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JCASHFAN
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Everyone knows its an issue, but it seems easier to bitch about it in TSB than to offer even remotely constructive suggestions.

I don't have any answers myself, but I'm wondering what others on here think should be done.

2/14/2008 4:29:23 PM

drunknloaded
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well obviously gathering up 12 million people and families etc etc etc is not feasible...why cant we just build a better border and document all the ones here...let the good quiet ones stay and kick out the douchebag criminal-ish ones...in my opinion getting everyone documented would be like the obvious solution cause as a country you dont want a bunch of randoms walking around imo

2/14/2008 4:33:41 PM

JCASHFAN
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Quote :
"build a better border"
expound please.

2/14/2008 4:36:04 PM

HUR
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Let them work; but no SS, socialized healthcare (whenever liberals finally pass that crap), or other gov't funded social program.

Also, eliminated the provision where any fence hoppers kid is automatically a citizen.

Quote :
"Dey Tuukker err jerbsss"

2/14/2008 4:40:23 PM

LunaK
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Or how about we force them to be documented and make them pay taxes.

Go after the businesses that hire illegals. Either the businesses have to deduct taxes out of their paychecks, or the people that run the businesses go to jail.

Granted, it doesn't solve the whole problem, but they no longer become as much of a burden on the system if they're paying into it.

2/14/2008 4:44:58 PM

RedGuard
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It has to be a multi-front approach.

1) Similar to Bush's approach, offer them temporary residency if they come clean and pay their taxes. I think five to ten years is reasonable. In the mean time, they can go apply for a green card or another visa.

2) Crack down aggressively on all businesses that hire illegal immigrants. Enforce minimum wage and payroll taxes.

3) Beef up border security. You can't catch them all, but you can at least make it more difficult for them to enter raising the opportunity costs of coming in illegally.

4) Establish a temporary workers permit for NAFTA and maybe CAFTA residents or something. Provide enough visas so that people are willing to wait without trying to come through illegal means.

5) Aggressively pursue those who come in illegally by overstaying Visas.

6) Staff up the INS so they actually have the manpower to process the additional paperwork.

My two cents. Plenty of details to still hash out, but it's the fairest approach.

2/14/2008 4:51:05 PM

HUR
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Quote :
"Go after the businesses that hire illegals. Either the businesses have to deduct taxes out of their paychecks, or the people that run the businesses go to jail."


this is a reasonable idea but will be hard to enforce. The companies that hire illegals are already doing so to avoid following the minimum wage laws.

2/14/2008 4:51:33 PM

LunaK
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They've started to crack down on it in the past few months, but don't have the resources or staff to be out there as much as needed.

It can be done, just a matter of the government deciding on a program, committing to it, and then following through.

2/14/2008 4:56:33 PM

TreeTwista10
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I have no idea what the solution is for the illegals who are already here

I do think, regardless of what we do with the current illegals, if anything, we CAN make steps to lessen future negative impacts, and that starts with better border control. Its hard to monitor a 2,000 mile border, but more border patrol and better fencing/walls could certainly help.

As far as some of the 'free' public services that anyone (including illegals) can take advantage of, we could ask for proof of citizenship but try telling a doctor in an emergency room with somebody dying of a gunshot wound that they can't save the person's life due to paperwork. Also providing some of these state and local level services to all ensures that the state and local governments will get certain federal handouts, ie you have to have a drinking age minimum of at least 21 years of age to qualify for interstate highway funding

2/14/2008 4:56:47 PM

HUR
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I like the idea of granting citizenship and forgiveness to any illegal the enlists in the military. Our ancestors had to fight for this country if they want to be an american maybe they should to.

2/14/2008 5:45:13 PM

eyedrb
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Quote :
"The companies that hire illegals are already doing so to avoid following the minimum wage laws.
"


I dont think that is necessarily true. Most make well above min wage. What they do save is all the other BS taxes businesses are forced to pay and/or match.

My solution would be:
1. if a mother has an anchor baby, she would have two options. Take her baby back with her to mexico when she is deported, or leave the baby and she can return to mexico. If we stick to that, it wont take long.

