http://www.local6.com/news/14857286/detail.html

Maybe we are too stupid to care for ourselves anymore. This is the inevitable result of needing a law or policy written in stone for everything instead of allowing people to think for themselves and make decisions for themselves. While we're busy teaching our kids to wave plastic made in china american flags and paint swastikas over pictures of the president, we're completely forgetting to teach them to think at all.

12/15/2007 7:28:25 PM

Tolerance

12/15/2007 7:43:35 PM

This thread is definitely not zero lollerance.

12/15/2007 7:48:54 PM

Does the school ban forks, as well? Or do they make everyone eat with plastic utensils?


Waaaay overboard, you're right

12/15/2007 7:49:52 PM

Is Marion County the same one that sentenced the boy that was hooking up with his girlfriend to like 20 years or something?

12/15/2007 7:54:48 PM

I think it's great that elementary schools and airlines share a common security code.

12/15/2007 7:59:37 PM

Well, to hear the neocons tell it, if they are muslim then they probably want to blow us up, and you never really know how young is too young for 72 virgins in paradise.

12/15/2007 8:03:55 PM

listen. one day it's food. the next day it's paper. then the next day it's a student. you can't take chances with these kinds of things

12/15/2007 8:16:07 PM

This is fucking retarted and the exact reason i am not sending my kids to public school.

My high school tried to expel me for having a laser pointer b.c "it resembles a laser pointer on an assault rifle" luckily my mom is friends with the super intendent and put the retarted intern principal in her place.

What I want to know is if it was a butter knife or a 4" fillet knife. If the latter i might understand if the former then that is even worse. The scissors teachers have laying on their desk is more dangerous.

[Edited on December 15, 2007 at 9:28 PM. Reason : a]

12/15/2007 9:27:21 PM

This is what happens when you allow ignorance and hysteria to dictate policies and rules, instead of common sense and rationality.

12/15/2007 9:54:21 PM

Zero Tolerance = Zero Thinking

12/15/2007 11:01:38 PM

the article does not contain enough information to make a judgement on this situation. Not surprising, really, coming from a local news affiliate. the most incomplete data is, of course, what exactly this knife was. There is a big difference if she was carrying her dad's hunting bowie knife, or had a 5" locking blade knife, or a swtichblade, or if it actually was just a steak knife, as the article says it was.

When I was in elementary school in the 80's, students were not allowed to bring knives to school. Period. I did have friends who would regularly carry knives with them, but really just to "be cool" or whatever, just for show. I went though a phase also where I carried a 5" locking blade knife with me everywhere. Had I been caught with it, I would have expected to be in deep shit. No, the cops wouldn't have come and I wouldn't have been arrested, but 20 years later, I guess this is how schools deal with their problems so they can try to avoid any liability.....

12/15/2007 11:28:13 PM

The article indicates it's a steak knife:

Quote :

"According to authorities, school employees spotted the girl cutting her food while she was eating lunch and took the steak knife from her."

How many bowie knives and switchblades do you know of that double as steak knives? We can question the accuracy of the report all we want, but it seems to me that a steak knife is a somewhat more specific type of knife.

This local story confirms, says she was in fact cutting her steak with it:

http://www.ocala.com/article/20071215/NEWS/212150347/1001/NEWS01

(Also, what public schools actually serve steak?)

[Edited on December 15, 2007 at 11:49 PM. Reason : .]

12/15/2007 11:45:55 PM

Quote :

"I guess this is how schools deal with their problems so they can try to avoid any liability"

That's exactly what's going on these days. In today's world of "sue first and ask questions later," people simply don't want to catch legal flak for anything. If the school doesn't completely condemn students for bringing anything remotely dangerous, there's a lawyer out there somewhere who will spin things to make the school look liable whenever shit inevitably goes down. And considering the levels of compensation that "victims" feel entitled to these days, a single lawsuit could mean that the school will be shut down and careers will be destroyed. It's easier in the long run for schools to simply make exaggerated knee-jerk reactions to any situation, no matter how insignificant it is. This doesn't change the fact that it's all completely retarded, but it's a sad truth in today's life.

