Quote :

"Part of counterinsurgency is letting soldiers themselves be Americans in the most romantic sense of the word. The American soldier is the most dangerous man in the world, and the Iraqis had to learn that before they would trust or respect us. but it was when they understood that these great-hearted warriors, who so enjoyed killing the enemy, are even happier helping to build a school or to make a neighborhood safe that we really got their attention."

Page 74 from Michael Yon's book "Moment of Truth in Iraq"

For anyone that wants to know why we could not make any real progress before the surge, why the surge has worked so spectacularly, and why Petraeus might be the great general of our generation, this book is a must read.

4/27/2008 9:08:52 PM

and what if i want to know the truth?

4/27/2008 9:20:13 PM

Does anyone else think that simplifying the Iraq war down to 'is it good or bad' and the surge down to ' is it working or not working' not useful?

Like most things these actions are not all good or all bad. They are somewhere in between. The media reduces it down the same way. Its like people want it in the most simplest terms so they dont have to process the information and decide for themselves if they support it or not.

that being said does this book seem to do the same thing or does it do better than other media outlets with information on the war.

4/27/2008 10:48:10 PM

Well, this book isnt all about beating off the surge. It goes into detail why we failed early on and the chances we missed.

4/28/2008 8:19:17 AM

Quote :

"For anyone that wants to know why we could not make any real progress before the surge, why the surge has worked so spectacularly, and why Petraeus might be the great general of our generation, this book is a must read."

LMAO. Your statement in a nutshell sums up the idiocy of American society and their lack of strategic thinking capabilities and is why our country is declining.

We cannot tell if the surge has worked for at least 10 years. Our success is not dependent on anything our soldiers have done. Our success, as defined by President Bush, is building a lasting democracy. And the success of that democracy is not dependent on Americans, it is dependent on Iraqis. If the Iraqis will not accept this new institution and resort back to violence and coups and assassinations within the next 10 years for who comes to power, every soldier that died in Iraq died in vain. What good is building a school if it's just going to get blown up later?

With Iraq, the liberals are reactionary assholes with no guiding plans that are against something cause the other side came up with it. Conservatives on the other hand were just quick to declare victory to make it seem like their plan had no flaws and so they can just explain off anything not all rosey that may have been directly or indirectly caused by them, meaning they have no overreaching plan or accountability. "Mission Accomplished" being the most prominent example.

Reason 1 why I think Iraq will resort back to violence and coups and assassinations: there's no one in Iraqi political circles that has shown the nerve and will to be the leader to rise above the factional infighting.

Reason 2 why I think Iraq will resort back to violence and coups and assassinations: the dumbsh*t Republicans and the dumbsh*t Democrats.

4/28/2008 9:02:06 AM

"MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!"

oh wait that was like over 4 years ago nvm

4/28/2008 9:49:47 AM

We have failed the Iraqis, ourselves, and the world. Let's accept this and move on.

4/28/2008 10:25:06 AM

damnit, i thought this was going to be a blank thread.

4/28/2008 10:41:09 AM

Iraqis may squander the opportunity for a redo that the surge has given them. I just hope that the sectarian fighting started and excited by AQI left a bad enough impression on the leaders that they make progress VIA debate and political process vs coups and assassination.

The recent political progress, and the Sunni commitment to return to parliament make me think that this is the case for at least the short term. But for 10-20 years, who knows.

4/28/2008 10:52:20 AM

anybody who thinks "the surge" is going to have long-term benefits is nuts. If we want to reap the long-term benefits, unfortunately we need an escalation, not a surge. Increase troop levels to 250k for 2 years and see what happens



[Edited on April 28, 2008 at 11:08 AM. Reason : .]

4/28/2008 11:08:27 AM

Quote :

"Increase troop levels to 250k for 2 years and see what happens"

what? the reinstitution of the draft? american civil war II? the bankrupting of the entire united states?

wat?

4/28/2008 11:50:09 AM

But we're defending our freedom!

4/28/2008 12:03:08 PM

^ haha good going

Quote :

"not a surge. Increase troop levels to 250k for 2 years and see what happens "

While i agree that an "increased" troop level would be beneficial; i think it is time put our egos aside and request troop assistance from our friends in the middle east. After all they have a lot more interest and a lot more at risk on the direction that Iraq takes this day forward.

4/28/2008 12:47:47 PM

Lets not forget the surge in Iraqi security forces as well. That is the key for us to lower the number of troops we have.

