http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23556551/

Quote :

"Harvard University’s trial policy of denying men use of one of its gyms for six hours a week to accommodate Muslim women has been an exercise in frustration for some students and off-campus critics. Since Feb. 4, the Quadrangle Recreational Athletic Center at the Ivy League school has been open only to women from 8-10 a.m. Tuesdays and Thursdays and 3-5 p.m. on Mondays — allowing Muslim women, who typically cover their hair and most of their skin to follow religious and cultural code, to dress more suitably for exercising. Hussein Ibish, executive director of the Foundation for Arab-American Leadership, said complaints that the policy is unfair are unfounded. Story continues below ?advertisement “It’s about expanding the range of choices,” Ibish told TODAY co-host Matt Lauer on Monday. “Women, for all kinds of reasons, don’t want to exercise in front of men. It’s a minority of women, but there are. This modesty business sometimes comes from religion, sometimes from culture … They just don’t want to be ogled by men when they’re working out.” Michael Smerconish, a talk show host and author of “Muzzled: From T-Ball to Terrorism — True Stories That Should Be Fiction,” countered that the rule shows “political correctness run amok again at Harvard.” “Six individuals out of 6,000 [students] complain,” Smerconish told Lauer. “Those six had access [to the campus gyms] and Harvard’s response is to institute a discriminatory practice where now half are closed out of the gym.”"

This is wrong.

3/10/2008 1:28:30 PM

no one cares. many colleges and universities have women-only gym times.

3/10/2008 1:28:55 PM

If it was the other way around though, some women would be flipping shit.

3/10/2008 1:29:50 PM

one gym for two hours. No big deal.

3/10/2008 1:30:41 PM

^^Would they really?

for 6 fucking hours a week?

Anyone who would get pissed about this needs to get a fucking life

[Edited on March 10, 2008 at 1:32 PM. Reason : ]

3/10/2008 1:31:53 PM

Lots of institutions have rules for women only, that's not new.

And I don't see how giving up 1 morning or 1 afternoon a week so some muslims and other women can exercise is a huge inconvenience or anything. The more women are encouraged to exercise, the better

3/10/2008 1:34:03 PM

Things like this make some people mad because more and more things these days are catered towards "not offending anyone". If a group of Christians tried to do anything remotely like this, they would be laughed at.

3/10/2008 1:55:05 PM

Yeah, seriously. It's the over political correctness that really gets me. If those 6 women want to exercise somewhere where they can take all their religious gear off then they should find a Muslim gym or something. They said that they're really expanding the options for everyone when they're actually expanding their options at the expense of half the school's population.

3/10/2008 1:58:04 PM

your argument based upon religion might have merit if Harvard made it for muslim women only. But it isn't. it's for all women.

3/10/2008 2:00:48 PM

no matter the brevity of the time allowed for women only, it's the policy that is alarming.

3/10/2008 2:05:20 PM

But that's just the way those 6 women brought it to the people in charge. They used their gender to further their religious motives. Before these women came forth, none of the non-Muslim women cared enough to make something like this happen. Those 6 women are affecting the lives of half the school's population because their personal beliefs don't allow them to take their headscarves off? Most of the men don't even practice Islam. This is in no way fair to them. I understand that this is a small concession, but this is how these things begin. Small increments can eventually lead to a huge impact.

^ Exactly.

[Edited on March 10, 2008 at 2:06 PM. Reason : ]

3/10/2008 2:06:23 PM

^,^^ It's only alarming the gays

[Edited on March 10, 2008 at 2:06 PM. Reason : ]

3/10/2008 2:06:44 PM

I'm sure more than just muslim women will go during those hours. they just didn't have justified reason to complain about it...short of "the ugly meat heads keep hitting on me and won't leave me alone"

3/10/2008 2:11:16 PM

^ Well what about guys who would have gone during those hours? Now they can't.

I was very impressed with some of your posts earlier today terp, but now you're just being a douche.

[Edited on March 10, 2008 at 2:12 PM. Reason : ]

3/10/2008 2:11:44 PM

^^^ you're taking huge leaps in describing the effects of this policy. That article doesn't really note any effects, only hints at a few complaints.

