http://wral.com/news/local/story/2874306/

Quote :

""Legally, I think the attorney general's advice is flawed," Easley said. "Everybody wants to make sure that immigrants are learning English. If you cut off their ability to go to the Community College System, then how are they going to learn the language?""

I thought that statement by Easley emitted pure stupidity and ignorance. You don't learn english in community college. If you wait until then to learn english, then you have some serious issues. Besides, there are ESL schools for that.

Quote :

"The decision also doesn't affect undocumented immigrants in K-12 or GED programs."

I also have a hard time understanding why we allow illegal children to go to K-12 schools. Do kids automatically generate a victim mentality? I understand that education is the path to a better society. But, what about the other way around? Does the path to a better society come from handing out freebies? I guess some of us are more optimistic than others. I don't fall into that category.

Of course, if K through 12 wasn't free, then I probably wouldn't be an NCSU alumni since my parents were poor immigrants (legal of course). So, why am I even against the whole thing? I dunno, maybe I've just become cold hearted. Sorry, thinking to myself now, carry on...

5/13/2008 10:31:51 PM

i learned english by practicing it over and over again. not in a community college.

i did the same thing with italian french and spanish

5/13/2008 10:41:06 PM

Quote :

" I also have a hard time understanding why we allow illegal children to go to K-12 schools"

b.c usually the children are actual US citizens thanks to an archaic policy from the 1700's before the creation of rapid mass transit

secondly no matter what your stance is; it is better to have educated illegal youth running around then having a largely uneducated population. To think otherwise is fucking retarded and would cause way more problems costing the american tax payer WAY more then simply paying to let them go to school.

Education is one of few gov't funded programs i agree with. As i see it more as an investment toward the advancement of society. While i firmly oppose expansion of welfare programs and universal health care; I hold no problem shelling out to support the education system and assisting those in financial need with money for college. Given that they are willing to work hard and succeed.

[Edited on May 13, 2008 at 11:03 PM. Reason : l]

[Edited on May 13, 2008 at 11:04 PM. Reason : k]

5/13/2008 11:00:10 PM

i concur. an educated population is a must HUR.

Quote :

"To think otherwise if fucking retarded"

5/13/2008 11:03:01 PM

sorry i'm fucking sleepy after spending all day at my job with an engineering company earned through my advanced education; so blow me

5/13/2008 11:04:41 PM

^touche my friend! as did i!

and i'm still there working... deadlines

5/13/2008 11:07:04 PM

corn on the cob good job!

5/13/2008 11:12:15 PM

winnar winnar chicken dinnar lolwut?

5/13/2008 11:14:47 PM

What this country needs is fewer people with education. That's the solution to our problems.

5/13/2008 11:38:03 PM

my first thought was that i'm guessing most mexicans dont learn at the community college anyway?

5/13/2008 11:45:41 PM

sadly the addition of more and more illegal children to the education system thins government funding. it would seem to me that this ultimately causes a lower overall standard in education, not just for the illegals, but for the children of families who have been here for generations or through legal processes.

aka... looks like the country is just going to continue to become dumber

[Edited on May 14, 2008 at 4:04 AM. Reason : ]

5/14/2008 4:03:40 AM

people with any amount of intelligence will be fine.

the rest will pump gas in jersey.

5/14/2008 8:21:00 AM

You guys realize they'd be paying tuition, right?

How can you take issue with this?

[Edited on May 14, 2008 at 8:40 AM. Reason : can can]

5/14/2008 8:28:12 AM

community college tuition is subsidized by tax dollars.

but, for the record, i don't have a problem with allowing them access to education.

5/14/2008 8:35:46 AM

Well they even pay out-of-state tuition, which I don't imagine is all that subsidized.

5/14/2008 8:39:46 AM

There's been much talk recently about giving illegals in state tuition rates, but now that I re-look at it I think they were only proposing this for graduates of NC high schools.

