give 3 reasons why you are voting for the person you are voting for. I will post my choice if this thread succeeds.

7/15/2008 10:15:25 PM

I'm planning on writing myself in because

1) I'm awesome
2) ...
3) Profit!

7/15/2008 10:32:40 PM

LOL SOUTH PARK

7/15/2008 10:33:41 PM

leaning toward Obama, but I won't make up my mind until they get to do some head-to-head debates.

7/15/2008 10:48:51 PM

McCain
1) income tax
2) experience
3) death penalty
4) corporate tax
5) being against the farm bill
6) being against ethanol

Im not really crazy about him but I still like him better than B. Hussein Obama. I do admire his following. America needs something to be excited and proud over

7/15/2008 11:12:15 PM

^ Why 1?




You'll probably get more money back with Obama. The fifth quintile there is households making about $190k/year, the fourth quintile is averaged at people making about $80k/year. I don't know many grad students making $190k/year. And obama and McCain both support the death penalty.

7/15/2008 11:33:40 PM

I just think its the moral of the story. I don't believe that the rich should be taxed to the extremes. I certainly am not pulling in major cheese, but, I feel like those who do pay enough as it is. Additionally, those paying the extreme taxes are also likely to be the ones investing and starting new businesses. Im not supporting 'trickle down' economics though.

edit: i didnt know that about obama. those points are just my points on republicans vs. democrats in general and they typically hold (outside of the experience point)

[Edited on July 15, 2008 at 11:45 PM. Reason : ]

[Edited on July 15, 2008 at 11:50 PM. Reason : ]

7/15/2008 11:44:20 PM

Quote :

"I don't believe that the rich should be taxed to the extremes."

I don't think anyone does, where do you see the rich being taxed anywhere near close to the extremes? In general I don't care who you vote for, but your misperceptions about taxes reads like a talking point rather than actual knowledge of the issue.

Another good link: http://www.freedomtalks.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/effectivetaxrates.jpg


[Edited on July 16, 2008 at 12:03 AM. Reason : ]

7/15/2008 11:51:05 PM

The top two percentiles (extreme, not quintiles) are 8 and 10+ respectively. I dont agree with that at all. Im a fan of low taxes and small government. I guess Im more of a libertarian than a republican if you get into details. Tax the bad stuff, not the good stuff (income). More pigouvian taxes and less taxes that lead to harmful incentives.

Alright, collected thoughts. I dont support taxes as they are. McCain just happens to be better than Obama (in my opinion). It doesnt mean that I think he is right though. He has proposed some nice things such as more breaks for families (increasing number of dependents that can be claimed in certain circumstances). Whereas Obama supports higher social security payments on the wealthy. Both of these dont show in the numbers but will both play an important role when putting money into peoples wallets. Also, capital gains tax. Obama wants to raise it. That will likely be paid by a) less dividends to stock holders b) less pay for employees c) higher prices for customers. All three will 'lower my income' or purchasing power. So I think there is more to it than simply the tax percentile that you fall into.

Im not arguing 'republican is right' by any means. I think I hate both parties, I just hate the democrats more.

7/16/2008 12:02:36 AM

The top 1% of income earners represents about 1 million people. The top .1 is people that make 5.5 million dollars or more (I would guess around 100,000 people). IF you're worried about them, they've pretty much been getting richer continuously since the 60s, where the bottom 90% has gotten slightly poorer:


If there is a "moral of the story" to be heard, it's that the bottom 90% need more looking-out-for than the top 1%. Unless you somehow believe for the past 40 years, 90% of Americans have been getting lazier, while 1% has been the ones working hard, spending their money right, etc..

[Edited on July 16, 2008 at 12:05 AM. Reason : ]

7/16/2008 12:03:52 AM

Quote :

"America needs something to be excited and proud over"

feel the excitement

7/16/2008 12:08:16 AM

^^I was talking about Obama when I discussed excitement. I think McCain is the better politician when it comes to plans, facts, and policy. I think Obama would be better 'for America'. He is something new in so many ways. He is black, he is young, he is energetic, he speaks very well, etc. I think that is all great and would be good for our countries morale. McCain feels like more of the same. Im aware of that.

I wont even get into a 'the rich are getting richer, the poor are getting poorer' argument. The value of education almost explains the entire reason for the gap. Its tough for someone with no education to get a valuable job. And now there are more opportunities for someone with money to make money. That shouldnt be corrected through the tax code. Im all for making things more equal/fair and educating those less fortunate. Anything to provide positive incentives should be encouraged. Not things that keep people in poverty but surviving.