^ who cares? Do you complain about women getting in to clubs for free too?

[Edited on March 10, 2008 at 2:13 PM. Reason : ]

3/10/2008 2:12:29 PM

That's a private business though. The owner can do whatever they want. If I'm paying for my education I want to be assured the same rights as all the other people who pay just as much money as I do.

3/10/2008 2:14:25 PM

its bullshit

get the fuck over it.

your beliefs are fine, but damned if i should have to adjust my life to fit your practices

3/10/2008 2:15:04 PM

This is America. For it to be the great country it can be, it needs to be able to accommodate all faiths and cultures. Stop hating on freedom. Its not a big deal...an hour a day that men cannot go to the gym is nothing. Its no different then if it were closed for maintenance during those hours.

Try living in a country that tells you fuck you because you don't follow the same faith as the majority.

Quote :

"your beliefs are fine, but damned if i should have to adjust my life to fit your practices"

perfect example of Americans taking life for granted

[Edited on March 10, 2008 at 2:17 PM. Reason : .]

3/10/2008 2:16:09 PM

does this policy include men only hours?

jw with all the talk about fairness

[Edited on March 10, 2008 at 2:18 PM. Reason : o wait... we don't really care]

3/10/2008 2:17:27 PM

It's one gym on a private campus that closes to men for a total of 6 hours a week. There are other gyms.

3/10/2008 2:19:56 PM

^^^^^ Harvard is not a public school either. And you do have the same rights as everyone, just at different times. The fact is that it's STILL these women that are at the disadvantage because if they want to exercise the way they want, then they HAVE to come during those 2 times. Where as you or anyone can go any OTHER time you want.

^^^^ So should they have to adjust their lives to fit your practices then? Last time I checked, there was no mandate in the US that all rules had to cater to the christian male cultural ideologies. If you want to live in a place where the gov. caters to one race and culture, go live in Saudi Arabia (or australia). Otherwise, here in the US, we respect other people and their cultures (within the bounds of reason).

[Edited on March 10, 2008 at 2:21 PM. Reason : ]

3/10/2008 2:21:22 PM

I don't think this particular instance is anything to get that riled up about as it doesn't affect me at all. I certainly don't really care either way what happens. But these kinds of things have been happening for several years now and I don't see it as a good trend.

^ I know Harvard isn't a public school, that's why I purposely never said it was. You still have to pay money to go there though. And nothing is preventing them from going during regular hours other than the fact that they're choosing not to. There is no rule that prevents them from going.

[Edited on March 10, 2008 at 2:24 PM. Reason : ]

3/10/2008 2:21:33 PM

I think the men should rally for men-only hours because they don't want to be ogled by women while they lift weights.

3/10/2008 2:24:03 PM

What men do you know?


Harvard is a private institution, it is Harvard's business. Hell, if Harvard wants to deny admission to any particular ethnic, racial, or religious group, as a privately funded institution I think it should be allowed to. This is one gym for 6 hours. Do I think it is pretty stupid? Yeah, but no one is being more than inconvenienced by this whole situation.


I'm more concerned with people who demand that we be tolerant of all religions in public discourse, and thus should not publish anything that might offend one group, than letting a few Muslim women work out in private.

3/10/2008 2:25:29 PM

Quote :

"^^^^ So should they have to adjust their lives to fit your practices then? Last time I checked, there was no mandate in the US that all rules had to cater to the christian male cultural ideologies. If you want to live in a place where the gov. caters to one race and culture, go live in Saudi Arabia (or australia). Otherwise, here in the US, we respect other people and their cultures (within the bounds of reason)."

an hour a day sounds pretty reasonable to me.

Would you be bitching if they closed the gym because the football team needs private workout sessions in the same gym you use?

3/10/2008 2:31:49 PM

^^^^ Their religion prevents them. And your argument about paying doesn't make sense, in the context that it was a response to my question about the clubs. By your logic, you should also be fuming that women get in to clubs free.

Imagine what Christians would do if Harvard had classes on Christmas or Easter. The fact is, whether you like it or not, religious freedom was a core tenet on the founding of America.

