than you... How can you get rid of that unwanted and awkward air of "superiority" and "pretentiousness" that people think you have based solely off of your educational background and job title?

I'm going to be working with a bunch of guys who are part of my company's line and substation maintenance division, and while they don't have much of a formal education beyond a technical degree (if any degree at all), they have decades of technical experience that makes them invaluable to my company. I'm on the other end of the spectrum, with the formal education but practically no technical experience out in the field. My company's solution for people like me is to do this apprenticeship with the linesmen. I'm there to learn from them, to help them out, and likewise I hope they'll take an interest in some of the things that I'm doing.

Some of the guys, especially some of the more senior technicians (well into their 50s) are extremely bitter towards me and snub me off as some pretentious know-it-all asshole who is only working with them because I'm required to. Well, it's not required, and it's something that I wanted to do because I don't know everything!

That's not the attitude that I've had, and I have tried to be real careful about accidentally sounding that way. For the most part I've avoided talking about college and graduate school except when asked about it, and have made a point to ask them lots of questions, not only to give them an opportunity for them to show off their skills, but also because I have a genuine interest in what they have to say. I treat them with a lot of respect, just try to be myself, and although I know I am sometimes a jerk on TWW, in real life I'm actually easy going and am very easy to get along with. I try to talk about things we have in common: sports, tv, news, etc., just to keep the conversation going and to lighten the mood.

I'm also not one of those guys who is scared of getting dirty and just sits on the sidelines and watches as they do all the hard work. For the past 4 days I've pulled cable, wired transformers, etc., and have been covered in dust, dirt, and grease from head to toe. Still, some are bitter towards me, although one guy has started to accept me for who I am and is becoming a pretty good friend.

I don't expect these guys to become my absolute best friends, but I would like some tips on how I can more quickly break down this barrier that these guys have built between us. I know there's some people on here who have faced similar issues. And I'm sure that there have been people working with them before me who were total assholes, and just over time the technicians became bitter.

This is an awesome opportunity for me and I don't want this to interfere with my ability to learn everything I can during the short time I'll be working with them.

5/1/2008 11:39:19 PM

its just like a junior military officer and his senior enlisted and NCO's...................best advice, be humble and take a valid interest in their job and skills. also, finding common ground to shoot the shit about doesn't hurt either, sports, tv, etc

5/1/2008 11:45:11 PM

this has potential. i was told by my ex that i was having this issue (unknowingly). apparently i came off as too educated and proper without even trying. mind you this includes me hanging out, watching tv, cursing, drinking, etc.

interesting topic.

5/1/2008 11:47:32 PM

This is the same problem young officers have going into the military. When I get to my ship, I'm going to have a Chief working for me who's been in the Navy for 20 years. So, do what I plan on doing - make it clear that you trust them to guide you, that you want them to teach you. I know you're gonna have a PhD, but all the schooling in the world won't give much of an idea how to handle the real world stuff. So trust in their experience and be willing to learn their way. Don't go in thinking you know everything in the book, because how often do they consult their books? But yea, treat them with respect and you won't get shot in the back in the jungle in 'Nam by your own men. (that's what happened to douche junior officers in the military)

[Edited on May 1, 2008 at 11:49 PM. Reason : ^^yea. >.<]

5/1/2008 11:48:57 PM

there's no real magic bullet. having something besides work to discuss can work. the problem is you can be percieved as an inconvinience to them. They have to train you, watch your back and they get nothing out of it because you're going to be gone in a few weeks/months. I guess in my situation I just gained respect over time (~2.5 years) and being right in a few key situations. It sounds like your situation is a temporary one, I don't know if you can break that barrier in a temporary position.

5/1/2008 11:50:54 PM

i believe the film "platoon" is shown to west point cadets, and Lt Wolf in the film is used as a case study of how not to behave as a junior officer.

