian groups have too much influence on his domestic policy.


Quote :
"think some of that may happen in the next few decades. But I think as the decades roll on, Bush will be seen in a bit more favorable light. Hell, that almost always happens anyway--even with Nixon and Carter."


I think this will greatly depend on

a. how Iraq plays out in the long term
b. state of the economy post2008 election
c. if any scandals shake lose following his term

[Edited on November 28, 2007 at 3:17 PM. Reason : a]

[Edited on November 28, 2007 at 3:32 PM. Reason : aa]

11/28/2007 3:15:04 PM

IMStoned420
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^ Nailed it.

11/28/2007 3:19:48 PM

joe_schmoe
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Quote :
"presiding over a resilient economy"


"resilient economy" ... meaning the Euro and Pound have blown $US out of the water? hell, even the Canadian Loonie has caught up to us. theyll probably surpass us within a year.

actually "resilient" is a nice way of saying "somehow still resisting being flushed completely down the shitter"

11/28/2007 3:36:39 PM

hooksaw
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^
Quote :
"'Those who admire the nation that has built the world's greatest economy and has never ceased trying to persuade the world of the advantages of free trade expect her to be the first to promote fair exchange rates,' Sarkozy said in a speech to a joint session of Congress.

'The (Chinese) yuan is already everyone's problem. The dollar cannot remain solely the problem of others. If we're not careful, monetary disarray could morph into economic war. We would all be its victims,' Sarkozy said.

His comments came as the U.S. dollar dropped to a record low against the euro.

European businesses and some officials have complained that the euro's strength is threatening to undermine growth in the euro zone.

The United States has repeatedly expressed its support for a strong dollar, and has said currency values should be set in open, competitive markets. However, some analysts believe Washington has welcomed the dollar's decline, which is boosting U.S. exports at a time when a housing slump is weighing on economic growth [emphasis added]."


http://www.reuters.com/article/politicsNews/idUSWBT00788220071107

1. The falling dollar is everyone's problem.

2. Are you saying the fall is entirely a bad thing? To do so does not demonstrate a complete understanding of global trade.

11/28/2007 3:44:01 PM

HUR
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Actually i forgot to add to Bush's Pro column encouraging free trade.

I also do not see the failing dollar to be that much of a threat. Keeping other variable constant this will help correct our current trade deficit and bring $$$ back into our economy idealistically.

11/28/2007 3:47:59 PM

marko
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extension of daylight's savings was nice

11/28/2007 3:52:18 PM

IMStoned420
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Bush needs all the pros he can get.

11/28/2007 3:53:30 PM

wlb420
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biggest Pro:

some of the best sound bites and photo ops of any president evar.

My favorite is when he couldn't define sovereign, and just kept using the word to describe itself.

[Edited on November 28, 2007 at 3:57 PM. Reason : guess i need to learn to spell it before I talk shit ]

11/28/2007 3:56:10 PM

LunaK
LOSER :(
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he does look like a monkey... i like monkeys

11/28/2007 3:56:40 PM

Mr. Joshua
we want chilly willy
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He'll go down in history as the president that put a man on Mars.



































11/28/2007 3:57:02 PM

terpball
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hooksaw is a fucking idiot

11/28/2007 3:58:28 PM

LunaK
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would that go in the pro bush column or the con bush column?

11/28/2007 3:59:24 PM

hooksaw
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^^ GTFO, herpball.

[Edited on November 28, 2007 at 4:00 PM. Reason : .]

11/28/2007 4:00:26 PM

terpball
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hooksaw is a fucking idiot

11/28/2007 4:27:08 PM

eyedrb
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We wont know for awhile if the mistake that was Iraq turns out to be a blessing.

But when I think of Bush, with the repub majority I can only think of one phrase, "missed opportunity". He had a chance to right the ship and instead massive spending increases, no SS reform, no border, and my biggest head scratcher...the medicare drug plan. What a joke and disappointment he has been.