[Edited on December 15, 2007 at 11:51 PM. Reason : blah]

12/15/2007 11:49:49 PM

^^ yeah, i know that's what the article says.
If it's true, and it's a normal serrated steak knife that you would find in any kitchen, then yes - this is obviously a poor application of this law.

However, I was questioning the validity and accuracy of the reporting. It says she was "charged with possession of a weapon". Most of us wouldn't consider a steak knife a weapon. So the question is this - was the administration and police being overzealous when they classified a steak knife as a weapon, or did she actually have a type of knife that would be considered a weapon (even though she was not using it as such) and there was just poor communication or sloppy reporting on what kind of knife it was. Overall, my point is you can't make huge rushes to judgement based on a 6-sentence fluff piece written by a local news station.

[Edited on December 15, 2007 at 11:55 PM. Reason : .]

12/15/2007 11:55:16 PM

Right, but that's the reason I sought out a second, independent story, as you saw above. Two sources say it was a steak knife. Now, this could be information bias - i.e., both of their accounts being based upon flawed information - but we now have two independent sources reporting the same information.

12/16/2007 12:01:19 AM

Quote :

"My high school tried to expel me for having a laser pointer b.c "it resembles a laser pointer on an assault rifle" luckily my mom is friends with the super intendent and put the retarted intern principal in her place."

If I ran a high school I would expel people with laser pointers because laser pointers are fucking annoying.

12/16/2007 1:03:20 AM

should she have been arrested? no

should she be punished by the school? absolutely

12/16/2007 1:25:12 AM

Somehow, I managed to grow up around knives without ever stabbing anyone. I may have pulled out a kitchen knife and threatened violence against my parents once or twice, but it never amounted to much.

I don't have a problem with kids having access to knives. The knife is a common and versatile tool. Kids should learn to act responsibly around knives, not be preventing from using them.

12/16/2007 1:39:11 AM

Quote :

"agentlion: ^^ yeah, i know that's what the article says. If it's true, and it's a normal serrated steak knife that you would find in any kitchen, then yes - this is obviously a poor application of this law. However, I was questioning the validity and accuracy of the reporting. It says she was "charged with possession of a weapon". Most of us wouldn't consider a steak knife a weapon. So the question is this - was the administration and police being overzealous when they classified a steak knife as a weapon, or did she actually have a type of knife that would be considered a weapon (even though she was not using it as such) and there was just poor communication or sloppy reporting on what kind of knife it was. Overall, my point is you can't make huge rushes to judgement based on a 6-sentence fluff piece written by a local news station."

It was most likely a regular, old steak knife, and steak knives can be used as weapons so it's no surprise that she was "charged with possession of a weapon." I've read about this happening at other schools, as well.

It's not news that this type of thing happens and that it's ridiculous.

But it's pretty easy to see why they have the rule like they do--it's simple and easy to enforce. And it's also pretty easy not to pack a steak knife in your kid's lunch. Cut up the steak before you send your kid to school with it. If there's some concern about destroying the integrity of the steak by cutting it early, then teach your kid to cut it with a plastic knife.

^Knife skills and safety are possibly valuable lessons to teach children, but I'd prefer not to have children bring knives to school. It seems really irresponsible. I'm looking deeper to see if there's any good that could come of letting kids have knives on school property...but yeah, I got nothing...that's pretty much irresponsible all around.

[Edited on December 16, 2007 at 4:45 AM. Reason : sss]

12/16/2007 4:38:22 AM

sure wish we could edit titles.

12/16/2007 8:41:01 AM

From the second article someone posted:

Quote :

"Earlier in the month, a 6-year-old kindergarten student was suspended from East Marion Elementary School after claiming to put a bomb in a classmate's backpack."

Is a six-year-old even capable of understanding such a punishment?