Im saying that all taxes should be lower. McCain is having a positive change on after-tax income for all the brackets. Before you jump on me for the lowest two quartiles. Notice their taxes in and taxes out. They get more out of the system than they give out. So Im not sure the cuts should exactly go to them with the utmost urgency. There are a fair amount of people in the USA who hardly pay taxes. Now youre going to criticize those who wont give them tax breaks? Well, theyre not really paying taxes to start with. [note this is after tax income, not tax breaks]. So giving them more money, like some democrats suggest, is the same as a tax break for the rich. You cant give a tax break to someone who doesnt pay taxes. You can just give them more money. Either way, money ends up in the pocket. Same thing with a tax break for someone making 70,000 a year.
Well that was a huge divergence from my original point. Obama views the tax system as 'skewed' and I disagree with that entirely. Mainly because he wants to fund his programs, and Im biased because I disagree with them.

Im not saying Im right. Just my opinion which I dont feel conflicts with the facts.

(i just read the post, the 'doesnt pay taxes' thing is obviously limited to a small group, my original paragraph made it sound like it was more widespread)

[Edited on July 16, 2008 at 12:20 AM. Reason : welkigoeirgoeig]

7/16/2008 12:18:29 AM

I agree with ^

Focusing on class divisions ignores the larger point, that the last thing we need during an economic downturn is higher taxes on investors and businesses.

Quote :

"the bottom 90% has gotten slightly poorer"

This is not true. The graph you posted says nothing about overall wealth, but rather percentage of wealth. It's true that the income gap between quintiles has risen, but I fail to see how that is such a bad thing when all quintiles have gradually gained in wealth over the last several decades.

7/16/2008 12:28:05 AM

If these people are really spending that much money on investment then that's not really taxable income is it? Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't money that you invest tax free or low taxation?

7/16/2008 12:44:47 AM

capital gains tax. dude.

also, it depends if the money theyre investing is 'sitting wealth' or 'active income'.

another reason why im against income tax. a fair tax (say, fixed sales tax) would be much better. while it sounds regressive on the surface, it really is not. Sure, I would play 20% sales tax and Bill Gates would pay 20% as well. Thats ignoring the wealth vs. income factor. The rich incomes are a small percent of the rich wealth they spend. So by enacting a fair tax, more of their monies would be taxable. Thus creating a progressive tax.

This system would also greatly increase the incentive to save and invest while still bringing in the same amount of tax revenues.

Same tax revenues. More savings and investing (think retirement, long term economic growth, productivity, etc). The difference is accounted for by spending being taxed -- as the wealthy have their spending taxed which is largely coming from wealth, not income

7/16/2008 12:50:35 AM

not sure yet, but here's 3 deal makers

1. Restore fiscal austerity/reign in spending
2. Finish the war in Afghanistan
3. Let the the middle class keep more of their $

7/16/2008 1:20:32 AM

Paul

he wants to spend the least amount of money

7/16/2008 1:45:11 AM

I already did my pro-McCain points. Ill do my anti-Obama points (which is why Im voting McCain)

1. The war. I dont support the war now and I didnt when we started this whole mess. But were in knee deep and things are turning up. Weve spent tons of money and lost lives. If we leave now, what happens over there? Theyre left with nothing. We need to finish what weve started for the sake of their country and our image globally. It is already shit, what if we tear up a country and leave before its acceptable?

2. Healthcare. "If you thing healthcare is expensive now, wait until its free". But seriously. a) Half of those who dont have healthcare can afford it. Of those who cant afford, a large portion are people between jobs and will only miss care for several months. b) Will the rich be able to 'buy up' to nicer/faster care? If so, wont that only create a situation like we have now but with a larger burden on the tax payers? If not, how are you going to turn someone down if theyre willing to pay.

3. Minimum Wage. A terrible ineffective way to help the poor. It does almost nothing to increase their standards of living. If this comes at any surprise to you, look it up on the internet. Encourages people to drop out of hs. More people (talented) enter the workforce that wouldnt otherwise and crowd out those people who can only work for the minimum wage. It is essentially a tax on small businesses. Increased costs, increased prices. Bye bye increased wages. Also, who gets the minimum wage? Mostly people under 25. Those on it above 25 are 90% likely to be off of it in one year. Waste of money. Earned Income Tax Credits are a far more effective way to help those struggling to support families.

