This is the ad that Clinton has starting to run in Wisconsin b\c refused a debate with her there.

"Both Democratic candidates have been invited to a televised Wisconsin debate," an announcer says in the new 30 second spot. "Hillary Clinton has said yes. Barack Obama hasn't. Maybe he'd prefer to give speeches than have to answer questions."

haha, this could get good...

2/13/2008 1:42:52 PM

i don't know why he wouldn't debate...all he has to do is say "it's time for change" and smile and democrats everywhere will pee there pants

2/13/2008 1:51:36 PM

^Because it's a tactic by Clinton. She is running out of money. Debates are free. Advertising isn't. As soon as she realized she had no money, she challenged him to like 10 debates over the next few weeks. It's her way of getting free advertising.

2/13/2008 1:57:31 PM

i definitely pee there pants when i here him speak

2/13/2008 1:57:40 PM

and clinton has actually tended to do well in debates, its to her advantage in more ways than free advertising.

2/13/2008 1:58:39 PM

I read somewhere that she still has like 20 million put aside for the general election. Is that a campaign finance law or should she maybe start thinking about breaking that out?

2/13/2008 1:59:56 PM

Quote :

"i don't know why he wouldn't debate...all he has to do is say "it's time for change" and smile and democrats everywhere will pee there pants"

Have you heard any of his rally speeches? He actually goes pretty deep into his platform, includes numbers, and specific plans.

http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/ObamaBlueprintForChange.pdf

I see it scares lots of the more conservative, and hard-headed republicans how much support he's getting from their own party... and that's understandable

2/13/2008 2:00:30 PM

^^ General election funds are designated for the General Election. They are put into a separate bank account and cannot be used for the primary election.

If she doesn't get into the general election, then all of that money has to be returned within 60 days of her dropping out.

Biden, Edwards and Richardson are all having to do that now. It's a pain in the ass...

2/13/2008 2:03:19 PM

woops

[Edited on February 13, 2008 at 2:05 PM. Reason : ]

2/13/2008 2:05:43 PM

i definitely respect him as a speaker and i think he seems like a fairly stand-up guy. i just despise a lot of his plans/policies (i dislike hillary more tho) welfare paradise country ftl

[Edited on February 13, 2008 at 2:09 PM. Reason : ]

2/13/2008 2:09:24 PM

like, to each individual giver? dang....

2/13/2008 2:10:36 PM

yea, the audit is a bitch, and so is tracking it on the front end.

glad that its not my job

2/13/2008 2:12:11 PM

Quote :

" i just despise a lot of his plans/policies"

I can understand that, but if you look at McCain and Clinton's websites, they barely have any plan/policies up there. Obama has a whole fucking book. If McCain takes office, you don't know what the fuck's gonna happen (other than more troops going to Iraq, and staying there until someone sane takes office)

2/13/2008 2:18:14 PM

Thats actually a pretty clever way to donate. You could donate $$ to multiple candidates general election fund, knowing that only one of them will recieve the nomination, thereby hedging your bets while simultaneously buying influence.

2/13/2008 2:19:04 PM

In a way, yes, but you can not give to the general fund without first maxing to the primary. So you'd have to give them their 2300 that they keep, and then give them the 2300 for the general.

Most of the larger donors do that for all of the candidates so that they don't get in trouble with whomever the nominee. But the people that really get the influence are the ones that raise the money. And its hard to raise large sums of money for multiple candidates.

2/13/2008 2:20:55 PM

oh. well you could still max out on say BOB, HRC, and JRE, knowing that you'll be getting at least 4600 back

2/13/2008 2:26:54 PM

Yeah, I met a lot of people in DC this summer who were giving mostly with hopes of landing a job in the White House should Obama\Clinton win......I guess they take a look at that stuff when hiring staffers?

2/13/2008 2:27:17 PM

^^ True

^ Max out checks will not get you a position in the whitehouse. Might get your kid (if you have kids) an internship, but thats about it. The number of people that have maxed out to those campaigns is in the thousands. And Hillary's and Obama's campaign staff is in the hundreds, they'll probably be the first to be considered for a job...

[Edited on February 13, 2008 at 2:29 PM. Reason : 1000 posts...not sure if I should be proud or ashamed ]

2/13/2008 2:28:50 PM

Quote :

"she challenged him to like 10 debates over the next few weeks."

He isn't going to debate on Fox News, that's for damn sure!!!



http://foxattacks.com/blog/573-fox-attacks-obama

2/13/2008 2:38:39 PM

Good lord,

I was actually just reading his platform and it sounds more like a nightmare than anything else. He must not have any economic advisors working for him.

Step 1 - reduce corporate influence. This is OK, except when special interests start winning out over corporations and they move their business outside the US. It's already becoming a pain in the ass to do business here.

Step 2 - encourage labor unions. Has he not ever heard of Detroit?

Step 3 - raise minimum wage every year

Step 4 - end tax breaks to corporations

Step 5 - free healthcare to all Americans. Because the federal government has such a good track record of regulating private industry.