5/1/2008 11:52:35 PM

i agree, i think the main focus here should be to make them BELIEVE they are making a difference and that you are genuinely interested in what they have to offer, even if you are not...

people generally like to share their experience and knowledge with others, particularly when that person knows their students are eager to learn.

just go out of your way to appear interested, buy them lunch, ask questions, and get involved

they should eat it up eventually - if you appear sincere about it

[Edited on May 2, 2008 at 12:00 AM. Reason : grammar]

5/1/2008 11:59:36 PM

Remember the phrase "No one cares about your education except your mama"
Funny as it sounds, I'm serious.

Education alone will earn you very little.... Treat the guys like human beings, and take a genuine interest in what they have to teach you. Don't talk about college - it's like being in college & talking about high school. No one cares. Really. If they happen to ask, try to divert their attention to something along the lines of our sports teams & how you can't wait for Football to start.

The only reason the "superiority" and "pretentiousness" mess is there to begin with is based off their impressions of you (& the way you act) -or- the fact that some jerk off has made an ass of themself before you that left them with an 'ahh crap, not this again' feeling. In this case, maybe a little of both. If it wasn't useful - you wouldn't be going, but they need to feel more from you than fulfilling what they see as a requirement - by you genuinely caring.

Observe 90%, Offer 10% in your opinion if it differs
Listen 90%, Speak 10%

^ Being aware of it is most of the battle.... Good luck!

5/2/2008 12:03:05 AM

Best advice a retired USMC Master Sergeant gave me a few years ago:

"If you ever join the Marines as an officer, when you first get out into the field, grab one of the old grizzled Gunnery Sergeants or Master Sergeants under your commend and get them to take you under their wing and teach you the ropes."

I haven't joined the Marines, but that sounds like applicable advice in this particular situation.

[Edited on May 2, 2008 at 12:08 AM. Reason : ]

5/2/2008 12:07:09 AM

I would think making fun of your degrees might help like when you mess up say stuff like:

"well a whole lot my fancy degree did for me there"

5/2/2008 12:13:28 AM

Truth be told, time is all there is to it. You can't rush trust.

If these guys have been shit on by guys "like you" before, they're going to assume you're going to shit on them as well. If you're going out of your way to be nice, you're coming across as patronizing. If you're an asshole, you're just another college boy.

If you're asking a lot of questions, some guys view that as prying and not trusting, so be aware of that. I always explained that if I knew what they did and why they did it, then you could shield them from whatever bullshit came down from up top. At the same time, you can't just go jumping in and doing their job. They take pride in the fact that it is their job, not yours.

Finally, always accept responsibility for any failings in the department and pass praise on to everyone but yourself. They'll appreciate you taking a round to the chest more than all the bullshiting you do about sports.


Beyond that, all you can do is consistently treat them with respect, stay in your lane, and don't let them run all over you.

[Edited on May 2, 2008 at 12:20 AM. Reason : oh, and you are ALWAYS being watched. Always.]

5/2/2008 12:14:02 AM

^^ don't do this. An analogy would be a rich person talking shit about their Porsche to a person who drives a Honda. The other person would take the porsche over what they have right now.

It comes off as fake and transparent.


Just be good at what you know you can be good at, and everyone, even support workers, will respect you.

[Edited on May 2, 2008 at 12:47 AM. Reason : ,]

5/2/2008 12:29:28 AM

Another:

"Do the right thing, all the time, no matter the personal cost to you."

In this case -- don't forget about all the little guys when you climb up the corporate ladder.

5/2/2008 12:29:30 AM

Oh, and you don't seem like the kind of guy who would do this, but generic advice to the crowd, don't assume you're smarter than the guys working under you. I've met some absolutely brilliant people whom the education system simply failed. Treat them like their idiots and you'll wind up being the idiot.

5/2/2008 12:30:57 AM

Quote :

"Treat them like their idiots and you'll wind up being the idiot."

case in point

5/2/2008 12:34:42 AM

ouch.


I speak from experience though, and as we all know, experience comes from bad decisions.

5/2/2008 12:36:55 AM

Fuck those peasants. Piss down on them from your ivory tower.

Honestly I just feel like friendly non-work related banter is going to make or break it. My only other point is to make it look like you're fairly self-reliant, competent, and have a good work ethic; if I were in their position the only thing that would piss me off is thinking that you got a better job because of a degree, even though you have no idea what you're doing.