4. Lets just talk with the enemies. Lets give them no incentive to comply.

5. Obama thinks large government will lead to economic growth. So many things wrong with this

6. We are in an economic slowdown, call it a recession if you like. The last thing we need to do is tax corporations more and have more government. This will do nothing to stimulate the economy. We have a huge deficit right now. 'Traditional republican' economics has less govt spending.

7. He calls for change and less govt money waste...but then votes for the farm bill and supports it?????? This is singly the most idiotic piece of legislature Ive seen in recent memory. Google anything about it. Taking the top farmers (1.5 mill plus a year) and giving them more money furthering the gap in the midwest. Buying sugar at 2x the world price and selling it at an 80% loss. So many pro barrel projects.

8. This is just opinion here. He seems to be a lot of promise and talk. With little explanation. We can hope for change, want more, fight back, change things...but how? All of his answers seem to revolve around:

'Bush is wrong, Im here to change things, McCain is Bush, Ill spend more to make it better, Halliburton, the rich have become too rich, cant buy food or oil, middle class 4 eva'

7/16/2008 1:52:13 AM

I'm writing in W for a third term!

j/k i'm votin for football

[Edited on July 16, 2008 at 8:52 AM. Reason : GO TEAM]

7/16/2008 8:48:01 AM

The Green Party is looking for votes.

7/16/2008 8:54:57 AM

Looks like Vanessa (left) all grown up.


[Edited on July 16, 2008 at 9:25 AM. Reason : -]

7/16/2008 9:23:54 AM

Taxing the rich (those who control everyones salaries) would most likely have a negative effect on everyone elses salaries. So, if I am on the Board of a fortune 500 company, or the ceo, what do you think I might do when I start getting taxed more, and loose 10 percent of my income ...

I can almost bet that their real take home income is not going to change ... as they control their own salaries and packages, and they will still get their peice of the puzzle ... and it likely means less raises in income and less jobs for those in the 1st, 2nd, 3rd quintiles.

Trickle down ftmfw

7/16/2008 10:09:13 AM

So you're saying that when taxes are raised on the rich, they have an obligation to cut jobs and salaries for people working for them???

7/16/2008 10:30:49 AM

Quote :

"where do you see the rich being taxed anywhere near close to the extremes? In "

Let's see what the Congressional Budget Office Report tells us....

Quote :

"For 2003, the estimated share of total individual income taxes paid by: Wealthiest 1%: 33.6% Wealthiest 5%: 55.1% Wealthiest 10%: 67.9% Wealthiest 20%: 83.0% Wealthiest 40%: 97.8% Wealthiest 60%: 103.0% "

The top 5% are paying more than 50% of the taxes... that sounds really fair. The bottom 40% are not only NOT paying in any income tax, but through ETIC- pulling money out of this crazy tax system.

What is more scary is that the bottom 51% can vote themselves more and more of the top 49%'s money.

7/16/2008 10:38:42 AM

colemania is winning this thread. btw

7/16/2008 10:50:45 AM

Corporations do not pay taxes.

7/16/2008 11:31:55 AM

they don't? that's news to me.

http://www.smbiz.com/sbrl001.html#ci

7/16/2008 11:38:44 AM

...consumers pay taxes.

7/16/2008 11:47:55 AM

He is correct. Coorporations collect taxes, but its the consumer that pays them. Thats why increasing taxes on gas companies in response to expensive gas is insulting to most people.

7/16/2008 1:15:42 PM

Bob Barr.

1) Because he doesn't hedge on civil liberties, unlike say, some Senators currently running for president
2) My vote is marginal as it is and therefore may as well reflect my principles rather than speculation over who will win
3) I'm sure as hell not voting for either of the two major-ticket assclowns

7/16/2008 1:19:45 PM

drsteve, Ill vote for barr if mccain is out of it. If its close, ill use my vote to keep obama out.

7/16/2008 1:30:20 PM

Quote :

"Weve spent tons of money and lost lives. If we leave now, what happens over there? Theyre left with nothing. We need to finish what weve started for the sake of their country and our image globally."

Your premise is false-- leaving won't leave them with nothing. They think they're ready, and they want us to go ( message_topic.aspx?topic=528743 ). Apparently we've fulfilled our obligations to them.

Additionally, setting a definite time table is not the equivalent of immediate withdrawal, and it certainly doesn't mean we'll be 100% gone once the time table is complete. Obama's plan calls for an over the horizon presence until ???.

Quote :

"4. Lets just talk with the enemies. Lets give them no incentive to comply."

Let's just strawman his position, while we're being stupid.

Quote :

"8. This is just opinion here. He seems to be a lot of promise and talk. With little explanation. We can hope for change, want more, fight back, change things...but how?"

