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dtownral
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I do planning for a multi-national that has a large campus in the area. We are adding charging stations too, it's just taking a little longer than some might like because running individual circuits to each charger is a lot more expensive than some would expect. I'm basically doing it a little at a time when I have leftover funding from project. Also, any new parking will have it designed in from the start. We already have many leafs and volts and in a survey many said they were planning to buy one in the next few years. Also, I'm told that its starting to show up on survey results of items applicants consider when weighing job offers (though as a minimal factor).

9/19/2012 9:24:15 PM

Igor
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Front page of the America's "fair and balanced" news website today. Surely, it must be an article about large numbers of Chevy Volts going up in flames due to factory defects?

No, clicking on it brings up an article about attacks in Libya. But they managed to find a way to vilify the Volt in there somehow.


[Edited on October 11, 2012 at 3:23 PM. Reason : Fair and balanced my ass]

10/11/2012 3:10:10 PM

smc
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Seems pretty straightforward to me.

10/11/2012 3:48:00 PM

Igor
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They probably got called out and had to change the header as well as the sumamry below, because that's not how it looked half an hour ago

At either rate, the article critizies decision of State Department to use Chevy Volt as a embassy vehicle in Vienna.

Quote :
"Records show another $47,500 was spent in March on a Chevy Volt for the American Embassy in Oslo. That's more than the usual $39,000 that 2013 Volts are going for -- and certainly doesn't include the $7,500 tax credit individuals can reap for electric car purchases"


Maybe because the car had to be exported from USA and imported into Norway (not sure how duties work for embassy vehicles, but there are definitely shippping costs involved)? Or maybe because of the optional equipment? Either way, it is still way cheaper than the MSRP of the Euorpean version (Opel Ampera), which costs something like 59k. I am pretty positive they have to follow Buy America Act in their procurement practices, and it sure is cheaper to buy American-spec Volt than the American-spec Suburban, popular with government officials, and even cheaper in the long run in Europe, where fuel prices are approaching $10 USD per gallon. And why would the government office apply for individual tax credit? WTF


[Edited on October 11, 2012 at 4:08 PM. Reason : .]

10/11/2012 4:06:34 PM

smc
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Didn't the government spec Chevy Suburban kill some federal agents recently when it automatically unlocked the doors during a Mexican cartel ambush? That's what buying American gets you.

10/11/2012 4:11:00 PM

Igor
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Yeah that was a BAE screwup, they do the armored conversion. Hell, the cost of armored conversion is probably higher than the cost of the Volt the Fox News are complainging about. While there is no question that armour is required in certain countries, no one at Fox is looking into how many armored SUV did BAE equip for State Department and other government branches, and where those trucks are being used.

10/11/2012 4:27:07 PM

CarZin
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Yeah, this stuff laughable. The author of this vomit couldnt even spend a few moments to find out the Chevy Volt that is sold in Norway, the base cost, is what they spent. Cars that are exported do not cost the same as the cars in the first state.

Second, the 100k+ spent for a charging station. It must be that they tied some other electrical work into the contract. It wouldnt surprise me if they wanted to rewire th embassy, and they tied the EVSE install with that contract. An EVSE, commercially, should cost no more than 8k. If 100k was spent installing 1 or 2 EVSEs, then it was fraud. But since I havent seen the bid request, it is just speculation.

And finally... Consider the motives of an author that selects what woud amount to tiny drop in the overall embassy budgets, 150k, to say this is what prevented embassy security. It is LAUGHABLE.

10/11/2012 10:12:33 PM

smc
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Don't discount the broad perception that electric vehicles are the playthings of the rich and government agencies with limitless budgets that wish to appear trendy. Every purchase has a very real price, both in opportunity cost over more affordable technologies and consumption of natural resources that are arguably more rare than oil. In this case there was also a human cost from misappropriated resources. It's not, in my opinion, an argument that's entirely without merit and one that you'll no doubt encounter yourself in your role as a self-appointed proselytizer.

[Edited on October 12, 2012 at 12:09 AM. Reason : Also, there's no excuse for an American ambassador not to be riding in a bigass black Cadillac.]