12/16/2007 10:14:27 AM

^^ It's one thing to have a general school policy against kids having knives, and up to a certain age, it makes sense, but it's an entirely different thing to arrest and charge a 10 year old with a felony because they had a steak knife with which to cut their steak.

12/16/2007 11:11:13 AM

our schools suck

12/16/2007 11:14:07 AM

Quote :

"I'm looking deeper to see if there's any good that could come of letting kids have knives on school property...but yeah, I got nothing...that's pretty much irresponsible all around."

I'm pretty irresponsible guy. Freedom's what you're looking for, though. And no, it shouldn't be only for adults.

12/16/2007 12:11:46 PM

Quote :

"BridgetSPK: It was most likely a regular, old steak knife, and steak knives can be used as weapons so it's no surprise that she was "charged with possession of a weapon." I've read about this happening at other schools, as well. It's not news that this type of thing happens and that it's ridiculous. But it's pretty easy to see why they have the rule like they do--it's simple and easy to enforce. And it's also pretty easy not to pack a steak knife in your kid's lunch. Cut up the steak before you send your kid to school with it. If there's some concern about destroying the integrity of the steak by cutting it early, then teach your kid to cut it with a plastic knife."

Because it would be impossible to expect school officials to actually demonstrate discretion or that "critical thinking" skill they try to instill upon children in this case. Quick, she's got a knife!



[Edited on December 16, 2007 at 12:39 PM. Reason : .]

12/16/2007 12:38:32 PM

^Don't roll your eyes at me, bitch.

I said it was ridiculous that they arrested her.

But, in the grand scheme of things, the fact that some mom thought the rules didn't apply to her kid and now her kid has caught some ridiculous charges (that are going to be thrown out) doesn't really concern me.

If some kid stabs another kid in the cafeteria with a steak knife he took from someone who was cutting his food, the school system can now say they don't tolerate knives in lunches and that, in fact, they had a girl arrested for it. They can protect themselves from a lawsuit (and they can protect the public from having to pay for it).

It's harder for school officials to exercise discretion in the public eye than it is for kids not to bring steak knives to school.

12/16/2007 3:58:30 PM

Quote :

"^Don't roll your eyes at me, bitch."

Que irony! You calling anyone in here a bitch - it's delicious!

Quote :

"But, in the grand scheme of things, the fact that some mom thought the rules didn't apply to her kid and now her kid has caught some ridiculous charges (that are going to be thrown out) doesn't really concern me."

I don't think anyone actually said - the mother included - that the rules shouldn't apply at all. In fact, go ahead. Find us where anyone said that. Really, do it. It will please me. (I'm going to go out on a limb and guess you won't, though.)

Quote :

"If some kid stabs another kid in the cafeteria with a steak knife he took from someone who was cutting his food, the school system can now say they don't tolerate knives in lunches and that, in fact, they had a girl arrested for it. They can protect themselves from a lawsuit (and they can protect the public from having to pay for it). It's harder for school officials to exercise discretion in the public eye than it is for kids not to bring steak knives to school."

Here's a way that discretion may have played out, given that this particular individual did not stab anyone, or even threaten to do so.

"Hey, kid. Knives aren't allowed at school. That's a steak knife. I'm sorry, but we're going to have to send you home for the day, and tell you not to bring that back in the future, or the consequences will escalate."

ZOMG, a reasonable and measured response! It's... unpossible!

12/16/2007 4:06:25 PM

Quote :

"If some kid stabs another kid in the cafeteria with a steak knife he took from someone who was cutting his food, the school system can now say they don't tolerate knives in lunches and that, in fact, they had a girl arrested for it. They can protect themselves from a lawsuit (and they can protect the public from having to pay for it)."

This I think is indicative of a larger problem in our society. Explain to me under what reasoning is the school in any way shape or form responsible for a kid that grabs a steak knife from another kid who's eating their lunch and stabs a third kid with it?

That and the fact that in modern society the response to a kid stabbing another kid is to ban steak knives rather than stopping kids from stabbing each other in the first place is the reason why I think that although every generation has said the next generation is going to hell in a hand basket, we really are in trouble.

