so i'm considering going to a town hall meeting on the effects of the global economy on the US, particularly in manufacturing. can somebody who's paid more attention to this subject give me the arguments from both sides on why manufacturing jobs leaving the US is a good or bad thing. seems to me that letting other countries do it for cheaper motivates people in the US to find better jobs instead. now i know it's not that easy for a single person to transition from manufacturing to being a doctor or something, but overall that's the idea, right? what about statistics as far as how much of the US GDP comes from different sectors of the economy, and how those ratios have changed over the last 100+ years throughout other economic transitions. for example, how did the US handle the transition from mostly farming jobs to what it is today?

12/10/2007 11:32:53 PM

manufacture workers in the US want more money and provide less skills.

[Edited on December 10, 2007 at 11:34 PM. Reason : .]

12/10/2007 11:34:18 PM

you know, i'm pretty sure you're allowed to do manufacturing, RIGHT NOW

set up shop, make some shit, and sell it

and make sure it's all legal... or not, whatever

12/10/2007 11:50:29 PM

Here are some thoughts on what's still made in the United States. Manufacturing is still alive and well in the United States regarding the aerospace industry. On the commercial side, Boeing is in a dualopoly with the European Airbus for the largest and most lucrative commercial airplanes. There is a trend moving away from traditional manufacturing toward "systems integration" where the companies design the parts, get other companies to build them, then bolt the final pieces back together, but that trend may be slowing down. While commercial aerospace is a small segment of the economy, it's probably one of the larger contributors to American exports, its 407 aircraft deliveries for this year being worth around $44 billion. When you consider the massive network of suppliers that provide parts, ranging from GE and Pratt & Whitney for engines, Goodrich for landing gear, Honeywell for avionics, etc., you can see that this is still a thriving business.

It is true that aerospace doesn't support nearly the number of jobs it used to in part because of the increased cost of aircraft (and thus reduced numbers of planes), improved manufacturing efficiencies, and cutbacks following the Cold War, but to say it no longer is a part of the American manufacturing base is incorrect. Few nations are even close to matching either Boeing or Airbus (not just because of superior manufacturing but because of the comprehensive logistics support that each provides), the Japanese for example have tried numerous times to break into the market but failed miserably. Given the complexities, the high level of sophistication in production techniques, and technological sensitivities, these jobs are probably not going anywhere in the near future. I would keep this sector in mind if you're looking for one of the brighter areas of American manufacturing.

This doesn't even include the military portion which is another massive segment populated in the US by Boeing, Lockheed Martin, and Northrop Grumman.

The other big manufacturing segment one traditionally thinks about, the auto sector, is failing more because of self-inflicted wounds. Globalization has sped their decline, but it was their own poor strategy, design, and hubris that made them vulnerable to begin with.

12/11/2007 12:52:06 PM

well, part of the discussion is the different types of manufacturing. some require more highly skilled workers, are more profitable, increase American exports, etc. those seem to be good for the US so yeah, let's try to keep those jobs here. but guys driving forklifts around a warehouse or doing metals or plastics molding, i'm not sure why those types of jobs are worth fussing over. unless you're the guy out of a job, i can understand that. but for the US as a whole, is it such a big loss?

12/11/2007 8:06:54 PM

I think we should have a strong manufacturing base in the US, esp for basic needs. The problems I see are mostly unions forcing these companies overseas. Its no wonder they move alot of operations overseas not only for the cheap labor but to get away from union thugs.

The goodyear plant here was on strike last year. High school grads coudl work hard and earn 30/hr. They wanted more money and complained about goodyear wanting them to pay 20bucks a month for thier FAMILY health insurance. No dice. However, at the same time I was defending goodyear as they were trying to lay off and move overseas some factories, they gave some asshole exec a multimillion dollar bonus... so I guess they are all dicks, just some wear a suit.

12/11/2007 10:21:42 PM

bttt

12/12/2007 11:25:40 AM

^^How can you possibly blame unions? The loss of manufacturing jobs did not start until the unions started to lose power.

12/12/2007 11:59:16 AM

^ $30/hr vs $10/day

The global market and our demand for cheap products have killed companies esp ones with hefty union contracts. Some airlines went bankrupt to get out of their union contracts to stay solvent. Most just move overseas to avoid them. If they try to lower thier wages, they strike and bully people who "cross the line".

IMO, there was a time when unions were necessary. I think that time has passed. We now have laws that govern work conditions and OSHA. Now they just oppose the free market and inflate thier wages out of standards that force businesses to seek alternatives.

[Edited on December 12, 2007 at 12:11 PM. Reason : .]

12/12/2007 12:10:34 PM

you still refuse to answer the major issue, manufacturing jobs only disappeared with the decline of unions, not the other way around. As for the airline industry, deregulation fucked that industry.