This is something I just don't get about his detractors.

They fret over all the things he'll do once in office, but simultaneously accuse him of empty rhetoric. You just listed off things you know he'll do-- but then you question whether or not he has any plans?

Google is more than happy to tell you how if you're still unsure:

http://www.barackobama.com/issues/

Quote :

"drsteve, Ill vote for barr if mccain is out of it. If its close, ill use my vote to keep obama out."

And this is why the GOP candidates will get more and more moderate. They can take their base 100% for granted.

[Edited on July 16, 2008 at 1:41 PM. Reason : .]

7/16/2008 1:40:48 PM

I'll just vote another libertarian ticket.

Not because I would rather have their basket of principles over dems or repubs (though I would), but just b/c we desperately need whatever oversight we can get of the assclowns running this shit.

7/16/2008 1:42:11 PM

See, there's three kinds of people: dicks, pussies, and assholes. Pussies think everyone can get along, and dicks just want to fuck all the time without thinking it through. But then you got your assholes, Chuck. And all the assholes want us to shit all over everything! So, pussies may get mad at dicks once in a while, because pussies get fucked by dicks. But dicks also fuck assholes, Chuck. And if they didn't fuck the assholes, you know what you'd get? You'd get your dick and your pussy all covered in shit!

7/16/2008 1:43:20 PM

Obama:

1. He wants to lower my taxes
2. A step in the right direction for healthcare
3. Will improve the soft power of the US

7/16/2008 1:48:08 PM

Quote :

"Obama: 1. He wants to lower raise my taxes 2. A step in the right direction for healthcare [if the "right direction" means socialized medicine] 3. Will improve the soft power of the US [New and improved! Now even softer!]"

Fixed.

7/16/2008 2:01:34 PM

Man hooksaw, how much does a grad student pull in these days?

7/16/2008 2:08:16 PM

You guys are fooling yourselves if you think obama wont raise taxes on the middle class. Look back to the last guy that promised big middle class tax cuts, see what he did.

If some chart gives you your security blanket, im sorry to burst your bubble. There is no way he can do the programs he suggests and only touch those above 250k. Another thing, things will trickle down..it always does.

But in true liberal fashion, you wont hold him accountable when he does raise your taxes either. It is always "someone else" that causes the problems with this country and in your own lives. Accountablity is a sinful word.

7/16/2008 2:20:18 PM

Partisan hackery at its finest.

Do you want to address his actual plan, or continue arguing against the liberal bogeyman you've concocted to reaffirm your beliefs?

7/16/2008 2:31:08 PM

it just seems like in a country with 300 million people, why does my one vote matter anyways...just doesnt seem like it means much sometimes

7/16/2008 2:45:58 PM

McCain

1. realistic view on the wars in Afghanistan, Iraq and terror in general
2. health care reform in the manner of a tax credit to every citizen to go purchase their own instead of it being provided by their employers, basically counting on capitalism to take effect and allow competition to drive the costs - socialized medicine will NOT work here
3. general conservative view points - gun control, smaller government, less taxes, etc...

[Edited on July 16, 2008 at 2:55 PM. Reason : ...]

7/16/2008 2:54:53 PM

Quote :

"You guys are fooling yourselves if you think obama wont raise taxes on the middle class. "

With all of the information we have at hand for both candidates, Obama's plan gives me the most money back. Why is Obama not trustworthy and McCain trustworthy in this area, especially when McCain has admitted he doesn't know much about economics?

Quote :

"[if the "right direction" means socialized medicine] "

I'm a fan, sorry if you're not.

Quote :

"[New and improved! Now even softer!]""

Do you not know what soft power is and why it's so important? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soft_power Read up on it, if you're not a warmonger then chances are you're in favor of America gaining it's lost soft power and prestige back.

Quote :

"Accountablity is a sinful word."

I'm glad how you attack 'liberal' characteristics instead of the issues. Would you like me to hint that you're a closet homosexual since you seem to side with conservatives so much? I know you mention you have a wife, but is she really a woman???

See, personal attacks are stupid, try something substantive that doesn't echo Bill O'reilly or Limbaugh.

7/16/2008 2:55:36 PM

Quote :

"if you're not a warmonger"

big "if" these days.

7/16/2008 3:06:05 PM

Yea, sure is a silly idea to influence the world without bombs

7/16/2008 3:06:54 PM

Someone explain that graph to me again

http://taxprof.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/06/12/tpc_1_2.jpg

How does it show the Obama tax increases in almost direct contradiction to his rhetoric? And since when was Obama suggesting lowering the taxes for the top 1% richest? This is completely, drop dead opposite from what they are both saying.