A kid stabs another kid with a knife while at school and we think the appropriate response is to ban all knives from school, sue the school and arrest any students that bring a steak knife to school. Somewhere here we're missing the vital step of stopping kids from wanting to stab each other.

12/16/2007 5:02:58 PM

Quote :

"Somewhere here we're missing the vital step of stopping kids from wanting to stab each other."

How do you do that? You already have problems with taking steak knives away from 6 year olds. I'm sure you'd have even larger issues with whatever program they implemented to stop kids from wanting to stab each other.

Quote :

""Hey, kid. Knives aren't allowed at school. That's a steak knife. I'm sorry, but we're going to have to send you home for the day, and tell you not to bring that back in the future, or the consequences will escalate.""

Yeah, what's wrong with that response.

Reading between the lines...
1) What parent worth their weight in salt actually thinks sending their kid to school with a steak knife is a good idea?
2) Wow. When I was 10 I was eating PB&J, this one eats steak and potatoes.

Solution. Mandate that all the 3 graders steaks be cooked rare... they're easier to cut that way.

[Edited on December 16, 2007 at 8:32 PM. Reason : -]

12/16/2007 8:26:15 PM

Quote :

"How do you do that?"

i also want to know

12/16/2007 8:41:54 PM

Quote :

"Don't roll your eyes at me, bitch."

consider yourself called out, motherfucker.

Bridget won this thread.

12/16/2007 9:50:31 PM

Oh, I've been buuuuurned. I mean, just look at how she called out the Duke over in Chit Chat.

I better just quit now before I really get served.

12/16/2007 9:52:57 PM

Quote :

"How do you do that?"

Not by banning all knives and arresting kids trying to eat their lunch that's for sure.

How about stopping problems before they escalate to a stabbing?

How about actually disciplining kids who are disruptive to the learning environment?

How about doing something about the school system so that it's less of a factory/prison/babysitting center and more of an actual school?

How about parents getting involved in their kid's lives and caring about their schooling?

How about teaching kids some god damned self control?

How about teaching (and practicing) personal responsibility?

Is there one simple easy solution? No. Is every solution going to fit all scenarios and stop all attacks? No. Kids will fight, that's natural and a given. Kids fighting with knives is not, and it has nothing to do with access to knives.

Quote :

" You already have problems with taking steak knives away from 6 year olds. "

10 year old, and I've already said that if the school wants to have a general policy against knives that's one thing. What I have an issue with is arresting and charging the kid with a god damn felony. Let's say for a moment that the extreme retardation afflicting this school is contagious and the DA and Judge get it too. If this kid were actually convicted of this felony, they would lose their right to vote at 18 and lose their right to own a gun later in life. All because they were eating some fucking steak.

Quote :

"1) What parent worth their weight in salt actually thinks sending their kid to school with a steak knife is a good idea?"

Baring a school ban on knives, if I send my kid to school with steak for lunch, exactly what is a bad idea about sending them with the appropriate utensils to eat it?

Quote :

"2) Wow. When I was 10 I was eating PB&J, this one eats steak and potatoes."

Horrors, that a parent might actually feed their kid real food.

12/17/2007 12:00:57 AM

Quote :

"Baring a school ban on knives, if I send my kid to school with steak for lunch, exactly what is a bad idea about sending them with the appropriate utensils to eat it?"

what a stupid fucking question, considering, THERE IS A BAN ON KNIVES AT SCHOOL

totally awesome hypothetical situation dude. not sure what point you're trying to make with it

[Edited on December 17, 2007 at 12:05 AM. Reason : ,]

12/17/2007 12:03:29 AM

Quote :

"what a stupid fucking question, considering, THERE IS A BAN ON KNIVES AT SCHOOL "

Don't they require some level of critical reading skills before you're admitted to college?

Quote :

""Baring a school ban on knives, if I send my kid to school with steak for lunch, exactly what is a bad idea about sending them with the appropriate utensils to eat it?""