Don't be season 4 Ryan from The Office.

5/2/2008 12:37:30 AM

the real trick is not seeming pretentious when you really are dealing with a fucking moron

5/2/2008 12:56:10 AM

I've spent the last couple of years at various automotive test facilities, and learned that "imitation is the best form of flattery" really works well in getting along with the technicians. sounds like you are on your way by letting them know you are interested in what they do by becoming one of them. you'll gain the greatest respect the quickest by showing the guys on the floor that you don't mind working hard and are capable of keeping up with them. listen to their ideas and genuinely consider their suggestions. you are always going to get a couple of those "dumbass engineers, think they know everything" characters, but i think they generally have a chip on their shoulder and will probably never come around to accepting you.

lots of technician level guys are very set in their ways and are completely 100% positive that their method is the most efficient and effective method. while you may or may not agree, you aren't going to change their minds, so just save yourself the hassle. i find this especially true in machine shops.

another thing that falls in line with the imitation bit is i tend to subconsciously adjust the way i speak/interact to the level of those i'm working with. if they are super serious, i tend to be a little more direct and straight laced. if they are laid back, then we'll joke around and shoot the shit while working. also, don't over simplify explanations or people will get the feeling you are being patronizing or talking down to them. don't talk over people's heads with lots of jargon and technical mumbo jumbo, you'll come off as sounding pretentious. in other words, there's no need to give hundred dollar answer to a 10cent question.

5/2/2008 12:57:41 AM

Quote :

"Truth be told, time is all there is to it. You can't rush trust. If these guys have been shit on by guys "like you" before, they're going to assume you're going to shit on them as well. If you're going out of your way to be nice, you're coming across as patronizing. If you're an asshole, you're just another college boy. If you're asking a lot of questions, some guys view that as prying and not trusting, so be aware of that. I always explained that if I knew what they did and why they did it, then you could shield them from whatever bullshit came down from up top. At the same time, you can't just go jumping in and doing their job. They take pride in the fact that it is their job, not yours. Finally, always accept responsibility for any failings in the department and pass praise on to everyone but yourself. They'll appreciate you taking a round to the chest more than all the bullshiting you do about sports. Beyond that, all you can do is consistently treat them with respect, stay in your lane, and don't let them run all over you. [Edited on May 2, 2008 at 12:20 AM. Reason : oh, and you are ALWAYS being watched. Always.] "

Took the words right out of my mouth.

Being "one of the guys" has its place, but that won't solve all your problems by itself, and if you're in charge, you DO need to be set apart to a certain degree. If you're in charge, take charge...but don't be a dumbass. Those dudes know a lot of shit that you don't (although you'll know some things that they don't. that's why both of you got hired)...and yeah, it'll just take some time.

5/2/2008 1:07:27 AM

continue the relationships even after your short time out there with them

lead by example

dont be a dumbass

5/2/2008 1:13:02 AM

Yeah this is a good topic.

I am an officer in the sub fleet and I see good examples of this all the time. It seems like there are several spectrums of leadership. There are the guys who are straight laced, strictly by the book type people who never really acknowledge the people working under them as actual people, but simply "tools" that must be used to accomplish a task. On the opposite end, there are guys who are more pals with their supposed subordinates than bosses, which can be equally bad as the last situation. Obviously the right place is somewhere in the middle. Personally, I fall more towards the second example than the first. I get along with the people that work for me great, but I really hate giving them bad news or telling them they are doing something wrong because I fully recognize how hard it must be for them if I (with virtually zero experience with what they do) are correcting them.

I suppose the only real piece of advice I can give you is to respect them and learn from them. Eventually most of the guys will come around, but it takes a while for them to realize that you are genuinely a good person and not out to get them. Unfortunately there will be a select few who will always resent your position regardless of how you act. I know there are guys that just hate officers in my profession. There's really not much that I can do about that, and I have learned over time that these guys honestly aren't worth my time. You can't please everyone all the time, so your job is to get better at your job and help them become better at your job.

I had a good point when I started typing but it kind of got lost at some point... anyway, good luck.