4/28/2008 12:55:04 PM

Quote :

" what? the reinstitution of the draft? american civil war II? the bankrupting of the entire united states? wat? "

i'm not saying that's what we should do or that it is feasible. Personally, I would rather withdraw and let them fight it out between themselves. It looks like they're going to continue fighting one way or another, and as long as they are, they might as well not be killing americans while they're at it.

But this seemingly indefinite troop levels of 130-170k just isn't going to cut it in the long run. Obviously we should have gone in with more troops. Obviously more troops should have been added in late 2003. Obviously a 10% increase in 2007 helped, but only temporarily, because by the definition of a "surge", that level will come back down. So our options now are 1) stay with the status quo of ~150k troops and the fighting will continue with Americans dying at a steady pace, 2) GTFO and let them take care of it themselves, or 3) escalate to Vietnam troop levels and turn the whole country into a military state.

4/28/2008 1:39:21 PM

why cant we just put someone in charge that is on our side, and have them run the country for us...its worked in the past lol

4/28/2008 1:47:34 PM

USA #1

4/28/2008 1:50:34 PM

Quote :

"oh wait that was like over 4 years ago nvm"

5 years on Thursday!

4/28/2008 1:57:26 PM

ive had mixed reports come in on the quality of the iraqi security forces. i can imagine they dont have the training that our guys do.

4/28/2008 2:13:31 PM

They are like zerglings. You just need alot of them

4/28/2008 4:21:22 PM

The initial quote scares me. So, American soldiers are action heroes? There's no tension between being a bloodthirsty killer and a school builder. They shoot bad guys in the morning and kiss babies in evening. Everything works out.

4/28/2008 4:43:17 PM

Someone starts shooting at me and I can shoot back, motherfucking counterstrike skills will fuck that guy up.

Any one of you would kill if forced to.

Like Rambo says.

4/28/2008 5:08:00 PM

Quote :

"So, American soldiers are action heroes?"

quite a few of them are exactly that.

4/28/2008 5:24:33 PM

Quote :

"The initial quote scares me. So, American soldiers are action heroes? There's no tension between being a bloodthirsty killer and a school builder. They shoot bad guys in the morning and kiss babies in evening. Everything works out."

Im telling you guys, you really need to read that book. Many stories that are just amazing. I guarantee some of them will find it into film.

I hope to god Bruce Willis reads this book if he makes his movie like he wants.

4/28/2008 5:31:01 PM

Unfortunately, killing the bad guys and playing nice with the kiddies is a delicate balancing act. Many soldiers develop an us-versus-them mentality.

4/28/2008 5:38:12 PM

That is probably somewhat true.

But an important part of Iraq right now and in the recent past is that the children are the soldiers protection. If children are mobbing them for candy pictures or anything, 99% of the time nobody wants or is trying to attack them. This is also significant because the local population lets the children interact with them. I will say it again, the US army is the most respected institution in Iraq. The importance of this for long term success cannot be understated.

AQI learned their lesson the hard way killing the kids that mob the soldiers.

4/28/2008 5:44:26 PM

Quote :

"The American soldier is the most dangerous well armed man in the world"

4/28/2008 6:20:39 PM

^ lol

ppl still think that kind of dumb shit huh? well the more liberal america becomes the truer your statement becomes diamondace. here here.

4/28/2008 6:22:23 PM

so thats why they give candy to the kids. they use them as a type of human force field.

4/28/2008 6:25:24 PM

sigh

If you people really want to know what is going on overthere

or if you want to know why whats going to happen is going to happen

or if you want something to read on the shitter

or if you just want to read about good war stories

read this

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Moment-of-Truth-in-Iraq/Michael-Yon/e/9780980076325/?itm=1

$14 dollars to learn a ground eye view of where this thing is going.

4/28/2008 7:50:44 PM

Quote :

"and what if i want to know the truth?"

4/29/2008 11:09:28 AM

you realize all this is just for control of resources and to protect emerging markets

4/29/2008 12:24:04 PM

Quote :

""and what if i want to know the truth?"

You wont get it from the mainstream media, believe me.

Quote :

"Of course we swept them off the main battlefields quickly, but that could be and often was chalked up to our money and machines. It was only after, when they saw that our people were better street fighters, too, and that American combat soldiers would match or outlast them in the heat, that they began to understand. At this point, the man-to-man respect was there. And so, when someone like CPT Morris told Iraqi soldiers to stop doing idiotic things to people's property, something they already knew was wrong, their respect for Americans grew. Day after day, Iraqis came to Americans asking for justice, because they saw men like CPY Sheldon morris act justly and make their justice stick with strength. In Iraq our military has come to be viewed as a great tribe."

You guys are missing out.