2. Raise the amount of guest workers we allow into the country. We do need alot of these workers.

3. Make it a federal offense to knowingly hire an illegal. ( I hate the idea of private businesses enforcing our immigration laws, but our govt sure as hell isnt doing it...imagine that. )

4. No cutting in line or amnesty. If someone in this country wants to be american, then they should be allowed to file the paperwork just as anyone else would be.

5. Criminals would be deported or executed.


I too like the idea of enlisting in the military, but I can imagine that would create great difficulty on our armed forces.. but the idea sounds nice.

If we stopped paying people in this country to sit at home and breed, then we wouldnt have the need for unskilled labor. If you could address those issues, which will happen when hell freezes over or we go bankrupt, I think it would solve alot of these problems.

That and allow hospitals to decline treatment and triage patients.

My personal experience in the office has been that illegals are some of the best patients. They will pay cash, do exactly what they are told, fill whatever perscription you write and are general very grateful for you helping them. I actually look forward to seeing them. A breath of fresh air from the insurance whiners and "is that covered by my insurance?" crowds.

2/14/2008 7:46:41 PM

Prawn Star
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Quote :
"If we stopped paying people in this country to sit at home and breed, then we wouldnt have the need for unskilled labor."


As long as we have agribusiness, we will always have a need for unskilled labor.

Those jobs have always been done by immigrants. Before the mexicans, it was southeast asian workers. Before them were european immigrant workers.

You will never get enough American citizens to work 8 hours of hard, farm labor, no matter how much you pay them. The cost of labor becomes prohibitive when migrant workers are cut off.

[Edited on February 14, 2008 at 8:02 PM. Reason : 2]

2/14/2008 8:01:49 PM

eyedrb
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Prawn, I think you missed my point. As long as we pay generally unskilled workers to not work, we will have a need to import labor. Fix the glitch, and you will have a labor force. Sure, it might not be worth a damn at first, but hunger is a helluva motivator.

2/14/2008 8:24:39 PM

Prawn Star
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I think you missed my point.

American citizens will NEVER work long, hot 8 hour days as farm-hands. And they will never starve to death either. Get the idea out of your head, because it won't happen.

The idiots in this country would rather make minimum wage working at McDonalds than make $30 an hour working out in the fields.

[Edited on February 14, 2008 at 8:28 PM. Reason : 2]

2/14/2008 8:26:23 PM

eyedrb
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I think there are alot of american that work hard jobs. I also think with some reform, they would pick tobacco again.

They used to work those jobs, what has changed other than entitlements? Why couldnt they do it?

2/14/2008 8:29:08 PM

Prawn Star
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Quote :
"I think there are alot of american that work hard jobs. I also think with some reform, they would pick tobacco again."


If by reform you mean repealing the 13th amendment and by "they" you mean blacks, then yes, I agree.

Quote :
"They used to work those jobs, what has changed other than entitlements? Why couldnt they do it?"


There was never a time when US citizens comprised the bulk of the farm work force. That kind of labor has always been done by uneducated immigrants and / or slaves in this country.

[Edited on February 14, 2008 at 8:34 PM. Reason : 2]

2/14/2008 8:32:33 PM

eyedrb
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Quote :
"There was never a time when US citizens comprised the bulk of the farm work force. That kind of labor has always been done by uneducated immigrants and slaves in this country."


I guess we just imported food before slaves arrived huh.

By THEY I was referring to unskilled workers.

Obama said today that he wants to redo our infrastructure. And that it would create 2 million new jobs. Since americans will NEVER work long hot hours anymore, say building roads, who would those jobs go to? Immigrants? Im just asking.

2/14/2008 8:37:06 PM

GoldenViper
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Make it legal.

Ideally, establish a technocracy and abolish borders.

2/14/2008 9:12:53 PM

skokiaan
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As usual, government protectionism creates a black market and a boatload of unintended consequences

Step 1: Eliminate quotas and let the free market determine the correct level of immigration. 12 million illegals says the government is a couple decades too late in changing quotas to match actual market demand.

Step 2: Amnesty for anyone willing to pay taxes.