5/2/2008 1:23:15 AM

I do the same kind of thing you are doing; weeks of field work with the line crews, sub maint., and relay techs. They have all been very positive and there has never really been that feeling of awkwardness. I ask lots of questions and try to learn from their experience. I just make sure to get involved as much as I can, and make sure they know I still have a lot to learn about how things work in the field. I usually take along a camera and take pics of the equipment for reference later.

Just don't complain about the weather. They work in it daily and don't want to hear anything about your air conditioned office.

5/2/2008 1:27:50 AM

^^ that's what i was trying to get at

5/2/2008 1:34:37 AM

Quote :

"This is the same problem young officers have going into the military. When I get to my ship, I'm going to have a Chief working for me who's been in the Navy for 20 years. So, do what I plan on doing - make it clear that you trust them to guide you, that you want them to teach you."

As someone who has been on the other end of this, be careful. More often than not, the 'Chiefs are the backbone of the Navy' and 'boots on the deckplates' spiels come across as condescension.

JCASHFAN and FeebleMinded have the best points, IMHO. Everybody knows you're the new guy and nobody expects you to be perfect. They do expect you to be an officer and a leader. It's a tough spot, especially for a JO. As FeebleMinded said, you have to find that spot between being everyone's friend and being completely detached.

5/2/2008 7:01:21 AM

Quote :

"Honestly I just feel like friendly non-work related banter is going to make or break it. My only other point is to make it look like you're fairly self-reliant, competent, and have a good work ethic; if I were in their position the only thing that would piss me off is thinking that you got a better job because of a degree, even though you have no idea what you're doing."

Mr. Joshua

* Don't concern yourself with making friends--but be friendly.

* Some other-than-work-related conversations are obviously going to happen and this is to be expected. But don't share too much personal information--this is not a social club. Keep it light and tight.

* Be "fairly self-reliant, competent, and have a good work ethic"--keep your attitude, appearance, and job performance professional at all times.

* Some are going to think of you as the "college boy" no matter what you do. Focus on your job, don't be so concerned about what they think, and do all of the above.

You'll do just fine. Good luck.

5/2/2008 7:33:28 AM

This thread should be in a "Best of TWW" section, great advice. I don't have much to add except that it seems like you haven't been in this position for very long. You're doing all the right things, just continue to do them and give it time. Sometimes lots of time.

5/2/2008 8:05:56 AM

I had a similar situation when I started working in construction.

the biggest shocker to the guys was then I rolled up my sleeves and showed them (over a period of time) that I wasnt afraid to get dirty and do their jobs. that and always show their experience respect. early in your career, you will likely defer to their opinions and that is ok...because they likely know better than you.

5/2/2008 8:11:03 AM

Ask them questions. That is the key from what i have seen. it acknowledges their intelligence and lets them feel like they are training you. I have worked in metal fabrication shops and machine shops with some very (formally) uneducated people, but yet many of the older guys had a wealth of knowledge. I asked them questions and tried to learn from them as much as possible. It really seemed to help.

5/2/2008 9:02:08 AM

this thread has given me a lot of good advice

thanks, wolfweb. thwolfweb.

5/2/2008 9:03:11 AM

Quote :

"I am an officer in the sub fleet and I see good examples of this all the time. It seems like there are several spectrums of leadership. There are the guys who are straight laced, strictly by the book type people who never really acknowledge the people working under them as actual people, but simply "tools" that must be used to accomplish a task. On the opposite end, there are guys who are more pals with their supposed subordinates than bosses, which can be equally bad as the last situation. Obviously the right place is somewhere in the middle. Personally, I fall more towards the second example than the first. I get along with the people that work for me great, but I really hate giving them bad news or telling them they are doing something wrong because I fully recognize how hard it must be for them if I (with virtually zero experience with what they do) are correcting them."

yeah i remember hearing that when I was in some NCO school in the marines.
http://www.nwlink.com/~donclark/leader/leadstl.html
some situations call for the extremes, but the middle is a good place to be.

5/2/2008 9:16:50 AM

Go out with them one night to a shitty bar and get uber shitty with them.