5/14/2008 8:59:55 AM

I will laugh when one of the people in here gets mugged/robbed from some uneducated mexican immigrant bc they lack the intelligence to get a decent job and thus resort to crime. Not to mention there is an inverse correlation between education level and fertility rate. So by taking away K-12 education you would also be putting positive pressure for illegal immigrant women to have more babies.

Lastly do you think we have mandatory education till age 16 solely because uncle sam gives a shit about ghetto children? Part of the function of the school system is to act as a baby sitter and keep "at risk" teens/children off the streets and causing less problems.

While Tyronne is sitting in the classroom doodling gang symbols in math class he is not out on the street breaking into my car.

[Edited on May 14, 2008 at 9:14 AM. Reason : l]

5/14/2008 9:13:03 AM

Quote :

"secondly no matter what your stance is; it is better to have educated illegal youth running around then having a largely uneducated population. To think otherwise is fucking retarded and would cause way more problems costing the american tax payer WAY more then simply paying to let them go to school."

this is the truth. It mind boggling to think that anyone can actually think that denying college education to a large group of people will lead to any good. All this will lead to is a greater number of uneducated 19 year old Mexicans looking for some way to make money. Furthermore, this will likely greatly increase the high school drop-out rate since these kids don't have much incentive to stay in school if they can't go to college, so now there will be more 16-18 year old, uneducated, unschool Mexicans running around the state trying to find something to do.

Quote :

"Well they even pay out-of-state tuition, which I don't imagine is all that subsidized."

On NPR this morning, they got a quote for an NC Community College spokesman who said that 1) undocumented students (would) pay out-of-state tuition, and 2) out-of-state tuition covers 140% of the cost of schooling. The out of state tuition is subsidizing the in-state students.

5/14/2008 9:18:16 AM

I do oppose giving illegals or the children of illegals in-state tuition. The rationale for "in-state" tuition is that our/my parents pay NC INCOME TAXES that help pay for the UNC school system. Illegal immigrants unless they can prove they have paid NC income taxes over the years should not be applicable.

5/14/2008 10:11:01 AM

taxpayers have earned the rights and privileges of a government that they fund. those who are here illegally and do not pay taxes, have not. i'm all for re-structuring the system of immigration into a sensible process, but i personally do not agree with allowing illegals to remain in the U.S. and collect on the hard work of other people who are legal U.S. citizens.

5/14/2008 2:20:22 PM

just take all their hammocks away and they'll have no place to sleep during the day

5/14/2008 2:24:20 PM

Quote :

"but i personally do not agree with allowing illegals to remain in the U.S. and collect on the hard work of other people who are legal U.S. citizens."

what part of "out-of-state tuition covers 140% of the cost of the student" don't you understand?

5/14/2008 2:26:03 PM

After reading ^^^ I just want to slam my head against the wall.

"DEY TUK ERRR JERBS!!!"

Quote :

"taxpayers have earned the rights and privileges of a government that they fund"

argueably many citizens in this country receive gov't services and gov't money while paying minimal taxes.

[Edited on May 14, 2008 at 2:32 PM. Reason : a]

5/14/2008 2:31:40 PM

Some of us believe/feel:

1) We are a nation of laws. Without laws, what's the point? Why uphold the laws against your own citizens, but not against undocumented people? Private industry needs to stop hiring illegal immigrants. It's practically the source of our illegal immigration problems.

2) The best way to secure our borders is to stop hiring illegal immigrants and crack down on business that does hire them.


In the same way, we can apply those emotions/feelings to this situation:

1) By allowing illegal students to freely use the education system in America, we are encouraging illegal immigration. Students can now cross the border, enroll in an American school, and obtain a much better education. Good for them.

It's just that, they cut in line of tens of thousands of other students, evaded all the applicable fees for coming to the US, and may have also crowded the schools reducing the quality of education. Just my hypothesis, so it's not likely, but plausible.

2) The best way to secure our borders is to stop educating illegal immigrants. The annoying part is that illegals are now dipping into the public system, as opposed to private business.