12/12/2007 12:19:47 PM

^globalization fucked our manufacturing jobs. When companies were paying high school grads 40bucks an hour to drive a fork lift and there wasnt competition everything was ok. Then came in the cheap goods overseas. So you could buy a microwave for 150 bucks or 50 bucks. Then the companies jsut couldnt compete with the new price target and thier labor costs. Do you disagree with that?

12/12/2007 12:37:46 PM

anybody see that new Colbert Report last night? me neither cause the union is on strike...thanks a lot, unions

12/12/2007 12:44:03 PM

Quote :

"How can you possibly blame unions? The loss of manufacturing jobs did not start until the unions started to lose power."

One of the cases I regularly hear is that unions screwed their employers because of their staunch opposition to advanced automation and other technologies that would have improved productivity and efficiency. While these made sense in the short run for protecting a handful of jobs, it made the plants they worked at so inefficient over time that the corporations decided it would simply be better to pack up and move shop overseas rather than try to modernize at home.

This is particularly applicable to auto manufacturing, a subset of manufacturing jobs that are still very common in industrialized nations. You have nations like Japan who were able to improve efficiency, and combined with better designs, were able to sell vehicles more profitably in the United States.

I think other things screwed over other sections of the manufacturing sector, and poorly implemented free trade was one of the things that hurt the most. It should have been that we'd shed lower skilled manufacturing jobs for more manufacturing of sophisticated products, but we screwed that one up. Again, I think of the auto industry as a good example: piss poor engineering combined with weak efficiency.

12/12/2007 2:44:02 PM

unions dont try to make sure the best most qualified people for the job get the job

sounds like a fundamenal problem with unions

12/12/2007 2:55:26 PM

from http://www.americanmanufacturing.org/inyourstate/

Quote :

"North Carolina Manufacturing jobs lost from 2000-2007: 211,600 Manufacturing accounts for $67.2 billion of the state’s GSP, the number 1 contributor to the state’s economy. 77,200 jobs lost, 2001-2006 (all sectors), as a result of the trade deficit with China, equaling 2.0% of the total state employment in 2001."

now i don't know how accurate these numbers are or where they come from, but that sounds pretty alarming and something we would want to protect. any truth in this?

12/12/2007 4:00:59 PM

Quote :

"unions dont try to make sure the best most qualified people for the job get the job sounds like a fundamenal problem with unions"

then what is the apprenticeship program for, dumbass?

12/12/2007 4:29:02 PM

There is too much disinformation in this thread to wade through.

12/12/2007 4:32:26 PM

there's 16 posts. get over yourself.

12/12/2007 4:39:51 PM

^^^if you're building a house...would you rather be able to get bids from certain general contractors, and individual subcontractors, look over them, and decide which builder you want to use based on price, value, and whatever else you choose? or do you want to only be able to use certain contractors...cause thats what unions do except the house is now the economy in areas of the country where unions thrive

yeah its one thing to have job security...thats gotta be great...you can do a shitty job and cant get fired...yeah sounds like the type of economy i'd want to work in

12/12/2007 4:49:21 PM

Quote :

"yeah its one thing to have job security...thats gotta be great...you can do a shitty job and cant get fired...yeah sounds like the type of economy i'd want to work in"

sounds like a government job

12/12/2007 4:51:48 PM

My first experience with a union was when I was a boy. My family is from around pittsburgh, pa and I grew up in the south(not alot of unions). My mother and I would go see my grandmother during the summer. So we went to a red lobster that was just built, had to cross people picketting because it was built with no union labor. they were yelling at us for going to eat at this place. I was scared as a kid. I remember watching through the window as we were eating our meal and dreading going back out.

Next summer when we came up, the red lobster had burnt down. Union justice I guess.

12/12/2007 4:55:01 PM

Quote :

"from http://www.americanmanufacturing.org/inyourstate/ [quote]North Carolina Manufacturing jobs lost from 2000-2007: 211,600 Manufacturing accounts for $67.2 billion of the state’s GSP, the number 1 contributor to the state’s economy. 77,200 jobs lost, 2001-2006 (all sectors), as a result of the trade deficit with China, equaling 2.0% of the total state employment in 2001."

now i don't know how accurate these numbers are or where they come from, but that sounds pretty alarming and something we would want to protect. any truth in this?[/quote]

most of this was part of that mini recession during that time period

12/12/2007 6:06:23 PM

Manufacturing is the only industry that truly CREATES wealth for a nation. The rest just reallocate. If we do not maintain a somewhat respectable manufacturing base, we will be in trouble down the road.

12/13/2007 12:25:13 AM

Quote :

" but that sounds pretty alarming and something we would want to protect."