Quote :

"bar·ring (bär'ing) prep. Apart from the occurrence of; excepting: Barring strong headwinds, the plane will arrive on schedule. "

12/17/2007 12:12:16 AM

Quote :

"1337 b4k4: Not by banning all knives and arresting kids trying to eat their lunch that's for sure. How about stopping problems before they escalate to a stabbing?"

Teachers and officials stop problems every day.

Just in case they fail, we opt not to allow students to bring knives to school. And it's not like kids are walking on the ready to stab one another at any moment—it's a rare occurrence…but again, just in case, there are rules against having weapons at school.

How would you propose we eliminate "problems" in schools?

Quote :

"1337 b4k4: How about actually disciplining kids who are disruptive to the learning environment?"

Are you talking about corporal punishment? Cause there's already a lot of disciplining otherwise going on. You have to remember that kids are kids. They get rowdy, and it's hard to expect them to behave perfectly all the time.

There are places where kids behave perfectly nearly all the time, and I don't think you'd approve of the methods.

Quote :

"1337 b4k4: How about doing something about the school system so that it's less of a factory/prison/babysitting center and more of an actual school?"

This is an excellent idea. Let's open public preschools where children can be inspired at a younger age and learn some vital social/behavioral skills. Let's also make classes smaller and continue to strive for socioeconomic diversity.

What are some of your ideas on this topic? I'm wondering how you can call our schools prisons but earlier you implied that there wasn't enough disciplining going on. This whole story is about a kid getting disciplined, and it could work…parents in that school system may never pack steak knives in their kid's lunches ever again.

Quote :

"1337 b4k4: How about parents getting involved in their kid's lives and caring about their schooling?"

Also an excellent idea. We need to figure out a way to decrease the cost of housing so parents can work less and spend more time on their children.

What are some of your ideas for getting parents more involved in their children's lives?

Quote :

"1337 b4k4: How about teaching kids some god damned self control?"

Many psychologists suggest that true self-control cannot be achieved until adulthood. Children need to behave for the most part, but again, kids are kids. Their lack of self-control is what makes them children.

Character development is important for children, and you already know that it's missing from some home environments. If schools are anything like they were when I was a kid, the character development programs are a joke. Teachers and faculty are too concerned with EOGs and the like to do much more than spend five minutes a month defining a word (integrity, honesty, etc…) and having children use it in a sentence.

Smaller class sizes and less testing would free up time for teachers to focus on character development. Smaller class sizes would also give our children room to breathe. Spending nearly your entire day in a cramped room with thirty other kids is [i]stressful[i], and it shouldn't come as any surprise that our kids are butting heads at higher than optimal rates.

What are some of your ideas for teaching self-control?

Quote :

"1337 b4k4: How about teaching (and practicing) personal responsibility?"

Personal responsibility is taught every day, but it's not an easy thing to teach.

We don't live in a shame-based society, and I thank goodness for that. But we're also a little too far to the other side where people are slow to take responsibility for their actions, whether it's the poor, single mother who lost her job for missing days and just got pregnant again or the rich, fat guy who had yet another heart attack while drinking beer all day on the golf course.

They all have excuses, and some of them are ridiculous. We should strive to take responsibility for our actions, but there's one excuse/explanation that applies to us all: we're human. If you're perfect, 1337 b4k4, then good for you… The rest of us are not.

12/17/2007 1:41:35 AM

13 Zero Tolerance Horror Stories

http://www.heartland.org/Article.cfm?artId=12352

Anyone who can't see that "zero tolerance" has been abused at many schools across our country is an idiot. Now get in line before you get maced in the face or tasered.

Good topic.

12/17/2007 4:21:50 AM

^The Heartland Institute...really?

Quote :

"hooksaw: Anyone who can't see that "zero tolerance" has been abused at many schools across our country is an idiot."

It's not just a problem in our schools. Our criminal justice system and our workplaces are all moving in this direction along with schools. It's a symptom of the turn that society is taking to feel safe and on top of things that are actually out of its control.