5/14/2008 2:54:26 PM

Quote :

"Some of us believe/feel: 1) We are a nation of laws. Without laws, what's the point? Why uphold the laws against your own citizens, but not against undocumented people? Private industry needs to stop hiring illegal immigrants. It's practically the source of our illegal immigration problems. 2) The best way to secure our borders is to stop hiring illegal immigrants and crack down on business that does hire them. "

This is all good and true; idealistically the above could happen. Practically though it is almost cost prohibitive to enfore. Kind of like making sure everyone drives 65 mph in the 65mph speed zone. Realistically though while we encourage and try to enforce exisiting laws to minimize the damage we have enacted practical measures to minimize the detremental impact of illegals. Kind of like how many states have "slower traffic; keep right" initiatives. This kind of initiative is not meant to give the "ok" to speeders but to minimize its impact on traffic by encouraging drivers adhering to the speed limit to drive in the right lane decreasing the liklihood of an accident.

Quote :

" 1) By allowing illegal students to freely use the education system in America, we are encouraging illegal immigration. Students can now cross the border, enroll in an American school, and obtain a much better education. Good for them. "

I am sure free public school education is pretty far down the list for reasons why illegal immigrants come here. Please read my many posts above concerning education. Neglecting the fact that most of the children are actual citizens. Even if they were not i'd rather have them sitting in a classroom then having a bunch of uneducated illegal mexican teens sitting in the street breaking into my car and shit during the day.

Quote :

" It's just that, they cut in line of tens of thousands of other students, evaded all the applicable fees for coming to the US, and may have also crowded the schools reducing the quality of education. Just my hypothesis, so it's not likely, but plausible. "

From what i have heard many mexican children are more enthusiastic and eager to learn then many of the other lower class students. See above comments

Quote :

" 2) The best way to secure our borders is to stop educating illegal immigrants. The annoying part is that illegals are now dipping into the public system, as opposed to private business. "

lol; dey tukk err schools!
Likely if they were educated they would not be hopping the fence but would be getting a job in mexico. Benefits of having an educated population BY FAR outweighs the costs. Why else do you think jails have started expanding education opportunities to felons who are currently serving time in jail.

Quote :

"Fundamental purposes that have been proposed for education include: The enterprise of civil society depends on educating young people to become responsible, thoughtful and enterprising citizens. This is an intricate, challenging task requiring deep understanding of ethical principles, moral values, political theory, aesthetics, and economics, not to mention an understanding of who children are, in themselves and in society.[citation needed] Progress in every practical field depends on having capacities that schooling can educate. Education is thus a means to foster the individual's, society's, and even humanity's future development and prosperity. Emphasis is often put on economic success in this regard.[citation needed] One's individual development and the capacity to fulfill one's own purposes can depend on an adequate preparation in childhood. Education can thus attempt to give a firm foundation for the achievement of personal fulfillment. The better the foundation that is built, the more successful the child will be. Simple basics in education can carry a child far.[citation needed] "

5/14/2008 3:34:55 PM

Quote :

"It's just that, they cut in line of tens of thousands of other students, evaded all the applicable fees for coming to the US, and may have also crowded the schools reducing the quality of education. Just my hypothesis, so it's not likely, but plausible."

How many people do you think go through the expense and paperwork of legal immigration so that they can attend the world renowned Wake Tech? I'd be shocked if the number were greater than zero.

5/14/2008 3:38:34 PM

refugees?

5/14/2008 3:42:33 PM

Quote :

"secondly no matter what your stance is; it is better to have educated illegal youth running around then having a largely uneducated population. To think otherwise is fucking retarded and would cause way more problems costing the american tax payer WAY more then simply paying to let them go to school. Education is one of few gov't funded programs i agree with. As i see it more as an investment toward the advancement of society. While i firmly oppose expansion of welfare programs and universal health care; I hold no problem shelling out to support the education system and assisting those in financial need with money for college. Given that they are willing to work hard and succeed."