^ WTF are you talking about? We're arguing the same side of this

[Edited on March 10, 2008 at 2:33 PM. Reason : ]

3/10/2008 2:32:13 PM

Well, not to be a dick or anything, their religion is their choice. If a dilemma arises because their religion conflicts with gym policy then they have a decision to make. I don't see how taking the rights away from one group (however small those rights may be) is beneficial in any way. It's not a completely unreasonable request aside from the fact that it wasn't a problem before they made it a problem.

I also think comparing a club to one of the finest learning institutions in the world is a poor comparison for obvious reasons.

[Edited on March 10, 2008 at 2:42 PM. Reason : ]

3/10/2008 2:42:00 PM

Quote :

"Hell, if Harvard wants to deny admission to any particular ethnic, racial, or religious group, as a privately funded institution I think it should be allowed to."

I think so too. If I was a dude going to Harvard I'd be pissed though.

3/10/2008 2:46:28 PM

Quote :

"If a dilemma arises because their religion conflicts with gym policy then they have a decision to make."

If this were a regular public gym, sure.

But like any other harvard student, they are paying for the gym too, but if their religion prevents them from using the gym that they're forced to pay for, then it's well within reason for them to ask Harvard to give them their own time, and it's reasonably for Harvard to comply.

3/10/2008 2:46:47 PM

Effectively they are kicking out people who have (I assume) paid the same campus fee to give themselves private access. That financial fairness argument is what would bother me the most. The idea is that people pay campus rec fees for it to be open to everybody. I'm sure there are plenty of women-only gyms if that model does not meet their needs. I think it would be perfectly permissable if they formed a "club" that rented out the gym for an hour or two beyond the normal operating hours, provided they paid for it.

Quote :

"“It’s about expanding the range of choices,” Ibish told TODAY co-host Matt Lauer on Monday. “Women, for all kinds of reasons, don’t want to exercise in front of men. It’s a minority of women, but there are."

You aren't "expanding the range of choices" by excluding people from using the facilities. People driven away by not wanting to see have another demographic around is not on par with barring that demographic from the door.


Also, I think some of you are missing the point that they aren't claiming that they can't work out with men there. They are excluding men from they gym because they would like to work out in more comfortable attire, and they are only interested in doing that with no men around.

[Edited on March 10, 2008 at 3:09 PM. Reason : .]

3/10/2008 2:58:33 PM

Quote :

"I think it would be perfectly permissable if they formed a "club" that rented out the gym for an hour or two beyond the normal operating hours, provided they paid for it."

They're already paying for the gym, but by their religion, they'd go to Hell by using it the way Christians use it. You're basically damning them to Hell AND taking their money by saying they shouldn't be able to have their own time, at all.

The "financial fairness" argument goes both ways, and if you objectively look at it, it's still more fair for the non-women in this case.

[Edited on March 10, 2008 at 3:03 PM. Reason : ]

3/10/2008 3:02:58 PM

Quote :

"They're already paying for the gym, but by their religion, they'd go to Hell by using it the way Christians use it. You're basically damning them to Hell AND taking their money by saying they shouldn't be able to have their own time, at all."

Those are their personal beliefs. Plenty of other women go to the gym without this consequence in mind.

3/10/2008 3:05:02 PM

^ So you're saying that the gym should be for non-muslims only? Very American™ of you.

[Edited on March 10, 2008 at 3:06 PM. Reason : ]

3/10/2008 3:06:14 PM

No, I'm saying that a minority's personal beliefs should not influence the gym policy that affects everyone.

3/10/2008 3:07:07 PM

Well that's an absurd belief then, when the gym is paid for by everyone, including the minorities.

3/10/2008 3:15:01 PM

What if someone said they were religiously opposed to or uncomfortable with using a gym with those of a different race/ethnicity? Should the gym cater to them?


One demographic should not be excluded to provide another demographic a level of comfort.

3/10/2008 3:15:19 PM

^ religious beliefs go beyond merely a "level of comfort." Do you not see this? have you ever been to a church? Do people view god as merely a level of comfort?