10/12/2012 12:04:15 AM

Igor
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Petroleum-powered cars during their dawn used to be under the broad perception of being playthings of the rich as well. A lot of it is just that, a perception based on anti-environmental backlash and the novelty of the concept (although, ironically, some of the first cars had electric powertrain). I think at this point the technology caught up to the point where electric or hybrid powertrain can be a viable alternative in terms of budget to various types of ICEs. You are correct that electric vehicles require finite resources for production, however those resources are (for the most part) reuseable/recycleable once they are mined and put into use. The actual consumable energy required to propel the vehicle is easiest being transferred in form of electricity when it comes from renewable sources. There are other technologies for renewable energy storage, perhaps more affordable, such as compressed air engines that are trying to take off in India, or hydrogen fuel cell, but they have not proven to be as effective or accessible as battery storage/electric motor combination.

This next side note is totally soapbox material, but here it is anyways. When we talk about human cost, let's not forget about the human cost related to securing oil production and trade around the world.

Also, the Ambassador may "deserve" a Cadillac, but there is no reason for it to be big and not efficient. Even luxury brands are coming out with hybrid or electric powertrains. Whether the pressure is from the government or the market, I don't know. But I would rather have the Ambassador's car stand for technological progress than a "world bully" status symbol, especially when the cost to taxpayer is essentially the same. IMHO, it doesn't even have to be black, for what it's worth.

I'd like to hear from everyone, what would you consider to be the most viable way for us to reduce our need for fossil fuel used for pure transportation purposes? And do we really have a responsibility to even attempt a reduction? What about the need to reduce traffic congestion in urban areas?
We can agree that ICE cars will still be around for a long while for driving enthusiasts to enjoy, so I am not trying to make this all-or nothing type of deal


[Edited on October 12, 2012 at 3:00 AM. Reason : .]

10/12/2012 2:31:22 AM

CarZin
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Quote :
"In this case there was also a human cost from misappropriated resources. It's not, in my opinion, an argument that's entirely without merit "


targeting this purchase, in particular, is without merit, when we likely spend billions supporting embassys, and you could say that ANY purchase that wasn't absolutely necessary by ANY embassy cost lives because of misallocated funds. This is a hit piece, plain and simple. The only people that believe that the purchase of the Volt caused people to get killed are IDIOTS and right wing zealots.

My message to drudgereport:
"Dear Matt: Thank you so much for focusing so much negative attention on the Volt. Every month you highlight slanted and false articles on the Volt, we reach new sales records. Keep up the good work!! Sincerely, General Motors"

My graph of Volt sales. The purple line is really a scaler of current monthly sales. The scale of the graph negatively biases the monthly gains, so the improvements are seen better in purple. It looks like we are headed to the third month in a row of near (or perhaps above) 3,000 a month in domestic sales. This makes the Volt more popular that about half all U.S. cars sold, and selling more than about half all the models produced by GM. The current sales rate is placing it around 36,000 units a year, only about 4,000 under the abandoned target for 2012. So, the Volt seems about 1 year behind their sales estimates, but its getting there.



[Edited on October 12, 2012 at 9:35 AM. Reason : .]

10/12/2012 9:26:12 AM

TKE-Teg
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What is this shit? That burned out vehicle isn't even a Volt!

10/12/2012 9:56:52 AM

CarZin
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Yeah, this is the type of stuff that opened my eyes to my party, and the places I get my news. That picture is just the tip of the ice berg. Anytime they can make some connection to Volts and fire, even though there hasnt been a single Volt fire outside a test lab, they'll do it. There are so many places that people like drudge are sourcing as 'news', when all they are is hack blogs with an agenda (which is kinda what the drudgereport.com is all about). Fox news is a complete sham.

I used to worry about it. But now that I see volt sales really taking off, this is only going to fool the fools, and those arent people that are likely to buy a Volt anyway.


[Edited on October 12, 2012 at 10:17 AM. Reason : .]

10/12/2012 10:14:29 AM

smc
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^False.

Quote :
"Last year, a Chevy Volt and its charging station were suspected as possible causes for a house fire that started in the garage of a Mooresville, N.C. home."


http://www.news-press.com/article/20121009/NEWS0108/121009014/Smart-car-charging-battery-garage-starts-house-fire?odyssey=mod|newswell|text||p

10/12/2012 3:02:09 PM

smc
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^False.