Step 3: OMG, there's no step 3! There's no step 3!

[Edited on February 14, 2008 at 9:26 PM. Reason : .]

2/14/2008 9:24:46 PM

EarthDogg
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^
Step 3 might address the approx. 30% of the prison population which is made up of illegal aliens. What do we do with all of those hard-working immigrants who just want to share in the American Dream?

2/14/2008 9:34:53 PM

skokiaan
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Make them build railroads

2/14/2008 9:41:29 PM

moron
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^^ where are you getting your 30% number from?

[Edited on February 14, 2008 at 9:42 PM. Reason : ]

2/14/2008 9:42:19 PM

HUR
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Quote :
"3. Make it a federal offense to knowingly hire an illegal. ( I hate the idea of private businesses enforcing our immigration laws, but our govt sure as hell isnt doing it...imagine that. )

4. No cutting in line or amnesty. If someone in this country wants to be american, then they should be allowed to file the paperwork just as anyone else would be.

5. Criminals would be deported or executed. "


I think #5 is pretty fucking extreme. I mean seriously execute someone just for crossing the border b.c they are desperate for work. Sounds like something Nazi Germany would do not the US. “Dey TUKKK err jerbs'

It is not like these mexicans are taking your doctor jobs. Truthfully illegals are probably helping many hard working americans like farmers keep their jobs and compete against big corporation.

I agree with you that we need to stop paying people in this country to sit at home and breed. If these people would get off their fat ass or put the 40 down maybe the demand for the illegal immigrant labor would not be so large. You must at least credit them for doing the hard shitty jobs that apparently a lot of other people do not want to do. For $6/hr there is no way I could stand around summer time Florida helping pick berries.

Quote :
"American citizens will NEVER work long, hot 8 hour days as farm-hands. And they will never starve to death either. Get the idea out of your head, because it won't happen.

The idiots in this country would rather make minimum wage working at McDonalds than make $30 an hour working out in the fields.
"


yeah there are a lot of lazy sacks of shit that would not. If someone paid $30/hr though i think you would be very surprised who would start showing up in the fields. Since though the fair market wage is below the expected wage of many lower class americans the demand is created to bring in illegals who will happily do a crummy job for $4/hr.

Perhaps though if these citizens do not want to work i agree with [user]eyebrb[/user] that they should be thrown to street. Perhaps with their lazy genes out of the gene pool we could eliminate instead of propagate this kind of attitude and lifestyle. Humans after all are animals and besides cool gadgets; still mathematically can be modeled as such. Remember the story of the grasshopper and the ant? 10,000 years ago these peeps would not have survived. why should i work my ass off to support a crack whore welfare mom who has no intention of working and lacks the parenting skills to enable her children to become productive members of society.

I disagree with the fella also who says we just need to open the gates to immigration. I'll settle for the status quo.

2/14/2008 9:43:10 PM

moron
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^ You'll never weed lazy people out of society that way. Laziness is not simple genetics. 2 hardworking people could have lazy kids, or 2 lazy people can have hardworking kids.

2/14/2008 9:52:22 PM

eyedrb
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Hur, Im not talking about executing the ones that simply crossed the border. I dont think we are putting border crossers in prison. Im talking about those illegals that have murdered in this country and are rotting in our jails. Deport the petty thefts and drugs, kill the murders and rapists. IMO, cant just turn those loose, they will come right back.

moron, its not just genes, its motivation. Ive bagged groceries, been a janitor, worked in a factory, worked in a mall, waited tables(by far the worst job) through school to help make ends meet. I did those things knowing what I was working towards. I needed money and those jobs arent beneath me. I knew that if times got tough and I NEEDED money my mom would send some, but if I wasnt trying she probably wouldnt have. Its called reponsiblity and its not something you can breed, it has to be learned.

[Edited on February 14, 2008 at 10:03 PM. Reason : .]

[Edited on February 14, 2008 at 10:03 PM. Reason : .]