An no demographic is being excluded here because they have the gym for the remaining 96.4% of the week. The women get it for a whopping 3.6 percent of the week.

3/10/2008 3:22:47 PM

No, the women get it 100% of the time. The men get it for 96.4% of the time.

3/10/2008 3:26:41 PM

^

The women who can't and the women who don't want to exercise around men.

Apparently too they only implemented it at the least- used gym, on the edge of campus. I haven't been able to find any information on how this women-only time is actually being utilized by women.

Quote :

"The policy only applies to one gym, a facility mainly used for intramurals. Because of its location at the edge of campus, it is the university's least used gym, Mitchell said. The women-only hours are of minimal inconvenience because they are just six out of the 70 hours a week the gym is open, Marine said. "Harvard has a moral and ethical responsibility to make sure our students can stay healthy," she said. "

Quote :

"An Associated Press reporter who went to the gym Monday did not see any Muslim women entering. Efforts to reach some of the women who requested the policy through the Women's Center were unsuccessful. "

And this reporter at least didn't see any muslims going in and out at the time.

Quote :

"Harvard's policy is no different from commercial gyms that cater partially or even exclusively to women, said Ibrahim Hooper, a spokesman for the Washington-based Council on American-Islamic Relations. "The Muslim bashers portray it as the world coming to end, but if women have a couple hours a week to work out in private, I don't see it as a major issue," he said."

And this seems to make sense too.

I don't see why people are getting so bent out of shape about this, except that it's muslims making the request. It's like the people who freak out because Obama's middle name is Hussein.

[Edited on March 10, 2008 at 3:41 PM. Reason : ]

3/10/2008 3:30:34 PM

Quote :

"And this reporter at least didn't see any muslims going in and out at the time."

So they're taking away everyone else's hours and not even utilizing the benefits they've been given?

3/10/2008 3:45:28 PM

^ Well, the chance that it wouldn't be utilized is why this is a trial program. Or are you against those too?

But it's clear that there are more women than just muslims who like the women-only hours. I won't go so far as to infer though that the minority benefitting here is larger than we think, because it'd be interesting to see how this time is actually being utilized.

3/10/2008 3:48:06 PM

Quote :

"no one cares. many colleges and universities have women-only gym times."

Not reading the thread, but I'm curious as to why they'd have women only times. I dont see the point.

3/10/2008 5:10:46 PM

^you should probably read the thread then and not ask stupid questions.

3/10/2008 5:34:30 PM

Quote :

"^ WTF are you talking about? We're arguing the same side of this"

err... i guess i misunderstood your post

3/10/2008 5:35:31 PM

i get the part about the religious non-sense, but nutsmackr seemed to be saying it was common for non-religious reasons. What are the stupid reasons behind that?

3/10/2008 5:43:03 PM

seriously, it's just a few hours. Muslim women. Let the exercise!

3/10/2008 6:00:00 PM

they should have mandatory attendance policies for all women during those hours.

3/10/2008 6:02:16 PM

Quote :

"Try living in a country that tells you fuck you because you don't follow the same faith as the majority."

We do -- this place is crawling with Christian fundamentalists.

3/10/2008 7:02:42 PM

Quote :

"We do -- this place is crawling with Christian fundamentalists."

you don't. Go live some where else for a week then come back here and say thank you to uncle sam.

3/10/2008 7:04:40 PM

Quote :

"^ religious beliefs go beyond merely a "level of comfort." Do you not see this? have you ever been to a church? Do people view god as merely a level of comfort? An no demographic is being excluded here because they have the gym for the remaining 96.4% of the week. The women get it for a whopping 3.6 percent of the week."

Actually, the women arguing for this said they wanted it so they wouldn't have to wear their headscarfs when working out. They never even claimed to have religious objections to working out in the vicinity of men. They would prefer not to, so they can wear different attire. That sure sounds like "level of comfort" to me.

Men are excluded 3.6 percent of the week. Women are excluded 0.0 percent of the week.

You never answered my other question:

Quote :

"What if someone said they were religiously opposed to or uncomfortable with using a gym with those of a different race/ethnicity? Should the gym cater to them?"

3/10/2008 8:05:37 PM