Quote :
"Last year, a Chevy Volt and its charging station were suspected as possible causes for a house fire that started in the garage of a Mooresville, N.C. home."


http://www.news-press.com/article/20121009/NEWS0108/121009014/Smart-car-charging-battery-garage-starts-house-fire?odyssey=mod|newswell|text||p

Quote :
"Battery fires have long been a problem for EV development. The Chevy Volt and Fisker Karma have experienced battery fires."

http://washingtonexaminer.com/army-buys-ev-trucks-despite-costs-fires/article/2509952

Quote :
"The new trucks are designed and built by Smith Electric Vehicles, a financially troubled company that received $32 million in federal stimulus funds. The U.S. Army contract for the first five vehicles cost $1.47 million. Including in the upfront costs for the most expensive truck, and the projected fuel savings, the Army would break even on its $228,000 investment when the vehicle reached 564,000 miles. Traveling 100 miles per day would take 21.7 years to recoup the initial investment."


http://www.freep.com/article/20120925/BUSINESS01/309250040/Chrysler-halts-work-on-plug-in-hybrid-test-fleet

[Edited on October 12, 2012 at 3:09 PM. Reason : .]

10/12/2012 3:07:18 PM

Igor
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nice selection of sources, clearly not biased information. Even then, did you care to follow up and see what actually DID happen? Did you even read your own sources?

Quote :
"Garland Cloer, Iredell County's chief deputy fire marshal, said it appears the fire did not start in the electric car"


http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2011/12/01/v-print/2816618/charger-for-volt-didnt-spark-iredell.html

Then, from your very own article:

Quote :
"its batteries are like those that have experienced fires during development tests by other automakers"


Nowhere does it say the actual truck batteries ever caught fire. If that's not a stretch, I don't know what is. This is like saying since Ford Pintos were known to catch fire, so do all other cars on the road that have a gas tank.

How the hell did you get into NC State not knowing how to read, how to verify your sources, or how to think critically? I would think these would be basic requirements for admission.

[Edited on October 12, 2012 at 3:51 PM. Reason : I honestly have no explanation for all the hate]

10/12/2012 3:48:38 PM

CarZin
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Smc, if I actually cared about correcting your ignorance I could reference you to fire Marshall in mooresville, that after the investigation, practically ruled out any possibility of the Volt being the cause of the fire. The fire with the Karmas was related to its internal combustion engine and not the battery. You are being fooled by shoddy blogging/journalism.

The only other fire that was residential was up north and WAS ruled out as the source of the fire by the fire Marshall.

The ONLY fire for the Volt was a single fire in a test lab. They couldn't recreate it until they took the packs out of the car, and even then it was very difficult.

Try again.

[Edited on October 12, 2012 at 6:02 PM. Reason : .]

10/12/2012 6:00:15 PM

CarZin
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This is a good description of the myth of Volt fires:
http://voltowner.blogspot.com/2012/06/volt-fire-myth-debunked.html

And for the record, my statement was obviously targeted directly at the Volt. I am not going to defend every single manufacturer. If so, then I'l gladly point you to the 5 million + car recalls since 2010 from all manufacturers NOT GM, and also the stat from the DOT that apx 250k cars catch on fire every year.

To date, ZERO VOLT FIRES OUTSIDE OF THE GOVERNMENT TEST LAB

I think the biggest show of ignorance is to be proven wrong, and dig your hole deeper. How deep do you want to go?

10/12/2012 6:20:13 PM

smc
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I guess we'll see what happens as time goes by. In the meantime I'd park it in the driveway rather than the garage.




[Edited on October 12, 2012 at 7:59 PM. Reason : At least Corvairs were pretty.]

10/12/2012 7:44:57 PM

dtownral
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You should probably park anything outside, because while there are no fires from the Volt, there are garage fires from old fashioned ice cars.

10/12/2012 8:46:04 PM

smc
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Ice cars are the coolest.

10/12/2012 9:15:05 PM

Igor
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Quote :
"DETROIT – Preparations will soon be under way at the Detroit-Hamtramck Assembly plant to build the Cadillac ELR, a luxury coupe featuring extended-range electric technology, General Motors North America President Mark Reuss said Tuesday.

“The ELR will be in a class by itself, further proof of our commitment to electric vehicles and advanced technology,” Reuss said in a keynote address at the SAE Convergence Conference in Detroit. “People will instantly recognize it as a Cadillac by its distinctive, signature look and true-to-concept exterior design.”

Production is scheduled to begin in late 2013.

The addition of the ELR to Detroit-Hamtramck represents a $35 million investment and increases total product investment to $561 million since December 2009. It is the first two-door car built at the plant since the 1999 Cadillac Eldorado.