2/14/2008 9:59:23 PM

Prawn Star
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Quote :
"If someone paid $30/hr though i think you would be very surprised who would start showing up in the fields. Since though the fair market wage is below the expected wage of many lower class americans the demand is created to bring in illegals who will happily do a crummy job for $4/hr."


Migrant farm workers make a lot more than $4/hr. Where do you come up with this shit?

Without migrant farm workers, there would still be a shortage of orange pickers, etc. even if they paid $30/hr.

Quote :
"I guess we just imported food before slaves arrived huh."


No, we imported labor.

2/14/2008 10:11:47 PM

EarthDogg
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Quote :
"where are you getting your 30% number from?"



Quote :
"By the end of 1999, these same prisons housed over 68,000 criminal aliens. Today, criminal aliens account for over 29 percent of prisoners in Federal Bureau of Prisons facilities and a higher share of all federal prison inmates. These prisoners represent the fastest growing segment of the federal prison population. --Federation for American Immigration Reform referenced to the National Institute of Corrections, Federal Bureau of Prisons, June 2003 "


Quote :
"270,000 illegal immigrants served jail time in 2003, representing 21% of the federal prison population. It is estimated that currently 27% of federal prison inmates are criminal aliens, noncitizens convicted of crimes while in this country legally or illegally.
Wikipedia: http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d05337r.pdf "

2/15/2008 1:08:26 AM

Dentaldamn
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its illegal

2/15/2008 9:22:02 AM

DaBird
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1. make it a federal offense to knowingly hire an illegal
2. cut down on the red tape and make registering as a US worker easy and latino-friendly...this registering should also include a one-time 'freebie' for all those currently here illegally to become legal
3. immediately deport all illegals, once they are discovered, who do not register - zero tolerance
4. enforce the borders as you would against an invading force - we are too nice, especially now that attacks on border agents have drastically increased

2/15/2008 10:15:53 AM

HUR
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Quote :
"3. immediately deport all illegals, once they are discovered, who do not register - zero tolerance
4. enforce the borders as you would against an invading force - we are too nice, especially now that attacks on border agents have drastically increased"


your plan would cost more money then the "damages" that illegals present to this country. You might as well give that money away as "welfare" checks to the "dey tukk er jerb" types who sit on the recliner bitching about mexicans taking their low skilled work. At least they would stop bitching and business owners would get their cheap labor.

[Edited on February 15, 2008 at 10:35 AM. Reason : a]

2/15/2008 10:35:08 AM

hooksaw
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2 Detained in Scrap Plant Ammo Case

Quote :
"The two men, whose identities were not released, were detained Tuesday night and are being held for questioning by U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement agents. They have been charged with immigration violations, said Capt. David Smith, of the Sanford Police Department.

Members of the Sanford Police Department's Special Enforcement Unit searched a mobile home at 2725 Carver Drive in Sanford and found artillery shells in the yard similar to the ones that were dropped off at Raleigh Metals Recycling plant, Smith said. Most of the shells were spent, but at least two were live rounds, he said."


http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/2441580/

2/15/2008 3:42:38 PM

moron
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Quote :
""where are you getting your 30% number from?"



Quote :
"By the end of 1999, these same prisons housed over 68,000 criminal aliens. Today, criminal aliens account for over 29 percent of prisoners in Federal Bureau of Prisons facilities and a higher share of all federal prison inmates. These prisoners represent the fastest growing segment of the federal prison population. --Federation for American Immigration Reform referenced to the National Institute of Corrections, Federal Bureau of Prisons, June 2003 "


Quote :
"270,000 illegal immigrants served jail time in 2003, representing 21% of the federal prison population. It is estimated that currently 27% of federal prison inmates are criminal aliens, noncitizens convicted of crimes while in this country legally or illegally.
Wikipedia: http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d05337r.pdf "

"


Yeah, that says 21% not 30%. the 30% includes non-citizen residents which are not illegal aliens. Also, a large portion of that 21% are in jail for immigration violations, not for a violent crime.