4/29/2008 8:40:17 PM

Humor me here

Quote :

"One problem was that it wasn't really possible to explain why we were winning now without laying out in excruciating detail why we had been losing before. That was the general's job, and the people whose job it was showed no inclination to do it. Maybe they still did not understand. We'd spent billions of dollars to protect ourselves against roadside bombs in Iraq, while mostly failing to cultivate the most effective defense of all: an Iraqi citizen with a cell phone. We spent hundreds of billions of dollars on combat operations that might have been avoided if we'd learned from our success in Mosul in 2003, rather than compounding our blunders of 2004. But then we'd gotten, miraculously, our second chance. And we were making the most of it. Cell phones? Iraqis are e-mailing our guys Google Earth maps to show where the terrorists are. With the increasing support of citizens and the growing prowess of the Iraqi Army, American troops have been able not only to leverage their combat effectiveness but spend more time in cop-on-the-beat mode, building closer ties to their communities, which then translates into beings more effective in working on local civil affairs issues. Neighborhoods that had been war zones as late as July 2007 were now peaceful. Schools and markets had reopened. The scars of war were still visible everywhere-wrecked buildings, jersey barriers and checkpoints, concertina wire, bullet holes and bomb craters. And there was still much work to be done. A few catastrophic attacks could have destroyed a great deal of progress, which is why in August, as a plan for this book was born, I told my publisher that is was far too early to declare victory. But it was definitely time to declare serious progress. It is said that we should learn form our mistakes. But success can teach us just as much. Many Americans, at least for the moment, seemed uninterested in that lesson. I returned to Iraqi convinces that if we didn't take our second chance and run with it as fast as we could, we-and our new friends in Iraq-would be lost forever. General Petraeus seemed to have reached the same conclusion."

[Edited on April 29, 2008 at 9:26 PM. Reason : k]

4/29/2008 9:26:35 PM

Yeah, things are going great in Iraq

Quote :

"April 30 (Bloomberg) -- Iraq's Nassriya Water Treatment Plant, the country's largest reconstruction project, is a failure so far because it isn't delivering sufficient water to enough people, a new audit says."

More here

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=washingtonstory&sid=aqM9vF5GfX.M

Tens of thousands of Iraqi dead, 4000+ American soldiers dead, many times that seriously injured, hundreds of billions of dollars spent, and nothing to show for it. The US is not safer, the lives of Iraqis are worse, and there's no end in sight.

4/30/2008 11:42:53 AM

USA#1

4/30/2008 12:03:13 PM

Yes, to have no end in sight there must me no progress.

Then I guess the Iraqi government isn’t taking control of its country, they aren’t destroying the Mahdi army, they aren’t destroying AQI, the Sunni's aren’t returning to the government, they aren’t having provincial elections, they didn’t cleanse the army of Sadr agents, they didn’t secure Basra and the ports, aside from the Mahdi army, attacks are way up everywhere, AQI leadership hasn’t taken huge blows in the last several months, large number of Iraqis are not joining the Iraqi security forces, Iraq is not taking on all of the major reconstruction projects, Iraqi hasn’t increased their spending in all areas while reducing US spending, and finally for this to be true, the media actually gives a damn about the significant progress that has been made.

Progress.In.Iraqi.Is.Not.A.Fabrication

[Edited on April 30, 2008 at 4:04 PM. Reason : .]

4/30/2008 4:02:23 PM

http://www.clipsyndicate.com/publish/video/580447/first_person_the_finances_of_rebuilding_iraq?wpid=2146

Look, I am making it all up!

4/30/2008 4:25:36 PM

I am typing these quotes, and wish I didnt have to. This book should be read by you if you think you know something about Iraq.

This is more about Troop relations with Iraqis.

Quote :

"There are lots of kitchen accidents in Iraq. Kids get burned. American soldiers cant take it when they see a kid get burned. If they are in the neighborhoods on a mission and they see a burned kid, they will cancel the mission to get the kid to an American aid station, which, technically, they shouldn't be doing. But a lot of tough soldiers get weak kneed when they see a kid in trouble. They'll shoot insurgents all day and all night and cant get enough of it, but when they see a kid hurt, they'll stop and drive off with the kid. Thousands upon thousands of these obviously spontaneous actions had a profound effect on how the Iraqis see us. They knew we did a lot of stupid and overbearing things, even brutal and criminal things at times. But they also could not deny that, on the whole, our people had a heart for them, or at least for their kids. And who couldn't like Iraqi kids? Practically everywhere the kids love to see the soldiers and the soldiers loved to see the kids."