“This investment reflects the corporation’s confidence that the highly skilled members of UAW Local 22 can successfully build one of the most technologically advanced vehicles in the world,” said UAW Vice President Joe Ashton, who directs the union's GM Department. “The hard work and dedication of our members demonstrates that we can competitively manufacture products for the future right here in Detroit.”

The ELR is the production version of Cadillac’s Converj, a concept vehicle revealed at the North American International Auto Show in 2009. The ELR will advance the design theme of the Converj while featuring an electric propulsion system made up of a T-shaped lithium-ion battery, an electric drive unit, and a four-cylinder engine-generator. It will use electricity as its primary power source to drive the car without using gasoline or producing tailpipe emissions. When the battery’s energy is low, the ELR seamlessly switches to a gasoline-powered electric generator to allow hundreds of additional driving miles. The lithium-ion battery will be built at GM’s Brownstown Battery Assembly plant in Brownstown, Mich.

Detroit-Hamtramck is the only U.S. automotive manufacturing plant that mass produces extended-range electric vehicles. The plant is home to the Chevrolet Volt, Opel Ampera, and Holden Volt extended-range electric vehicles. Extended-range electric vehicles are exported to 21 countries from the plant.
"


It's one is gonna look worth the sticker price. I don't think there are any plans to upgrade the powertrain though

10/18/2012 7:51:26 PM

CarZin
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Yes, the are planning an improvement. They are not being transparent on the ELR like they were with the Volt. We ate fairly confident that this car will have the Voltec v1.5 and possibly v2.0. We are also expecting better performance. Don't know about the pack size or range. I'm guessing it will slightly less range. The performance will take that away and I doubt they will fit a much larger pack.

10/18/2012 7:58:36 PM

synapse
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Quote :
"Smc, if I actually cared about correcting your ignorance I could reference you to fire Marshall in mooresville, that after the investigation, practically ruled out any possibility of the Volt being the cause of the fire. The fire with the Karmas was related to its internal combustion engine and not the battery. You are being fooled by shoddy blogging/journalism. "


Don't mind him. He's been off his medication for a while now and can't control himself.

10/19/2012 12:46:56 PM

CarZin
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Another record month.

11/1/2012 11:06:05 AM

smc
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"That's awesome!"

11/1/2012 4:53:36 PM

Igor
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http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/wp/2012/10/19/chinas-chokehold-over-rare-earth-metals-is-slipping/

Quote :
"One key thing to note is that, despite their colorful name, rare earth metals aren’t actually all that rare. At one point or another during the twentieth century, Brazil, India, the United States and South Africa were all major producers. It’s just that, in the 1980s, China decided to ramp up production massively, driving out competitors and cornering the market. (China managed to do this, in part, by going easy on environmental oversight of mining, which can be a horrifically dirty process.)
Then in 2010, China decided to restrict its export quota by 40 percent. That helped drive prices up and suddenly made it economical for other countries to start boosting their own production again again. Out in Mountain Pass, Calif., for instance, Molycorp is now reopening and expanding its massive rare earth metals mine"


Quote :
". Panasonic has developed a technique to recycle neodymium from old electronic appliances. Honda is extracting rare earths from used car batteries. TDK Corp., which creates magnets for motors, now sprays dysprosium on its motors rather than mixing it in, in order to conserve. "


http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/as-candidates-promise-a-crackdown-chinas-advantage-erodes-in-a-key-area/2012/10/26/2363a766-1a18-11e2-bd10-5ff056538b7c_story.html

Quote :
"And as new sources of rare earth minerals have appeared, that has meant new jobs — including in the tiny town of China Grove, N.C., where Japan’s Hitachi Metals is planning to produce high-tech magnets from rare earth minerals."


Quote :
"Molycorp President Mark A. Smith said the company, which has scaled up employment at the mine from 55 to 420 in recent years, aims to produce as much as 40,000 metric tons a year by 2013, accounting for about 30 percent of projected world supply"


China was able to originally grab the market due lack of governmental oversight in environmental and labor issues, and too much government intervention such as quota systems and currency manipulation, which may have been great for their economy but not so much for their people or environment. Now that they are not exporting as much, the rising demand for rare earth metals due to development of technology lead to new jobs in the US and massive rise in recycling efforts all over the world. Now THAT'S awesome!