5/14/2008 3:47:23 PM

as long as they don't raise my taxes to fund the influx of new students i'm fine with it.

the value of a community college education should fluctuate, not taxes for the citizens paying for it.

5/14/2008 3:51:08 PM

Quote :

"taxpayers have earned the rights and privileges of a government that they fund."

Quote :

"The rationale for "in-state" tuition is that our/my parents pay NC INCOME TAXES that help pay for the UNC school system. Illegal immigrants unless they can prove they have paid NC income taxes over the years should not be applicable."

You are aware that large numbers of natural-born American and North Carolinian citizens don't pay taxes, right? And that this is perfectly legal, because our government, pack of fools that it is, knows better than to tax people who are living with an at or below subsistence income?

So is it that really, really poor people don't deserve the rights and privileges of the rest of us?

Quote :

"but i personally do not agree with allowing illegals to remain in the U.S. and collect on the hard work of other people who are legal U.S. citizens."

Even when they're putting in their own (arguably harder) work?

Quote :

"We are a nation of laws. Without laws, what's the point?"

Occasionally these laws are very stupid, un-American, and unjust. Historically we have looked well on people who have violated stupid, un-American, unjust laws. Nobody says Rosa Parks was an asshole because "She broke the law, we're a nation of laws, rawr rawr rawr."

Now, what you could claim would be that our current immigration laws are appropriate for our ideals of wisdom, justice, and Americanism. This way, at least your argument would not ultimately make you a hypocrite. It would, however, make you wrong.

Quote :

"The best way to secure our borders is to stop hiring illegal immigrants and crack down on business that does hire them."

I suppose, but really this is very much like saying, "The best way to get panda bears to live on the moon would be to take a lot of soil up there, terraform the whole thing to represent the climate in certain areas of China, and plant bamboo." The reason I say this is that, while doing all those things could possibly allow panda bears to live on the moon, they would all be very stupid, expensive, and ultimately pointless things to do.

Likewise, you can start a massive nationwide crackdown on a number of industries, including those most important to our prosperity and, indeed, survival (food's already more expensive than ever, now you want to cut out half the labor that brings it from the farm to your table?). This will cost untold sums in costs both direct (INS don't work for free) and indirect (now that we have to pay slaughterhouse employees twice as much, hope you like paying $15 for a hamburger). Ultimately all these efforts may actually succeed in cutting off illegal immigration, a result whose tangible benefits will have to be compared to the massive assault you've just launched on our national treasury and standard of living. Now, I ask you, what were those tangible benefits? You get to feel better about your family for going through legal channels for immigration?

Quote :

"By allowing illegal students to freely use the education system in America, we are encouraging illegal immigration."

I love how some people use the word "encouraging" for everything. By an extension of this logic, we are "encouraging" illegal immigration by not publicly hanging every illegal and then sodomizing their bodies.

Also, by allowing convicted felons to use any social services at all (school, medical care, whatever), we are "encouraging" felonies.

Quote :

"It's just that, they cut in line of tens of thousands of other students, evaded all the applicable fees for coming to the US, and may have also crowded the schools reducing the quality of education."

Are you talking about colleges or k-12? Because I think you'll find immigrant "crowding" of the former to be somewhat underwhelming. I'm also very curious to hear how you think denying any group of young people a free k-12 education will benefit anybody.

5/14/2008 4:00:44 PM

where the heck did you get "DEY TUK ERRR JERBS!!!" from HUR?
i didn't say anything about immigrants taking jobs.

Quote :

"argueably many citizens in this country receive gov't services and gov't money while paying minimal taxes."

some better than none? and for the record i hate lazy American bums getting free rides about as much as illegals getting them

5/14/2008 4:02:44 PM

Quote :

"the value of a community college education should fluctuate, not taxes for the citizens paying for it."

I am talking about K-12 not tertiary education.