1337 b4k4 revealed his true motives when he moved from bitching about zero tolerance to harshly criticizing public schools in general.

The first step to privatization is convincing people that a public service doesn't work. Then you ease them in with something like school vouchers. And then you convince them that private is always better. And next thing you know, public education is an artifact.

I'll bet a billion dollars that 1337 b4k4 wants school vouchers.

12/17/2007 5:35:07 AM

Quote :

"^The Heartland Institute...really?"

Yes, really. It may come as a shock to you, but the mainstream media usually doesn't jump right on this type of story. FYI.

12/17/2007 5:41:08 AM

^WTF are you talking about?

I've been reading about kids getting kicked out of schools for bullshit for a long ass time.

The mainstream media has picked up on these stories.

And going to a conservative thinktank like the fucking Heartland Institute is fucking lazy and irresponsible, especially for someone like yourself who claims to be all independent and shit.

Fuck you.

12/17/2007 5:53:55 AM

The first step to privatizationsocializing something is convincinggetting the government to muck around in a perfectly functioning private industry and break it in order to convince people that a publicprivate service doesn't work. Then you ease them in with something like school vouchersSCHIP. After all, it's for the CHILDREN. And then you convince them that privatepublic is always better. And next thing you know, public educationa functioning private healthcare industry is an artifact.


Seriously, Bridget, what is so awful about allowing parents a choice in how their kids are educated? Are you anti-choice? Would you force the same thing upon a pregnant mother wrt disallowing her to choose an abortion? You should welcome private education as a way to better educate our children. Of course, if we did that, then you wouldn't be able to so easily brainwash our children, so I can see the problem...

12/17/2007 6:51:56 AM

^Healthcare has nothing to do with this topic.

I don't even think I'm gonna end up being a teacher, and I have no interest in brainwashing kids. Fuck you, too, for suggesting so.

And parents already have the choice to send their kids to private schools so I'm not quite clear on what you're fucking getting at.

12/17/2007 7:03:52 AM

Quote :

"What I have an issue with is arresting and charging the kid with a *** ***** felony."

Yes, I agree that this is way over the top.

Quote :

"Baring a school ban on knives, if I send my kid to school with steak for lunch, exactly what is a bad idea about sending them with the appropriate utensils to eat it?"

Barring a school ban on knives? What school doesn't have a ban on knives? If you send your kid to school with a steak knife then you aren't involved enough in your child's life to know that it's against the rules to bring a knife to school. Heck, you aren't even involved enough with society as a whole. Seriously, which schools allow knives?

Quote :

"Horrors, that a parent might actually feed their kid real food."

I know it's your goal to be argumentative about every little thing, this is the internet after all, but that last statement was a joke.

12/17/2007 8:40:26 AM

this is why I appreciated going to a british school for elementary/middle school. We could bring real food to school and a knife to cut it because our parents taught us it was wrong to stab your classmates and/or shoot them.

12/17/2007 10:34:02 AM

Quote :

"How many bowie knives and switchblades do you know of that double as steak knives?"

I know a guy who stabbed someone three times in the back and once in the throat with a steak knife. He punctured a lung with one of the back stabs. So, there you go.

I don't think this girl should be charged with a felony. Actually, I don't think this should go into our legal system at all. Still, it is downright stupid to push your luck regardless of your intentions. She should be suspended so that she'll learn her lesson, or more likely so that her idiot parents will learn their lesson. There is no way you could rightfully think that it is ok to bring a steak knife into a public school in 2007.

The problem is that if the school officials try to use any common sense or judgment people will scream discrimination. Some jackass will bring a dagger to school and when he gets a felony charge his parents will say "but you didn't charge that insert race here girl who brought a steak knife to school. Lose a couple of six figure lawsuits and you get the point pretty quick.

12/17/2007 2:14:11 PM

Quote :

"How would you propose we eliminate "problems" in schools?"

You don't have to eliminate them, just stop them before the escalate to someone getting stabbed.