2/15/2008 4:47:09 PM

TreeTwista10
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^^I'm kind of surprised the article even mentions US Immigration...I've read a number of articles about various DWIs involving illegal immigrant drivers over the last year or two and most of the articles failed to mention that the driver arrested for DWI was an illegal immigrant...how convenient to leave out that little piece of information

2/15/2008 4:50:34 PM

moron
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^ I don't see why it matters that much. Should they also start specifically noting when legal immigrants or citizens are the ones that are committing a crime?

2/15/2008 4:53:18 PM

TreeTwista10
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why would they need to note if someone was legal or a citizen? that would be implied in any crime that was committed in the US unless it was noted that they were illegals...if there is a fight in a school you don't need to mention necessarily that it was two students...but if one of the participants in the fight didn't go to school there, that would be worth mentioning because it shows there are even more problems to address

and plus whats wrong with mentioning other laws these criminals have broken? might that shed a little negative light on the perception that illegal immigrants are "hard workers, just looking for a better life"?

besides, i've seen plenty of stories that started with "A Raleigh man" or "A Charlotte man" which certainly implies they are legal citizens and gives their city of birth/residence...so its not like they never mention things like that about citizens/legals

2/15/2008 5:02:11 PM

hooksaw
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^^
1. Why would we want to know that undocumented workers--which means illegal aliens--are in our country in possession of "anti-tank projectiles"?

2. Why should it matter the manpower and money that has been and will be spent cleaning up the explosive mess left by the two illegals?

3. Why should it matter that two workers were injured in the explosion? Hell, they could have just as easily been killed.

4. Why should it matter the unnecessary risk that emergency workers and bomb disposal personnel have been subjected to?

5. Why should it matter that illegals are more likely not to comply with or not to comprehend laws against this type of activity?

STFU, stooge.

2/16/2008 6:02:33 AM

HUR
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but deyy tuukkke errr jerbss!

off note that episode of southpark came on the other night and i couldn't help but laugh at all the real americans i think about bitching that line

2/16/2008 12:58:14 PM

moron
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Quote :
"besides, i've seen plenty of stories that started with "A Raleigh man" or "A Charlotte man" which certainly implies they are legal citizens and gives their city of birth/residence...so its not like they never mention things like that about citizens/legals"


An illegal could also be "a Raleigh man." Saying that doesn't really imply they are legal.

Quote :
"I'm kind of surprised the article even mentions US Immigration...I've read a number of articles about various DWIs involving illegal immigrant drivers over the last year or two and most of the articles failed to mention that the driver arrested for DWI was an illegal immigrant...how convenient to leave out that little piece of information"


If it didn't mention it, how do you know they were an illegal immigrant?

2/16/2008 1:59:00 PM

mathman
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^ because there is more than one source of news.

2/17/2008 1:00:00 AM

AxlBonBach
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deport them all

also, repeal the law that says children born here are American citizens. How dare they abuse that like they have.


if they don't leave, execute them.


and i don't give a fuck about your 1943 Germany comparisons. We should do whatever the fuck we have to do in order to get our country back.

2/17/2008 2:00:56 AM

HUR
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GIT-ER-DUNNN ^


America for white folk yeeehaaw

2/17/2008 1:36:47 PM

Sputter
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.
Quote :
"The companies that hire illegals are already doing so to avoid following the minimum wage laws.
"


Wait a minute, let me get this straight.

1) Illegal immigrants are coming here in droves and businesses which cannot afford to hire enough workers due to minimum wage being too high will hire them even if there is federal law requiring them to turn in these illegal workers.

2) There are too many jobs that Americans won't do because the pay is too low and if the agricultural businesses were to have to pay minimum wage to all of their employees, they would no longer be able to function. There are other factors such as the sheer physical intensity of these jobs, but when I was growing up most of my friends would pick tobacco as their summer job between the ages of 15 and 18 before going to university. I never did because my parents had to when they were young and swore we never would.


Well, it's a good thing that Obama wants to raise minimum wage every year. That's one way to insure that illegal immigration increases dramatically as does unemployment in the general citizen population.

[Edited on February 17, 2008 at 4:10 PM. Reason : trying not to troll]

2/17/2008 3:41:30 PM

theDuke866
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yeah, i can't imagine what sort of ridiculously high, unconstitutional federal minimum wage we'll end up with if either Obama or Clinton get elected.