Pros, rallying the nation after 9/11. I will always remember his speech ontop of the rubble with the megaphone. Truely a great american moment. And I actually agree with his latest vetos and no federal funding for stem cell. Late term abortion ban(who would be against that shit?), and lowering taxes.

All in all, he still gives me a negative feeling when I think about him. Oh what could have been. He really wasted an opportunity to cut government. However, these latest republicans are only fiscally conservative it seems when a democrate is in the whitehouse.

11/28/2007 4:46:26 PM

HUR
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Quote :
"Pros, rallying the nation after 9/11. I will always remember his speech ontop of the rubble with the megaphone. Truely a great american moment. And I actually agree with his latest vetos and no federal funding for stem cell. Late term abortion ban(who would be against that shit?), and lowering taxes."


I have so much trouble figuring out the typical christian minded republican attitude. They have no problem sending soldiers to their potential deaths, blowing up innocent civilians abroad, cutting off gov't assistance to the poor. However, when it come to using a diploid clump of cells (zygote) created from two haploids (sperm and egg) for research to potentially cure life threatening diseases they make a huge fuss. Same goes for abortions (talking about the oh shit i'm pregnant now what should i do; not the 7 months later "i do not want to have this baby any more" people)

11/28/2007 5:29:26 PM

hooksaw
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^ Actually, I have trouble with the Republicans' stem cell position, too. I suppose they would argue intellectual consistency or a slippery slope to "harvesting" embryos--I'm not really sure. I hope that the recent discovery about converting skin cells will eventually render the traditional embryonic stem cell issue moot.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/21/AR2005082101180.html

And it may surprise some of you to hear me indicate that I do think Bush has been arrogant. Obviously, he is also inarticulate and probably intellectually lazy, but I do not think that he is unintelligent. Eventually, I believe that it will be confirmed that Bush is simply dyslexic, which would account for the overwhelming majority of his oral flubs.

[Edited on November 28, 2007 at 5:44 PM. Reason : .]

11/28/2007 5:43:38 PM

IMStoned420
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I don't think anyone can seriously call Bush stupid because of the simple fact that I don't think you can become that successful without being somewhat intelligent. He has shown some moments where he seemed like he knew what he was doing.

As for the stem cells. If the newest skin thing doesn't pan out, it's only a matter of time before something else that's ethically viable will.

11/28/2007 6:17:27 PM

Flyin Ryan
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Quote :
"What say you?"


The Republican Party will pay for his mistakes electorally and because of his actions we're looking at 8 years of Hillary Clinton as President.

11/28/2007 6:26:36 PM

joe_schmoe
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ive always thought that GWB's strategy to feign an un-intellectual, "down-home" folksy simplicity was pure fucking genius. it disarms his opponents into "misunderestimating" him.

he might truly have some language/vocabulary issues, but the man is obviously an intelligent and shrewd politician.

unfortunately he's blinded by an arrogant self-importance and delusions of personal religious significance that allows himself to be played by a number of people in his "trusted" circle who are equally intelligent and shrewd (if not moreso) yet unencumbered by moral constraints.

11/28/2007 6:33:44 PM

Sputter
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Quote :
""resilient economy" ... meaning the Euro and Pound have blown $US out of the water? hell, even the Canadian Loonie has caught up to us. theyll probably surpass us within a year.
"



if you weren't complaining about this you would be complaining about the trade deficit increasing.

11/28/2007 7:37:19 PM

eyedrb
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HUR, I applaud the LATE term abortion ban. That is a horrible practice of which im not sure how anyone can support it. If you cant make up your mind by that time, give it up for adoption. If you have ever seen this practice you would feel different. I am prochoice, but not for using abortion as pure birth control. Someone on thier 3rd abortion needs to have thier tubes tied, imo. Anyone can make a mistake. The morning after pill seems like a no brainer solution. Just have it go OTC in my opinion.