GrumpyGOP

Quote :

"You are aware that large numbers of natural-born American and North Carolinian citizens don't pay taxes, right? And that this is perfectly legal, because our government, pack of fools that it is, knows better than to tax people who are living with an at or below subsistence income? "

HUR

Quote :

"arguably many citizens in this country receive gov't services and gov't money while paying minimal taxes."

Quote :

"So is it that really, really poor people don't deserve the rights and privileges of the rest of us?"

NO; this is because when it comes to higher education while i do not think illegals should be automatically excluded. However, I do not think
NC/american citizens whether they pay taxes or not should be deferred from being allowed to attend in place of an illegal who is receiving
the NC subsidized "in-state" tuition. If they wish to attend school they pay "out-of-state" much like my buddy from Virginia.

Except technically they would be paying "out-of-country" tuition

Quote :

"Even when they're putting in their own (arguably harder) work?"

this is true

Quote :

"Nobody says Rosa Parks was an asshole because "She broke the law, we're a nation of laws, rawr rawr rawr." "

Quote :

"I suppose, but really this is very much like saying, "The best way to get panda bears to live on the moon would be to take a lot of soil up there, terraform the whole thing to represent the climate in certain areas of China, and plant bamboo." The reason I say this is that, while doing all those things could possibly allow panda bears to live on the moon, they would all be very stupid, expensive, and ultimately pointless things to do. "

lolcano ; agreed.

Quote :

"dey tukk err schools!"

Quote :

"record i hate lazy American bums getting free rides about as much as illegals getting them"

I doubt many illegals get gov't free rides. BTW if you want to do something about this maybe you should work on closing the loophole
that allows anyone to be born in America is automatically an American citizen. I actually support this. Technically as is if osama bin laden's
wife came here on vacation and had a baby osama's son would not be a US citizen. While i still would support their education this would
at least allow the "illegal" status to be passed down from parents who are illegally living here in the first place. I highly doubt many border hoppers come here to attend wake tech or go to Sanderson High.

5/14/2008 4:23:04 PM

So how are these uneducated illegals figuring out ways around paying:

The federal and state gas tax
The federal and state sales tax
Taxes on phone bills
Taxes on prepared foods
Taxes on cigarettes and alcohol
Vehicle registration taxes
Property taxes
etc., etc.

Heck, the majority of illegals I know pay income tax, social security, medicare, etc. just like the rest of us.

5/14/2008 5:13:52 PM

Obviously, I'm not for or against college for illegals. Just playing devils advocate. This is still an issue I'm debating with me, myself, and I. So far, both sides have made good points. Keep 'em coming.

[Edited on May 14, 2008 at 9:08 PM. Reason : set 'em up]

5/14/2008 9:02:34 PM

More from the advocate...

Thought #215
So, if we're willing to admit the 112 illegal immigrants to our colleges, where do we stop?
What about 4 year universities?
Why make them pay out of state tuition?

I mean, it seems kind of greedy to ask for more money from such poor illegal immigrants. If your goal is to educate the uneducated, why not just give them cheap in state tuition? Like someone noted above, better to have educated illegals than non-educated ones right? Why not make it easy for them to achieve it? If they work, pay taxes, and live in NC, then why not? Seems a little half hearted and unfair if you ask me.


Thought #216
Doesn't this affect the integrity of affirmative action? I'm surprised white college students aren't more offended. That just means more of them are going to get bumped out of a spot at higher education. What do you think?


Thought #217
Lastly, aren't we surprised/scared that these illegal immigrants were so easily accepted into schools. If I was convicted of a crime, I highly doubt NCSU would have admitted me. As far as I know, there is a whole section on the college application for criminal background information.

Aren't illegals lying if they don't fill out that part of the form? Shouldn't they tell of their illegal status? I mean, baseball players get prosecuted for lying. Why hold our citizens to such laws, but not illegal aliens to those same standards? Kind of hypocritical, don't you think? Or am I looking at it all the wrong way. Maybe since they aren't citizens, they aren't obligated to follow the rules. Set me straight here folks.