Step 6 - Create gigantic new bureaucracies
To regulate credit card companies and lobbyists among others. However, I do think that his allowing for a "Notice and Comment" period on federal laws is interesting. It has proven to be an effective tool at the agency level. I can't understand why he wants to beef up the IRS so much and increase their level of power. I'll be damned if I want the IRS to complete my taxes for me.

Basically, everything that he is proposing is going to create huge needless government oversight in my life. He intends to provide greater incentive to corporations to move outside the US. Increase minimum wage every year, which should send unemployment through the roof and cause unstable inflation. No thanks.

This isn't a government that I deserve.

The icing on the cake is going to be immediately pulling out of Iraq and effectively condoning the widespread genocide of Kurdish separatists among other groups in Iraq.

This isn't a government that I deserve.

I can see why he would appeal to this young generation of people who believe that just because they were born in the United States that they are entitled to something for nothing.

The only thing that I can see that is a good idea is to increase taxation on the wealthy and give a little relief to the middle class since they are the ones that are pushing the cart.


[Edited on February 13, 2008 at 4:47 PM. Reason : .]

2/13/2008 4:27:59 PM

Quote :

"Step 3 - raise minimum wage every year"

This is a microcosm of your misinterpretation of his WHOLE agenda

He isn't proposing RAISING minimum wage every year, he's proposing indexing it with INFLATION, which means it will never even be a REAL raise

Washington State already does this

Get it right

2/13/2008 5:16:37 PM

I didn't out right state that it would be a raise in real dollars, but either way, an increase in minimum wage paid results in an increase in unemployment. But by the time that happens, I am sure you will have found a way to blame that on Bush.

Besides, there is also a good chance that every year that MW is increased, the market will adjust and it will be nothing more meaningless gesture to get people to vote for him.

Get it right.

[Edited on February 13, 2008 at 5:24 PM. Reason : sdf]

2/13/2008 5:22:25 PM

Quote :

"Sputter: The icing on the cake is going to be immediately pulling out of Iraq and effectively condoning the widespread genocide of Kurdish separatists among other groups in Iraq."

What about the current genocide of the Kurdish separatists in Turkey? Let alone the genocide that Turkey would like to bring to the same groups in Iraq.

I suppose they're okay because they're defending themselves from the PKK, a SECULAR terrorist organization that the Iraqi government is harboring...

[Edited on February 13, 2008 at 6:51 PM. Reason : WITH US OR WITH THE TERRORISTS]

2/13/2008 6:49:37 PM

Quote :

"an increase in minimum wage paid results in an increase in unemployment. But by the time that happens, I am sure you will have found a way to blame that on Bush."

GOOD LOGIC!!

Why don't we just DECREASE minimum wage to NOTHING and let EVERYONE WORK!!!!

2/13/2008 8:19:04 PM

You would benefit from taking a basic economics course.

2/13/2008 8:20:27 PM

It was my major

2/13/2008 8:22:04 PM

Wow.

So anyhow...

http://www.house.gov/jec/cost-gov/regs/minimum/against/against.htm

[Edited on February 13, 2008 at 8:28 PM. Reason : more info]

2/13/2008 8:23:08 PM

Yeah, I figured you'd come back with some BS like "wow"

do you want to challenge me on the flawed logic that I pointed out?

or do you just want to tell me to take a course that I already passed, got a degree in (from your school)

and say "wow"


^yes, raising minimum wage does take jobs away from teens and the poor - but does that have anything to do with the point I made?

And does it cause a rise in unemployment as a whole?

[Edited on February 13, 2008 at 8:31 PM. Reason : nope ]

2/13/2008 8:29:01 PM

I'm glad you could pull away from your Bush did it 9/11 conspiracy theories to contribute, albeit piss poor.

2/13/2008 8:31:03 PM

are you talking to me?

2/13/2008 8:32:45 PM

^ Actually you never refuted anything. You made a smartass comment (GOOD LOGIC) followed with a flawed hyperbolic statement.

Raising the minimum wage has shown to increase unemployment, but fuck the poor, right? I mean as you said, if that's all it's really effecting, along with those damned teenagers.

Did you not state previously that you supported Obama because he will open up all this information about 9/11 because you thought there might be some grand conspiracy behind it all?

[Edited on February 13, 2008 at 8:35 PM. Reason : ]

2/13/2008 8:34:12 PM

Quote :

"Sputter: The icing on the cake is going to be immediately pulling out of Iraq and effectively condoning the widespread genocide of Kurdish separatists among other groups in Iraq."

I like it when folks are like but what about the genocide...

My next question is always: so you favor intervention in Darfur?

And then they're like ummm, nevermind.

Quote :

"Sputter: Step 5 - free healthcare to all Americans"

I think you may have stumbled on Dennis Kucinich's webpage by mistake.

2/13/2008 8:35:59 PM

Jesus Christ - I'm not going to argue with you - i'm gonna go have sex with a girl and watch the Maryland Duke game

Bye

2/13/2008 8:37:41 PM

For some reason when I saw this thread it made me question when is HRC's rap album going to come out ?

2/13/2008 10:44:41 PM

Quote :

"Why don't we just DECREASE minimum wage to NOTHING and let EVERYONE WORK!!!! "

Actually, I would be all for letting the market dictate wages and keep the government out of it all together. You seem sarcastic in your assertion, but I think that this is a great idea.