Quote :

"Are you talking about corporal punishment? Cause there's already a lot of disciplining otherwise going on. You have to remember that kids are kids. They get rowdy, and it's hard to expect them to behave perfectly all the time. There are places where kids behave perfectly nearly all the time, and I don't think you'd approve of the methods."

No I'm not talking about corporal punishment, but I hardly call detentions in groups as disciplining. And again, I'm not looking for all problems to be solved, but I would like to think that we can catch and prevent most kids from STABBING their classmates.

Quote :

"This is an excellent idea. Let's open public preschools where children can be inspired at a younger age and learn some vital social/behavioral skills. Let's also make classes smaller and continue to strive for socioeconomic diversity."

The only thing I agree with you on is the smaller class sizes. I don't see a need for public preschools and forced diversity only leads to conflict.

Quote :

"What are some of your ideas on this topic? I'm wondering how you can call our schools prisons but earlier you implied that there wasn't enough disciplining going on."

You can have a prison without discipline.

Quote :

"This whole story is about a kid getting disciplined, and it could work…parents in that school system may never pack steak knives in their kid's lunches ever again."

And you don't see the problem here? You're disciplining the student for the failings of the parent.

Quote :

"Also an excellent idea. We need to figure out a way to decrease the cost of housing so parents can work less and spend more time on their children. "

Steps to cut housing costs:

1) Buy a smaller house.
2) Don't live above your means
3) Don't have kids you can't afford.

Quote :

"What are some of your ideas for getting parents more involved in their children's lives?"

We shouldn't need any ideas for this. Parents should be doing it as part of parenting. If you can't, you're neglecting your child.

Quote :

"Many psychologists suggest that true self-control cannot be achieved until adulthood. Children need to behave for the most part, but again, kids are kids. Their lack of self-control is what makes them children."

I'm pretty sure most psychologists would also agree that you can teach your child that STABBING their classmates is wrong and teach them to control their behavior enough to not STAB their classmates.

Quote :

"Character development is important for children, and you already know that it's missing from some home environments. If schools are anything like they were when I was a kid, the character development programs are a joke. Teachers and faculty are too concerned with EOGs and the like to do much more than spend five minutes a month defining a word (integrity, honesty, etc…) and having children use it in a sentence. "

My question honestly is why should the schools need to teach this crap in the first place. Integrity, honesty, honor, these are concepts that parents should be drilling from day one. And again, if they aren't, they are neglecting their child.

Quote :

"Smaller class sizes and less testing would free up time for teachers to focus on character development. Smaller class sizes would also give our children room to breathe. Spending nearly your entire day in a cramped room with thirty other kids is [i]stressful[i], and it shouldn't come as any surprise that our kids are butting heads at higher than optimal rates. "

Fully 100% agree.

Quote :

"What are some of your ideas for teaching self-control?"

"Johnny, stabbing people is wrong. If you do it, you will go to jail. You will not be bailed out. Also you will be grounded"

Step 1 as always, is talking to your damn kid.

Quote :

"Personal responsibility is taught every day, but it's not an easy thing to teach. "

Sure it is. You are responsible for the choices and decisions that you make. You receive credit for the good and the bad. Your decision to stab your classmate is your fault, your responsibility and you will take the punishment for it. Not the knife, not the other kids who are only trying to eat their steak, and not the school.

Quote :

"We don't live in a shame-based society, and I thank goodness for that. But we're also a little too far to the other side where people are slow to take responsibility for their actions, whether it's the poor, single mother who lost her job for missing days and just got pregnant again or the rich, fat guy who had yet another heart attack while drinking beer all day on the golf course. They all have excuses, and some of them are ridiculous. We should strive to take responsibility for our actions, but there's one excuse/explanation that applies to us all: we're human. If you're perfect, 1337 b4k4, then good for you… The rest of us are not."

You don't have to be perfect. Accepting responsibility and consequences and appropriate responses to outcomes doesn't require you to be perfect.

But what are you teaching your children when a kid stabs another and you ban the knives? That it was the evil knife that made little johnny stab someone? Or that because some people can do evil with a tool, no one should have that tool?