I know all this is kind of over the top, but, there is some truth to it. And, it gives me more ammo to back up my meager arguing points

[Edited on May 14, 2008 at 9:55 PM. Reason : hmmmmm....]

5/14/2008 9:49:22 PM

^I'm kind of like you. I haven't made my mind up yet. No easy answer. I'll give short replies, playing devils advocate to those thoughts...

#215: You could always argue that learning how to come to the USA legally, and doing it, is part of the education process. Coming here legally 101. Required course.

#216: I guess. But only if the white kids are making better grades.

#217: Are they currently enrolled? If not, then they haven't lied on an application yet. If so they probably haven't been caught yet.

Thought #218
How much trouble would a business be in for trying to hire an illegal that's a college graduate? An illegal just got out of Wake Tech, now what?

[Edited on May 14, 2008 at 10:05 PM. Reason : -]

5/14/2008 9:59:51 PM

^^ Dude your logic is flawed!

If illegals were smart enough to make it into NCSU they would likely still BE IN MEXICO since i am sure they could get a job over all the illiterate Mexicans. Hell they could probably have a much easier time getting bumped up on the immigration list.

The REAL issue is the children of illegal mexicans getting in state tuition. Most likely they ARE AMERICAN CITIZENS. While i think all children should be allowed K-12 education; college is more of a privilege then a right. After all you do have to apply and out compete many other students to get into a good school like NCSU. With that condition i do not support providing them in-state tuition much like how i do not support some dude from Georgia getting in-state tuition. If they really want to attend they can take out student loans like every other student.

5/14/2008 10:08:16 PM

illegals come here to make american dollars and send most of it back home which means their family back home is rich.

they aren't here to come to community colleges. i see no issue here at all

5/14/2008 10:30:42 PM

Our immigration laws definitelty need mending.

We need new immigrants, but their arrival should to be controlled. I still like this plan:

1) Step down hard on employers hiring illegals. Throw a few CEOs in jail. Make it too big a risk to hire them. And of course no welfare. Without jobs and welfare, they will eventually go home on their own.

2) Get serious about border control.

3) Set up a system for Mexicans to come up and work temporarily in the U.S. There could be clearing houses set up in Mexico. Labor Businesses would be created to supply quality workers...skilled in certain occupations perhaps.

Applicants would be checked by these coomapnies for violent criminal records etc. A US company makes a request for so many workers. A contract is set up for these workers. The workers would be paid some of their money in the US, but the balance would be paid after they return to Mexico. If they skip out and are caught, they lose their working privilages in the US.

5/15/2008 12:31:17 AM

Quote :

"However, I do not think NC/american citizens whether they pay taxes or not should be deferred from being allowed to attend in place of an illegal who is receiving the NC subsidized "in-state" tuition."

I tend to think that if your family has contributed to the economy and tax base (illegals, like everyone else, at least pay sales taxes, which are not so negligible), you should get in state tuition. And if you meet that standard, and your parents happen to be illegal, the only way someone is getting "deferred" from attending is someone who is not as qualified as that illegal (or illegal-born kid).

If Bubba's not as smart as Paco, then Paco wins. If Cletus is from Virginia and he is smarter than Paco, then Cletus wins, but he gots to pay.

Quote :

"I'm surprised white college students aren't more offended. That just means more of them are going to get bumped out of a spot at higher education. What do you think?"

I think that a lot of white students don't have any ideas to get offended about. White students that have a lot of ideas are probably too intelligent to be offended. It's the ones with one or two ideas that get all in a tizzy about such things.

Quote :

"Aren't illegals lying if they don't fill out that part of the form? Shouldn't they tell of their illegal status?"

As far as those who actually are illegal immigrants (and not the completely legal children of such immigrants), you have to bear in mind that this is something they have to lie about constantly to accomplish even fairly basic tasks, as a result of a system brilliantly designed to punish people for an asinine "crime" and who would otherwise be as law-abiding as you or I.

As a result, they get fairly good at both building a history in this country that belies their status (employment, housing, etc.) while, when necessary, producing outright fraudulent information and even documents.