2/17/2008 4:12:26 PM

skokiaan
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Illegals work for less than minimum wage? Really? Sounds like someone is talking out of their ass.

[Edited on February 17, 2008 at 4:38 PM. Reason : .]

2/17/2008 4:34:40 PM

GrumpyGOP
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The centerpiece of my program would be a graduated program to assimilate immigrants already here into the system while allowing for more to come in:

1) Let them come officially declare their residency without fear of deportation or criminal proceedings, excluding of course those who are wanted for some other criminal offense. Similarly, allow in any individual or family who arrives at a regular point of entry with identification and passes a criminal background check. In the meantime, take whatever steps deemed necessary to secure the remainder of the border, the thinking here being that anyone who tries to cross at somewhere other than a regular location is up to no good.

2) For the first phase of the graduated program, they would be obligated to pay taxes in accordance to the same laws as full citizens. I realize that a fair number would make so little that their income taxes would be negligible or nonexistant, which is why I've included the rest of the provisions for this phase. I'm also toying with the idea of a small, separate tax extended to just this segment of the population in order to offset costs and possibly fund programs to aid in assimilation.

During this stage they would also not be eligible for any government funding/assistance/handouts/entitlements/whatever you want to call them, EXCEPT:

a) Public education
b) Emergency medical care
c) Public services for the homeless

The reasons I have excluded these are fairly simple. A large uneducated population is not good for the country, period. A large population that is not medically treated is a potential disease vector, if nothing else. And a large homeless population is bound to end up a large criminal population.

This phase would last several years by default, although I could envision some sort of other route (fee, national service, etc) to expedite the process. For the duration of it they would not be citizens, but resident aliens. They would be subject to deportation as a penalty for serious criminal offenses.

3) After the close of the first phase, immigrants would be required to pass a simple test. I'm not so much concerned with whether or not they know US history, but rather instead their basic civic duties and obligations. I'm not especially concerned with whether they learn English, that'll happen on its own.

Those that pass the test and have maintained a clean criminal record would then be accorded full citizenship. Those who do not pass would retain their current status for a year, then be offered a chance to take it again.

----

In general, anyone who doesn't take that route would be deported, quickly. Allowing them to come forward and identify themselves means we can harbor some legitimate suspicions about anyone who doesn't. It also makes it easier to keep tabs on a large number of them.

2/17/2008 4:45:43 PM

HUR
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Quote :
"Illegals work for less than minimum wage?"


why else would employers take the risk when apparently so many people are losing their jobs b.c of illegal immigration??

2/17/2008 4:58:49 PM

Prawn Star
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Illegal immigrants, by and large, work harder for less* than American citizens.


*Note: less does not necessarily mean less than minimum wage. In fact, most illegal immigrants make significantly more than minimum wage.

2/17/2008 5:25:21 PM

Sputter
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Quote :
"Illegals work for less than minimum wage? Really? Sounds like someone is talking out of their ass.
"


Was that a rhetorical question? I have to assume that you are referring to yourself. NC is one of the more problematic states for low wages and near slave like conditions for immigrant workers on farms. There is an entire branch of legal aid dedicated solely to protecting these people.

And it's not just farm workers in rural areas either.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/13/national/13janitor.html?pagewanted=print

Quote :
"In this netherworld, cleaning contractors sometimes hire illegal immigrants for $3.50 an hour, considerably less than the $5.15-an-hour federal minimum wage; janitors frequently work off the books, not paying taxes, and building owners do not look too closely at how the work gets done.

"


Although, by and large they are making more than minimum wage as that is what the market dictates.

[Edited on February 17, 2008 at 6:03 PM. Reason : sadf]

2/17/2008 5:58:55 PM

rainman
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Kosovo part 2 in Southwestern US.

2/17/2008 6:46:01 PM

theDuke866
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Quote :
"why else would employers take the risk when apparently so many people are losing their jobs b.c of illegal immigration??
"


it's still cheaper in terms of taxes and benefits.

2/17/2008 8:53:27 PM

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