[Edited on November 2, 2012 at 11:08 AM. Reason : close to home, son]

11/2/2012 11:05:18 AM

TKE-Teg
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definitely good news. Good info as well.

11/2/2012 12:56:15 PM

smc
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Hooray for strip mining in American! USA! USA!

11/2/2012 2:20:54 PM

Igor
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_Pass_rare_earth_mine

First of all, it is not strip mining, but open-pit mining, which affects a lot smaller area of land.
Second, I think mining recycleable material in Mojave desert will have a lot less impact on the enviroment than pumping consumable oil in Alaska or in US coastal waters, two of the most biodiverse places in the North America.

But thanks for playing. That's some in-depth research that you have done over there to prepare each of your comments on this page. Looks like your two main sources are Google image search and your ass.

[Edited on November 2, 2012 at 5:16 PM. Reason : I'm not even going to start with discussing oil from Alberta Tar Sands ]

11/2/2012 5:13:50 PM

smc
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Just a tiny ecological scratch. One of many, many scratches that will be needed if these are to become mass produced. I love how this car is forcing environmentalists to defend aggressive mining techniques.

I propose that this car will be seen as a technology that only prolongs and worsens the crisis, much like the cotton gin did for slavery. The real solution is to continue producing and refining traditional vehicles but make them prohibitively expensive, artificially if necessary.

[Edited on November 2, 2012 at 5:28 PM. Reason : And thanks for thanking me. ]

11/2/2012 5:25:07 PM

Igor
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Look at the scale and thing about where these are located, then get back to me.





Quote :
"I propose that this car will be seen as a technology that only prolongs and worsens the crisis, much like the cotton gin did for slavery. The real solution is to continue producing and refining traditional vehicles but make them prohibitively expensive, artificially if necessary. "


I'm all for increasing efficiency and riding bicycles and public transport when possible, but what you are proposing is a laughable solution for the majority of the US residents. How the fuck are blue collar people in the rural areas that feed your college-educated ass going to get around? Should they all pitch in and get a barn-church-post office circulator bus? Or should they hold on to their 8mpg 2500 Chevy for five decades, like Cubans, because the new, fuel efficient vehicles are prohibitively expensive?

[Edited on November 3, 2012 at 11:54 AM. Reason : .]

11/3/2012 11:53:48 AM

CarZin
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One year down.



And if I had a gas hog, like a Ford F-150, this is a visual representation of the gas needed to move the car around



[Edited on January 7, 2013 at 1:29 PM. Reason : .]

1/7/2013 1:29:39 PM

Dr Pepper
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hate the driver, not the vehicle. while the volt is good at hauling some asses and a few grocery bags across town at a moderate pace....

that f150 can haul a pallet load of bricks, couple kegs, you and your 3 best friends and tow a lawnmower trailer. It's all in the usage.

1/7/2013 2:01:18 PM

smc
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You could always add some helper springs, remove the hatch lid and make a badass Voltcamino.

I actually can't wait until I see a push mower or a refrigerator hanging out the back of a Volt; this will be the harbinger of true EV acceptance.

Edit:
It has come to pass.


[Edited on January 7, 2013 at 5:04 PM. Reason : .]

1/7/2013 5:02:51 PM

theDuke866
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If only they had built it without an EDR, I'd likely own one.

1/7/2013 7:14:29 PM

smc
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I thought all cars had data recorders now, including every GM built since the 90's. I assume the new ones go above and beyond their intended duty?

1/7/2013 9:52:25 PM

Igor
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Quote :
"hate the driver, not the vehicle. while the volt is good at hauling some asses and a few grocery bags across town at a moderate pace....

that f150 can haul a pallet load of bricks, couple kegs, you and your 3 best friends and tow a lawnmower trailer. It's all in the usage."


Yeah but how about the majority of the privately owned F-150s that are being used to haul one or two fat asses and a few grocery bags around town 99% of the time? I personally know at least a couple of people with brand-new trucks that have NEVER hauled anything that would not fit into a trunk of a mid-sized sedan. Just because it can, doesn't mean it will. I also have two brand new FJ cruisers in front of my apartment building that look tuff but probably never been past a gravel driveway or a muddy field.

1/7/2013 11:36:05 PM

Dr Pepper
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Quote :
"hate the driver, not the vehicle."



don't know why you're arguing?