5/2/2008 9:48:53 AM

Act like you generally want to learn from them. Because, in fact, you can. Try to talk about non-work related stuff to build some collegiality as well. Be professional, but don't act like you are better than them.

5/2/2008 10:34:34 AM

If you're their superior

Then you should act as such.

If, however, your ranking is the same. Then mingle.

5/2/2008 10:43:38 AM

well, definitely dont refer to them as "less educated"

5/2/2008 12:38:17 PM

The first thing to do is realize that you were fortunate enough to be able to get an education and just because you are more educated doesn't mean that you are better than they are. If you're they're boss make sure they know that then you won't have any problems.

5/2/2008 12:59:55 PM

Just be yourself and be comfortable with who you are. That is the best advice I can give you.

If you try too hard to relate to them you will not seem like a very genuine person. If you aren't snobby or pretentious you have nothing to hide. You should never be ashamed of your education or intelligence.

There should be a mutual respect between you and them. Do your part and expect the same from them. If you don't get it then at least you can know it is because of their faults and not your own

5/2/2008 1:32:57 PM

Quote :

"The first thing to do is realize that you were fortunate enough to be able to get an education and just because you are more educated doesn't mean that you are better than they are. "

Incorrect. Having more education then another person does make me better then them.

[Edited on May 2, 2008 at 1:57 PM. Reason : >.<]

5/2/2008 1:57:08 PM

Quote :

"Incorrect. Having more education then another person does make me better then them."

lolz

5/2/2008 1:59:33 PM

We all know how much blue collar working class folks love automobiles. So be sure to brag and show off your new BMW or Land Rover to your co-workers. As I am sure they will be captivated and envious to your purchase that does not compare to their 99 Ford Explorer or their 95 Toyota Camry.

5/2/2008 2:10:32 PM

i haven't read the complete thread but I'm in a similar situation where i went from just a general IT guy to a main person in sales (its only the CEO, president of sales and me--and we're at around 150 employees right now) so there were some people royally pissed that i got that opportunity and they didn't... part of my training was to do all the other jobs in the plant so i'd really know what i was selling and what it took to get things things done day to day at the lowest jobs. i could tell a lot of ppl were pretty pissed they were having to train me / work with me for a day just so i could be their boss the next week..

my point being is one way i got them to 'accept' me more is I take the first 15-30 minutes of every morning to walk around and talk to everybody out on the line, brought them breakfast a few times and basically just treat them like normal ppl. most of the people work their ass off for a lot less than i'd ever be ok with.. sooner or later they'll either quit being judgmental or not--some peoples mines you aren't going to change no matter what you do. just be glad you are where you are and you know you tried being as reasonable as you can be with them

5/2/2008 2:15:57 PM

no offense, but the fact that you made this thread and had to ask pretty much means you are already 'that guy' and there is nothing you can do about it.

5/2/2008 2:40:34 PM

yeah this thread says it all; i enjoy how the "less educated" is in quotations.

5/2/2008 2:46:03 PM

I'm sure he put quotes because they aren't necessarily less knowledgeable, just less formally educated..

[Edited on May 2, 2008 at 3:05 PM. Reason : I mean, they don't have a phd..but obviously the experience is huge]

5/2/2008 3:05:03 PM

makes no difference if they have a phd or not. doesn't make them any "less" than you or less intelligent

5/2/2008 3:08:57 PM

he didnt say it did

5/2/2008 3:32:36 PM

intelligent is not synonymous with educated.

5/2/2008 3:34:23 PM

yes he did. making a thread titled 'working with people who are "less educated"' says it all. There is no difference therefore there is no need to act differently around them. Now if he's asking how to act thats because he normally acts like a pretentiousness prick.

5/2/2008 3:38:33 PM

you're either trolling or a fucking retard

edit: he made the clear distinction between education and intelligence and stated how much a lot of these people know from experience that he does not from being just educated

[Edited on May 2, 2008 at 3:41 PM. Reason : asdf]

5/2/2008 3:40:43 PM

you're either trolling or retarded because he doesn't have to act a certain way when around people that dont have the same degree he does. Speak english and don't be condescending. its not that difficult to figure out.

5/2/2008 3:46:59 PM