Quote :

"I like it when folks are like but what about the genocide... My next question is always: so you favor intervention in Darfur? And then they're like ummm, nevermind. "

Actually, I would support some action in Darfur from the US. But you know what would be easier, asking the Chinese to stop arming the janjaweed and the Sudanese government. But then, the Chinese are there pumping out oil and that is why they are providing arms. But then I suppose Bush should attack China or at least the government they are propping up in the Sudan. Smart plan. Furthermore, I believe that the African Union has expressed the desire to take care of their own problems, and has begun amassing an African force to occupy and prevent the genocide. It's too bad American Democrats don't believe in taking care of their own problems.



And I almost forgot, the free medical coverage. OK, I was exagerrating. Obama wants to subsidize it. Awesome! Instead of fixing the problem, let's dump a ton of money on it. HEY, IT WORKED FOR THE SUGAR FARMERS IN LOUISIANA!!111

[Edited on February 13, 2008 at 10:59 PM. Reason : asdf]

2/13/2008 10:56:11 PM

Quote :

"Because the federal government has such a good track record of regulating private industry"

what?

aren't free marketers supposed to be happy with that?

and when you run a program (like health care), you run it. not regulate it.

Quote :

"encourage labor unions. Has he not ever heard of Detroit? "

have you never heard of NYC? shit works wonders for a town of 8 million.

2/14/2008 12:20:47 AM

Quote :

"have you never heard of NYC? shit works wonders for a town of 8 million."

Are you referring to the four month garbage strike when rats ran rampant and garbage was piled up to the second floor of a lot of buildings or are you referring to four or five transit strikes that have cost untold millions in lost productivity?

Again, I can't understand why anyone would want the government to regulate, run, or provide oversight of the medical industry. Why would someone who encourages a free market would ever want any government involvement at all is beyond me. Unless there is a monopoly.

Either way, Democrats believe that they can fix anything by dumping tax dollars into it and increasing federal government presence. It's going to be a huge failure and a huge tax burden and one day student of economics will study what a horrible allocation of resources it is.

If you people want to be babied by your government, then pack your shit up and move to France. They have all of the benefits that Obama wants to execute and it's wonderful there, nevermind the nearly 20% unemployment rate and riots every year. Sounds like a good plan.

2/14/2008 9:25:51 AM

Quote :

"nevermind the nearly 20% unemployment rate and riots every year. Sounds like a good plan."

or 8.6%. of course that's if you want to cite reality.

2/14/2008 9:28:56 AM

Quote :

"have you never heard of NYC? shit works wonders for a town of 8 million. "

Sputter, you forgot the transit strike too. Bc 60k for a high school graduate to tear tickets just wasnt good enough. We need to sink MORE tax payer money into that system.

Face it, unions are outdated and help force companies overseas or bankrupt.

Anyone else see GM try out buyout ALL thier US workforce? So they lost how much money last year and are now offernig a huge buyout to get out of the union.

There certainly was a time they were needed, just not anymore.

2/14/2008 9:51:16 AM

Quote :

"or 8.6%. of course that's if you want to cite reality."

yeah i was just making that part up. i didn't think anyone in here would be intelligent enough to actually look to see if I was bullshitting. oh well. there was one guy.

A business week quote concerning unemployment and riots in France:

Quote :

"Yet the outbursts were supercharged by an economic system that not only tolerates but actually fosters sky-high youth unemployment. In September, an incredible 21.7% of 15- to 24-year-olds in France were unemployed, compared to only 11% in the U.S. and 12.6% in Britain. France isn't alone -- other European countries, such as Belgium, Spain, Greece, Italy, and Finland -- also have persistent youth unemployment rates above 20%. "

The BBC and the CIA have unemployment in France at slightly above 10%. For historical perspective, the US unemployment rate was above 10% from the the 2nd year of the Great Depression until after WWII. In the year after the great crash, 1930, unemployment was 8.7% and crept above 10% to about 16% in 1931.

I guess if that's the way you want our economy to function, then I guess you should vote for Obama.

And of course, US unemployment has only spiked to above 10% once in the last half century and that was in 1983 for a very brief period.





[Edited on February 14, 2008 at 10:55 AM. Reason : sadf]

2/14/2008 10:35:32 AM

CLINTON GOING DIRRRTY

2/14/2008 10:37:41 AM

SUSPEND

2/14/2008 10:46:18 AM

ITS ABOUT TIME FOR MY ARRIVAL

2/14/2008 11:25:56 AM

i remember when i used to find her attractive.

2/14/2008 11:42:06 AM

ok, that's enough posting pictures of her. save that shit for chit chat.

2/14/2008 1:13:27 PM

Yah dude

BARACK THAT ASS UP

2/14/2008 1:24:49 PM

Clinton: Uh oh~! Why so serious?! http://shackpics.com/files/whysoserious_kml11jo8wybomkmqno3k.jpg

2/14/2008 1:38:21 PM

2/14/2008 1:39:54 PM

2/14/2008 2:09:40 PM