Look, I think stem cell research is the next great medical breakthrough. What I oppose is the govt spending federal money when so many are oppossed to it morally, and the private sector is doing just fine with it. Im confused. You guys complain about the govt giving money to companies in one breathe, then want them to give it to drug companies in the next? Then you bitch about high cost of drugs. WHy? because the private sector is researching new drugs, why? TO MAKE MONEY. Take away that incentive, well you have less people working on it. Imagine the money on a drug to cure cancer? Other than that, I dont think a woman should profit from donating her aborted fetus to research, which would be a lawsuit away from happening..and you know it.

11/28/2007 8:17:44 PM

HUR
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Quote :
"hat is a horrible practice of which im not sure how anyone can support it. If you cant make up your mind by that time, give it up for adoption"


That is my philosophy exactly. The only hard part is where do you draw the line.

11/28/2007 8:42:14 PM

capncrunch
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George Bush: Great president, or greatest president?

11/28/2007 11:45:56 PM

SandSanta
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Oil is at record highs over uncertainty in the Middle East.

The subprime fiasco has rocked the banking sector and created a twitchy environment on Wall St.

The housing market is continuing to correct itself and in turn putting a damper on Consumer Confidence

Which by the way is dropping

The debt carried by average Americans is the largest its ever been

The debt carried by the Federal Government is the largest its ever been

A certain interest rate drop will weaken the US dollar even more, which as LoneSnark loves to say "makes American goods sell better [which makes one question what exactly is still Made in America] but will have the unfortunate side effect of having foreign companies selling goods here in the US eat the currency difference. They will eventually be forced to raise prices and being that we import a vast number of goods, this could have increase inflation and hamper any further rate cuts and limiting the Feds primary method of nurturing a positive credit environment...

...at a time when credit is drying up.


So no, the economy isn't peachy and while its not going to collapse, it won't be a positive footnote in President Bush's legacy.

In fact, President Bush will go down as one of the most misguided Presidents in American history since Herbert Hoover.

Difference being, Herbert Hoover was an intelligent man.

11/29/2007 12:23:23 AM

HUR
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yeah the economy is looking pretty Fubar. Good thing i picked a good major unless a ESD bomb destroys the world electronics; someone will always have need for an EE

11/29/2007 12:26:20 AM

eyedrb
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a further rate cut is beyond ridiculous.

11/29/2007 12:29:38 AM

IMStoned420
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Anyone know the last time a president had 2 recessions while he was in office? Granted, the first one wasn't really his fault. But damn, that's still not something I would want on my record.

11/29/2007 2:35:37 AM

moron
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^^^ In that situation, i'd imagine we'd have an even greater need for an EE.

Plus, military tech is often hardened against that type of attack, so at the very least, the military would still be running.

11/29/2007 2:49:09 AM

drunknloaded
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^^^wholeheartedly agree

11/29/2007 3:45:40 AM

hooksaw
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Dow closes up 300-plus as stocks extend rally
Hopes for lower interest rates outweigh economic concern


Quote :
"NEW YORK - Wall Street barreled higher Wednesday for the second day in a row, giving the Dow Jones industrial average its biggest two-day point gain in five years after a Federal Reserve official hinted that the central bank may lower interest rates again [emphasis added].

Investors’ renewed hopes for a rate cut added to their relief that companies that made losing bets on subprime mortgages, such as Citigroup Inc. and Freddie Mac, are coming up with ways to raise cash. The market was clearly optimistic that at least some of the damage from the months-long credit crisis was finally being mitigated."


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3683270/

Like I've indicated many times, ours is a resilient economy. But I digress--Bush does not control the economy. Credit or blame, though, right?

BTW, please don't offer a lecture about how a two-day rally doesn't equate to a booming economy--I said nothing of the sort. I am, however, trying to identify the vanguard of trends, and the market is clearly bullish right now.

11/29/2007 4:07:33 AM

BobbyDigital
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A 2 day rally also doesn't equate to the market being "clearly bullish" right now either.

It's just a classic "buy on rumor, sell on news" situation. If the fed lowers interest rates again, we'll probably see a small dip due to profit taking, and if they do not lower interest rates, the market will drop substantially.