1/8/2013 11:53:45 AM

Igor
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Because we are on the Internets and outside of n00ds that's why we are here

I just feel like there is a lot of hate for Volt drivers for being "smug" (not from you personally, but from general population), while the above mentioned truck-owning posers get a high-five and "nice truck" comments and it makes me In Carzin's situation that gas can infographic would apply to any car driving year around at 17mpg, whether it is a F-150 or a modded Evo, vehicles that two of my friends drive with that same gas economy. Obviously those cars have some unique capabilities that owners may need once every blue moon, but for everyday commuting Volt is once of the best options. Yet these people absolutely fail to see the appeal of Volt when I mentioned it a couple of times, while Evo has NEVER seen the track (owner lives within 10 miles to from Summit Point raceway), and the only timber that F150 has seen since its purchase was the Christmas tree.



[Edited on January 8, 2013 at 1:06 PM. Reason : Disclaimer: I do still drive a truck but I did downgrade from 2500 to an S-10 when my needs changed]

1/8/2013 1:04:12 PM

Dr Pepper
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i hear ya

I'm an advocate for multi-vehicle ownership!

91 civic for daily duties (31avg)
99 dakota when I need a bed and 4wd (15.5avg)
95 cummins for when i want to go f.s.t. fast (17avg)

1/8/2013 1:21:20 PM

Igor
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Yeah that's the best way to do it when you have space, then you can choose "the right tool for the job"

1/8/2013 1:31:40 PM

CarZin
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I'm not hating on the F-150. It is use really as an example to show how extreme some costs of operation are for certain vehicles. As someone else pointed out, many people I know with those trucks rarely if ever haul anything except their ass to work and back. And they'll say how the Volt is too expensive to own, but its likely they are spending almost as much as it costs to own a Volt is just gasoline expenses in a big truck. Maybe a big truck necessary for them? But it is still a good point to be made.

1/8/2013 1:45:17 PM

Dr Pepper
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^understand completely. you also have to be mindful that to many, a $40k car is still way expensive anyway - to date, with my 3 vehicles mentioned above, including all maintenance and modifications (not fuel, however) I probably don't have $40k invested.


Just a different perspective.

1/8/2013 2:50:59 PM

theDuke866
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Quote :
"I thought all cars had data recorders now, including every GM built since the 90's. I assume the new ones go above and beyond their intended duty?
"


I think ze Germans (to include Mini) and some of the Italians are the last ones standing at this point.

1/8/2013 8:36:30 PM

Igor
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ELR is revealed, looking much sharper then Volt on the outside (har har)





However, burled wood accents and brown leather stitching, while good-looking, are screaming "past," not "future." In Cadillac's defense, Tesla and BMW i-series took the same road when going from concept to production, something that I may have expected from Cadillac but not from the latter two. I guess they have to play up to the deeply-rooted (antiquated?) tastes of old people who actually have money to buy these cars.



[Edited on January 15, 2013 at 8:34 PM. Reason : .]

1/15/2013 8:32:25 PM

Dr Pepper
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Quote :
" I guess they have to play up to the deeply-rooted (antiquated?) tastes of old people who actually have money to buy these cars.

"


I would assume so, as well.

1/16/2013 9:03:30 AM

Ahmet
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Duke, you're aware that your C5 also has an EDR right?

1/16/2013 9:18:33 AM

CarZin
patent pending
10527 Posts
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While I'd be lying if I said I didnt want that interior in my Volt, the ELR is a dissapointment for me. I think its likely to come in around 65-70k.

The issue is they have a car that actually looks sporty and fast, but it isn't. It is mildly faster than the Volt, and they do it by sacrificing range. The Volt range is spot on for me, and I wouldnt buy it knowing I'd likely have to burn more gas. It doesnt enhance anything, really. They could have at least put in a faster L2 charger in it, but nope!

1/16/2013 10:05:56 AM

smoothcrim
Universal Magnetic!
18917 Posts
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^^^^ I thought this car was never coming out. I'm torn between this and the C7 The all electric range numbers and whether or not we have charge stations at the new office will be the deciding factors for me.

[Edited on January 16, 2013 at 10:24 AM. Reason : ^]

1/16/2013 10:06:09 AM

theDuke866
All American
52651 Posts
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^^^ Oh yes, but wasn't aware of the issue when I bought it. It's up for sale (not for that reason, but that makes me even more ready to get something else).

1/16/2013 6:16:50 PM

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