Essentially, if you're going to be surprised/scared about illegals getting into community college, you should also be surprised/scared every time they buy a car, open a bank account, rent an apartment, or buy a house. Which, admittedly, you could do, but you would then be a person far too preoccupied with surprise and fright to actually accomplish anything.

Quote :

"#215: You could always argue that learning how to come to the USA legally, and doing it, is part of the education process. Coming here legally 101. Required course."

It isn't that they aren't aware of the legal channels, it's that those channels generally fall into two categories:

1) Prohibitively expensive
2) Legally impossible

We only let in so many people a year from each country/area. Especially in the case of Latin America, the vast majority of those positions are taken up by special cases that in turn represent a minority of people who want in. What this means is that no matter how many hoops they jump through in our Immigration Policy Dog and Pony Show, they will never, ever, ever, ever get in.

This isn't one of those things where if you work real real hard, you'll eventually be rewarded. Fact is, trying to get into this country from Latin America, working real, real hard does not appreciably improve your odds of success, certainly while you're still young enough to reap the benefits of it.

Quote :

"If illegals were smart enough to make it into NCSU they would likely still BE IN MEXICO since i am sure they could get a job over all the illiterate Mexicans."

You'll recall from your own college experience, I'm sure, that being smart enough to go to NCSU does not pay for any kind of schooling. Mexico isn't exactly teeming with scholarship opportunities. So sure, by being smart, you can probably get above near-subsistence farming pretty quickly. You'd still be light years away from the kind of prosperity you could expect with any sort of college education.

Quote :

"college is more of a privilege then a right."

There are a great many people who would disagree with you on this, myself included. We're not a manufacturing-based economy anymore, where reading, writing, and basic arithmetic will suffice for much longer. We need to be sending the most qualified people to college, not the most American-born.

Quote :

"With that condition i do not support providing them in-state tuition much like how i do not support some dude from Georgia getting in-state tuition."

A dude from Georgia has not lived in and monetarily supported the state of North Carolina.

Now, I'm not sure on the details here. If we're just giving every immigrant-son who gets into school in-state tuition, I'm not all about that. But if their family has had residence here for the same duration as we expect of non-immigrant families, then they've paid at least as much into the state as any dirt poor native Carolinian has.

Quote :

"1) Step down hard on employers hiring illegals. Throw a few CEOs in jail. Make it too big a risk to hire them."

How very Libertarian of you. I've always loved how you stick to your third-part guns on every subject except this one.

Come on, EarthDogg, if you got rid of all the illegals you wouldn't sell hardly any rabbits at all.

Quote :

"2) Get serious about border control. "

Any ideas as about how to do this? Specifically, any ideas that wouldn't cost your Libertarian ass a bunch of money?

As to both your points, I repeat:

Quote :

"I suppose, but really this is very much like saying, "The best way to get panda bears to live on the moon would be to take a lot of soil up there, terraform the whole thing to represent the climate in certain areas of China, and plant bamboo." The reason I say this is that, while doing all those things could possibly allow panda bears to live on the moon, they would all be very stupid, expensive, and ultimately pointless things to do."

5/15/2008 4:41:06 AM

Quote :

"How very Libertarian of you. "

Libertarians are not in lock step on every issue. There is a lot of disagreement when it comes to immigration.

In theory, I support open borders...welcoming hard-working immigrants. But with our current nanny-state welfare system, open borders is asking for big trouble.

Granted, most illegals are probably not drawing welfare, but they are draining our myriad of tax-payer provided benefits. If the illegals gained overnight legal status, many probably would get on welfare, which would be paid for by more inflation-causing borrowing.

Quote :

"2) Get serious about border control. ""

There are areas of our southern border which have become basically war-zones. Open immigration is one thing, but the drug cartels and paramilitary forces on our Mexican border must be dealt with. It's a war-zone down there and we need our national guard down there, instead of Iraq, fighting. Border security shouldn't be confused with immigration, groups like MS13 must be crushed.