11/29/2007 8:26:29 AM

HockeyRoman
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Call me cynical but this last attempt at Middle East peace between Israel and Palestine seems like a last ditch effort by Bush in the twilight of his presidency to make this his legacy. He already blew the other chances that he had. Invading Afghanistan after 9/11 would have done that had he actually achieved "Mission Accomplished" by capturing those responsible for the attack. But instead the a.d.d. kicked in and he used the war hype and the bloodlust to invade a country that was an immediate threat to no one and was never a threat to the U.S. So Iraq is in shambles and even if you subscribe to the kool-aid pouring from Faux News and Rush Pillpopper then it is obvious that the objectives of this war (which were never truly outlined aside from paltry excuses) were not met in any kind of time frame reflective of the world's only super power if they were met at all.

I also disagree that Bush & Co. will simply get a pat on the head in future history books due to being "an elder statesmen". There have been numerable presidents whom history was not forgiving to just because they got old. If anyone actually remembers why Andrew Johnson was impeached then they would know it was under tenuous circumstances and was simply a political ploy by his rivals. Instead he shares the scare of being only one of two presidents to be "formally accused" of wrongdoing. And surely there must be something absolutely dreadful about someone if they have a presidential trait in common with Bill Clinton, right? And what about Taft? Big ol' Tubby Taft got himself stuck in a bathtub. Never mind the fact that he is the only president to go on to being on the supreme court to which he was much more comfortable and effective. Nope, his legacy is that he was a fatass.

One can only hope that Bush and his philosophy go the way of his former counterpart in Australia.

11/29/2007 9:40:46 AM

HUR
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Quote :
"Andrew Johnson was impeached then they would know it was under tenuous circumstances and was simply a political ploy by his rivals. Instead he shares the scare of being only one of two presidents to be "formally accused" of wrongdoing. And surely there must be something absolutely dreadful about someone if they have a presidential trait in common with Bill Clinton,"


omg andrew johnson got impeached for receiving oral pleasure also?? Screw dealing with domestic and foreign issues we gotta investigate and spend $millions to uncover the presidents sex life exposing how he ruins the sanctity of marriage which will cause the downfall of america

11/29/2007 9:55:28 AM

HockeyRoman
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Sadly, there are those whom believe that is a worthwhile effort.

11/29/2007 10:02:32 AM

hooksaw
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^^^ Concerning Middle East peace talks, Bill Clinton did the same thing in the last few months of his presidency. Did you object to that? Thought not.

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L25220170.htm

And I was simply responding to examples presented by Prawn Star of two modern-day presidents: Carter and Nixon. Both of whom faired pretty well in their post-presidency years--and Nixon was forced to resign, for God's sake!

Hell, Nixon was even considered for the job of general counsel to MLB.

Quote :
"His legacy was creating a strong association with remarkable solidarity out of a constituency that at first had next to no history of union activism with a sizeable portion of players to whom such activity was considered subversive. To appease that element, the players thought of offering Richard Nixon, then a private citizen, the job of general counsel."


http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20070220&content_id=1808692&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb

Even though he presided over the Iran hostage crisis and the some of the worst economic and energy crises in our nation's history, after he left office, Carter enjoyed a reputation as an earnest philanthropist, a human and voters' rights advocate, and a special envoy, among other endeavors. Recently, though, he has screwed it up with various off-the-rails comments.

Bush will enjoy much the same "elder statesman" status as Carter and Nixon did. And let's face it, a lot of these presidents--if not all--are more popular when they're out of office.

[Edited on November 29, 2007 at 4:36 PM. Reason : .]

11/29/2007 4:31:51 PM

Flyin Ryan
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Quote :
"BTW, please don't offer a lecture about how a two-day rally doesn't equate to a booming economy--I said nothing of the sort. I am, however, trying to identify the vanguard of trends, and the market is clearly bullish right now."


Then throw your money in and buy.

11/29/2007 4:35:42 PM

hooksaw
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^ One doesn't have to invest in milk to recognize milk. And read that quotation again.

11/29/2007 4:38:38 PM

SandSanta
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That doesn't even make sense.

11/29/2007 4:47:14 PM

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