Or to use your examples, what lesson do you teach kids when the mother loses her job for not showing up to work and gets mailed a welfare check? Or when the rich guy sues the golf course for selling him that 80th beer before noon?

Quote :

"It's not just a problem in our schools. Our criminal justice system and our workplaces are all moving in this direction along with schools. It's a symptom of the turn that society is taking to feel safe and on top of things that are actually out of its control. "

And the sooner that everyone realizes that some things can not be reasonably controlled, but must instead be controlled for, the better off we will all be.

Quote :

"1337 b4k4 revealed his true motives when he moved from bitching about zero tolerance to harshly criticizing public schools in general."

Cute, but I was criticizing society as a whole. I'm harsher on the schools because while we can't "change society" (directly anyway) we can change our school systems.

Quote :

"The first step to privatization is convincing people that a public service doesn't work. Then you ease them in with something like school vouchers. And then you convince them that private is always better. And next thing you know, public education is an artifact. "

The first step to solving a problem is admitting you have one in the first place.

Quote :

"I'll bet a billion dollars that 1337 b4k4 wants school vouchers."

I hope no one took you on that bet, I've said as much in other threads. Of course I want vouchers. Choice is a good thing. Also, less public school students = smaller class sizes.

Quote :

"Barring a school ban on knives? What school doesn't have a ban on knives? If you send your kid to school with a steak knife then you aren't involved enough in your child's life to know that it's against the rules to bring a knife to school. Heck, you aren't even involved enough with society as a whole."

Jesus tittyfucking tapdancing christ do I really have to spell this out for you? To examine the worth of banning knives from school completely (banned presumably because there is something wrong with it) you must first ask what is wrong with bringing a steak knife to school to cut your steak. So I ask again, ignoring the possibility of a knife ban, what is wrong with sending your kid to school with a steak knife to cut their steak with?

Quote :

"I know it's your goal to be argumentative about every little thing, this is the internet after all, but that last statement was a joke."

Is there something wrong with sending your child to school with something other than a sandwich?

Quote :

"this is why I appreciated going to a british school for elementary/middle school. We could bring real food to school and a knife to cut it because our parents taught us it was wrong to stab your classmates and/or shoot them."

Hell, I went to american public schools and never feared that I would get stabbed by someone. I'm not quite sure why all these people seem to think that elementary school kids are all plotting to stab each other, and doing so frequently enough to warrant a ban on all knives.

Quote :

"The problem is that if the school officials try to use any common sense or judgment people will scream discrimination. Some jackass will bring a dagger to school and when he gets a felony charge his parents will say "but you didn't charge that insert race here girl who brought a steak knife to school. Lose a couple of six figure lawsuits and you get the point pretty quick."

BINGO

[Edited on December 17, 2007 at 2:28 PM. Reason : was his name-o]

12/17/2007 2:27:35 PM

Quote :

"So I ask again, ignoring the possibility of a knife ban, what is wrong with sending your kid to school with a steak knife to cut their steak with?"

Nothing. But just know that this is a ban that currently exists in every school in the nation, so I'm not sure where you are even trying to go with this.

Quote :

"Is there something wrong with sending your child to school with something other than a sandwich?"

What? You can't even tell that I was joking around even after I explicitly told you I was joking. Wow.

[Edited on December 17, 2007 at 2:45 PM. Reason : -]

12/17/2007 2:45:21 PM

The public school system sucks. The problems with any bloated gov't funded program is ever visible in education. Worried about teaching to the tests programs like NCLB have watered down public school education to nothing more to stale bread and cheap wine. Then b.c of random shit like columbine and gang violence school treat students like prisoners instead of children. As a 18 yr old high school senior except for the "cool teacher" I couldn't even go to the fucking bathroom w/o a secuirty escort to make sure i wasn't selling drugs and stealing shit while out of class.

12/17/2007 3:11:55 PM

meh. i had a pretty positive public school experience.

12/17/2007 3:14:41 PM