There are to many truths in the bookabout the war in Iraq that you guys need to understand for you to get my incessant whining about Iraq. In 20 years when there are history channel programs dedicated to Iraq, hopefully you will figure it out.

[Edited on April 30, 2008 at 6:20 PM. Reason : dasd]

4/30/2008 6:14:39 PM

Ok, this is going to be my final quote from the book, which you can find here.

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Moment-of-Truth-in-Iraq/Michael-Yon/e/9780980076325/?itm=1

In case you need it, http://michaelyon-online.com/ , there is his website.

I would like to say something about to this book. IT IS NOT RIGHT WING CONSERVATIVE BULLSHIT! And it isnt liberal horse shit either. I wanted Kerry to win the last election(see those threads here, yea big mistake, I know.). I have been convinced by the information coming out of Iraq VIA Yon's website and all the others in my thread that I need to spread the info so I think I help things by making people more aware(hopefully) and they can made educated opinions.

It is a criticism of how the war was handled and a objective appraisal about the way it is being handled now.

This is the end of the book. The closing statement where he sums up what he has learned from 4 years embedded on the ground in Iraq.

Quote :

"One of the saddest things about the Iraq War has been the political polarization back home. There is no doubt that it was an elective war and poorly executed. But some of our own countrymen want to see us lose this war. For many people is seems to be more important they win the argument than for justice to prevail and Iraq be free. On the other had, those who support the war must remember that critics were often right. Without the critics we might never have made the great changes of 2007, and the war would be lost today. Since December 2004, I have been with combat soldiers all over Iraq. I have been on countless combat missions, patrols, and meetings, spoken to Americans of all ranks and to Iraqis with incredibly diverse backgrounds. I wanted our side to win, but knew that neither mindless cheer leading nor mindless pessimism would help. We can win this war. And if we do, it will be a victory of the same magnitude as the fall of the Soviet Union. It will not be victory for the Republican Party. It will not be a victory for America and Great Britain and the others "against" Iraq. It will be a victory for freedom and justice. It will be a victory for Iraqis and for the world, and only then will it be a victory for us. A stable, reasonably democratic, and friendly Arab country will have been established in the heart of the Middle East. Al Qaeda will have been defeated not only militarily but morally, rejected by the very Muslims they claim to represent. We can win. But we can still lose. And if we lose, Iraq will be the worst foreign policy disaster in our history. Imagine Vietnam, then multiply it be al Qaeda and Iran. This book covered a time in which our men and women in Iraq changed the course of history. They did it against the odds, contrary to all expectations. The American combat soldier is responsible for this historic achievement. There are those who fought. And those who didn't. Our soldiers often said, "The military is at war. America is at the mall." It has been our soldiers' choice, but they saw it as their duty. And so they lived through fifteen-month deployments, multiple combat tours, often re-enlisting instead of going home to their families, watching snipers shoot their friends, and IEDs tear bodies apart. Some came home on Angel Flights, mourned by their families and comrades in arms, buried in flag-draped coffins while a bugle played Taps. For the rest of America, another dead soldier was just a scroll on the bottom of the television screen- not even a name, just a statistic, or worse, another argument for surrender. American combat soldiers don't want pity. They're ready to fight to the end; they just want it to be for tonight. They have been fighting for two nations, one of which didn't seem to notice. The Iraqis noticed. Even as I write these final words from Mosul, wish much fighting still ahead, the idea of bringing Iraq along into the community of responsible nations has never seemed more achievable than it does this morning. The war isn't over yet. Victory remains in question. The choice is ours, the time is now-for a moment of truth in Iraq. What are we going to do?"

It is my belief that this books title, The Moment of Truth In Iraq, has more than one meaning. One meaning is that it is referring to a specific moment or tipping point where Iraq can go either way, into perpetual chaos, or into a relatively stable pseudo-democracy/democracy. This point might be in the future, past, or now. Only history will tell. The other meaning I take from it is the importance of truth about Iraq. And that this book is a moment of truth about Iraq when read, as viewed from the ground.

I ask people I work with what they think about it and nobody has a serious opinion about it. They either don't know anything about whats going on, or are to frustrated with past events to pay attention. This book explains most everything that has led up to this point and why we are at such a critical point.

Those that have visited these threads vary from making one line comments, to raising very realistic and objective concerns. The ladder is more of who this book is for.

And for those who read all this,

Posting this stuff is very therapeutic for me.

FLAME AWAY



[Edited on April 30, 2008 at 8:47 PM. Reason : [Edited on April 30, 2008 at 8:46 PM. Reason : linkplzkkthx]]

4/30/2008 8:45:45 PM

MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!!!

5/1/2008 8:23:13 AM