If by protect, you mean becoming more efficient, coming up with new products, finding new niches, sure.


If you mean corporate welfare, social welfare, trade barriers, scapegoating mexicans, and scapegoating chinese, absolutely not.

12/13/2007 12:48:46 AM

Quote :

"sounds like a government job"

Yeah, no shit. Public employee unions anyone?

I love having my tax dollars pay for advertisements and lobbying efforts designed to give government workers raises and more job security.

Out in California, the Nurses Union and Prison Guards Union in particular have wield ridiculous power in state politics.

12/13/2007 1:08:16 AM

Quote :

"Manufacturing is the only industry that truly CREATES wealth for a nation. The rest just reallocate. If we do not maintain a somewhat respectable manufacturing base, we will be in trouble down the road."

Oh, bollocks. You keep believing that, and I'll invest in AAPL and watch the stock grow another 1800% in five years. As the box says: Designed by Apple in California.

Anyway, this is an area I know something about. The enemy of manufacturing "jobs" isn't globalization, it's automation. Everywhere, in the most profound and fundamental ways. Mark my words -- if a US car maker could produce cars with no human involvement and with genius designers, China's cheap labor wouldn't keep manufacturing there.

It's called progress. Let's all get with the program. The manufacturing sector does indeed get outsourced, but even overseas those jobs aren't secure because there is an inevitable march towards newer and better technology. The level of automation in production now is so incredible, it's hard to believe globalization is even on the table for discussion.

In this context, complaining about manufacturing jobs "going away" is like complaining that we don't do more farming by manual labor. What about all those manual farm-hand jobs that were eradicated!? And what the heck, let's all start going to the local blacksmith for our metal-working needs while we're at it. That would create jobs!

12/13/2007 1:19:29 AM

I saw a video clip yesterday with Warren Buffet commenting that the many manufacturing jobs that moved from the USA to China are now moving to Vietnam because the labor is even cheaper there.

Made me chuckle.

12/13/2007 5:23:15 AM

^^Hey, I got Apple stock too, but unfortunately I didn't buy mine 5 years ago.

12/13/2007 11:19:06 PM

Quote :

"How does China make an extra 150,000 tons of steel? Here are two good questions: How did China shift from being a net importer of steel to the world's largest steel exporter in the span of only two years? Just what exactly could account for an extra 150,000 tons of steel production in just two short years? AAM released a report today that may uncover the answer. China's central and provincial governments have been boosting the country's steel production with massive, hidden energy subsidies that include supports for thermal and coking coal, electricity, and natural gas. The report was authored by longtime Asia business expert Dr. Usha Haley of the University of New Haven. Dr. Haley said that the "shift from a net importer to the largest exporter in a span of only two or three years is staggering. It shows that energy subsidies have a very strong correlation with Chinese steel exports." As AAM's Scott Paul noted, these kinds of subsidies are "typical of China's brazen subsidization as well as illegal practices like currency manipulation." China shipped 5.4 million tons of steel to the U.S. in 2006-- more than double the amount in 2005. No doubt, these subsidies have had a strong effect on China's production. We hope that this report might prompt Congress and the Administration to act before more American manufacturing jobs are lost."

so i just got this email, can somebody explain why they are complaining about chinese manufacturing subsidies? the US subsidies industries all the time. i don't see the big deal or how this isn't playing fair

1/8/2008 3:24:08 PM

Quote :

"High school grads coudl work hard and earn 30/hr. They wanted more money and complained about goodyear wanting them to pay 20bucks a month for thier FAMILY health insurance. No dice"

$30/hr for a fucking blue collar manufacturing job is bullshit. no wonder companies are going overseas.

1/8/2008 3:31:18 PM

Quote :

"$30/hr for a fucking blue collar manufacturing job is bullshit. no wonder companies are going overseas."

Make me sad for our country.

1/8/2008 4:04:26 PM

$30/hr = $60,000/year

1/8/2008 4:05:49 PM

^yeah. Its hard work from what I hear. THey cant keep people bc younger workers are drawn to the pay but rarely last a week on the job. Its sad.

Whats even worse is that they are again talking of striking. Bunch of idiots. The last time they went on strike their "leader" got on the news and asked the creditors to not collect until the strike was over. haha, what a joke. You WALK AWAY from a paying job and expect the people you owe money to to not be paid. There head is so far up thier asses, it will take that 9bucks an hour culture shock for reality to set in.

They dont start at 30/hr. but there are plenty that make that and more there.

[Edited on January 8, 2008 at 4:22 PM. Reason : .]

1/8/2008 4:21:49 PM

This graph is important to keeping everything in perspective:

1/9/2008 12:19:05 AM