As I said, we need immigrants. But you can't open the gates if you don't control the gates. I would even be in favor of an Ellis-Island type set-up...with some type of minimal filtering of incoming people. But they would have to agree not to get on gov't assistance during their first 5-years or so.

5/15/2008 10:45:32 AM

Honestly unless we go through the cost-prohibitive process or take on fascist policies to wholeheartedly eradicate illegal immigrants in this country; as much as we HATE people taking free handouts i see no net benefit of denying K-12 education to the children of illegal immigrants or any illegal who just happens to be a youth who hopped the border w/ his parents.

Quote :

"roups like MS13 must be crushed. "

MS13 is primarily a Guatemalan gang

[Edited on May 15, 2008 at 10:50 AM. Reason : a]

5/15/2008 10:49:53 AM

In my extremely Libertarian viewpoint I see border control as one of the few functions of our government. They should provide a judicial system, law enforcement, and national defense, and a few other constitutionally mandated things, but that's about it.

You can easily, and depending on what you mean by it, make the logical argument that control of our borders is a national defense issue. In an ideal world I too would support an open border, but that's way down the list of things to do if Libertarians ever managed to get a large stake in government. Massive reforms to the system are necessary before we can open the borders.

5/15/2008 10:59:28 AM

A good percentage (~50%) of illegals do pay income taxes because they are paid on the books using taxid #s.

5/15/2008 11:16:34 AM

^
and even if they don't, most Americans don't pay income taxes at all: the assorted tax credits and such leave them with a negative tax liability -- e.g. they're getting a refund

I sent this in to the News & Observer, though it's too long to ever get published. Sums up my thoughts on the issue...

Quote :

"May 11, 2008 4:15:15 PM EDT Dear Editor, I applaud your Sunday editorial "Class and Borders," though I have to confess some disappointment in the limited discussion of the economic benefits these students provide to the state. Knowledge is cumulative: it builds upon itself. New knowledge rests on old knowledge, combining with it to form the foundation from which even more new knowledge is produced, and so on. This cumulative effect, perhaps best explained by economist William Easterly, is why the rate of economic growth has accelerated in the United States over time as new technologies are discovered while those same discoveries have provided no long-term benefits to Third World countries. A skyscraper simply cannot be constructed on a foundation of silt. This fundamental economic reality is why undocumented students are a net benefit to the taxpayers of North Carolina. At worst, they firm up that foundation of knowledge at the root of our economic growth; more often, they contribute to its expansion. That these students pay tuition beyond the cost of their instruction and lack access to financial aid increases that net benefit: they essentially provide a double subsidy to the sons and daughters of this state, simply for the privilege of learning a portion of what the rest of us know already. Many students refer to North Carolina as the "Wal-Mart of higher education," providing the best products at the best prices. Few of our politicians would be brazen enough to stop undocumented students from going to Wal-Mart to buy household necessities; it is equally wrong of us to stop them from going to a university or community college in North Carolina to buy an education. With warm regards, T Greg Doucette Vice Chairman Emeritus, Wake County Republican Party (2003-2005) Senior in Computer Science, NC State University"

5/15/2008 12:23:07 PM

I am not sure comparing NCSU to the walmart of education is a very prestigious analogy.

I do not want to a "walmart" education.

5/15/2008 1:26:25 PM

Quote :

"I am not sure comparing NCSU to the walmart of education is a very prestigious analogy."

Yeah, maybe we should go ahead and steer away from that particular comparison.

Also, I want to point out how astounding it is that eyedrb has not posted in this thread yet.

5/15/2008 9:22:35 PM

The handful of illegals that were using our CC system were paying out of state tuition, so pretty much they were contributing more than most of us.

As usual, it became some huge sensation everyone got incensed about and the whole time it was not a problem at all.

5/16/2008 1:05:18 AM

Quote :

"I do not want to a "walmart" education."

Good luck with that.

5/16/2008 7:23:14 AM