7/16/2008 3:16:01 PM

"Change in after-tax income"

Anything negative means that people have less income i.e. more taxes.

7/16/2008 3:41:36 PM

he's promising more taxes, yes. Not more taxes in order of the first, second, third, and then fourth quintiles.

7/16/2008 3:56:07 PM

Yeah, but you can't trust LIEberals.


...is what the anti-Obama people have been reduced to arguing.

7/16/2008 4:36:25 PM

ok monky, who is going to fund your socialized medicine? Those making over 250k?

I thought i did address the issue. One candidate is proposing massive increases in spending. Correct? Including proposing the biggest entitlement that we have. Oh sure, they dont say that. After all the total Iraq war would only cost 60Billion. It makes perfect sense that you can provide EVERYONE healthcare for 60Billion? GTFO its pure fantasy. Afterall medicare would only cost 6 Billion a year.

And, just incase you still feel im dodging the question or issues, raising taxes on the "rich" or as other call them educated, hardworking, and sometimes small business owners will force those evil people to raise thier prices, be less productive, and promote less responsiblity. It shows the depth of ones logic when discussing education and teachers, the answer seems to pay more to get more quality teachers. But when it comes to healthcare, its just the opposite. When discussing the economy they propose sending out MORE checks(of money we DONT HAVE), but then talk of tax increases in the next sentence. Mind boggling.

Ive made my points well known on how i feel the free market would save our healthcare system, not more govt intervention. Most of your minds are made up, so to debate things seems worthless.

Monky, accountability is not a liberal trait. After all, its the govt who needs to help everyone, despite thier own irresponsible actions. Would you disagree? They are for income redistribution, a progressive tax sytem, universal everything and really a sense of delayed adulthood. Let someone else give me my needs, my money is for my wants. They also seem to have a sense that they have no control over their lives, and if someone is more successful than you.. punish them. Because its just by luck. Im all for helping out people in need, WHEN ITS MY CHOICE. One thing you will never hear a democrat admit, is when people feel they have already helped the poor through taxes, they are less likely to help them on the street and in our local communities. We are a generous people, but when washington takes 30-40% of your pay before you get it, and has these federal programs to help the poor. 1. You feel you have already done something 2. You also feel resentment because it was taken against your will.

To your other point. Europe has become a soft power, just look at france. They have become a PC ruled country and look what that has gotten them. The ultimate liberal country. Where they debate how many weeks a year they need for vacation, how few hours to work a week, while they continue to bankrupt thier country and produce nothing.

Oh and my point earlier about the candidate promising big middle class tax cuts was clinton. Then we got the biggest tax increase in history. Second only to Bush Sr, who had to clean up reagans fiscal mess.

Honestly monky. You feel that obama can increase spending by 270B a year over our deficit spending, and only touch those making over 250k? Does that make sense to you?

The main reasons the republicans are in trouble is over spending. The fact that NONE of you liberals or democrats here want to discuss the looming entitlement disaster, reaffirms my opinion that you just dont care to look at difficult issues. Its one thing to put a damn bumpersticker on your car and claim some kind of moral superiority. Its entirely different to actually know what you are talking about and do something about it. Like these "Free Tibet" stickers. These morons would have a "War is not the answer" sticker the second we did try to free tibet.

Sorry for the rant monky, you have always seemed pretty open. Im just having some family issues and just in a bitch of a mood.

7/16/2008 4:42:41 PM

Quote :

"One candidate is proposing massive increases in spending. "

Your assessment of Obama vs. McCain's fiscal policies goes again several bipartisan reviews which have been posted on this forum several times. I don't know how to say this in any way since facts don't seem to sway you, but you're wrong, the republican party has pulled the wool over your eyes and made you believe that democrat = more taxes for everyone despite what may actually be the case.

Quote :

"income redistribution, a progressive tax sytem, universal everything and really a sense of delayed adulthood."

You mention purely socialist values when referring to american liberals which is simply not accurate. America has never had as strong of a socialist movement as Europe. Sure, American liberals may argue for a progressive tax structure, but that's because it's simply more fair. It's not about taxing the rich into the poorhouse, the rich will still be extremely rich, it's about closing the income gap - which is proven to be bad for every country. And really, delayed adulthood? People WAY more intelligent than you or I are liberals and your calling liberals childish just reeks of ignorance. If you have disagreements with the ideology, fine, but don't resort to name calling to deal with your own shortcomings, like the inability to actually debunk these theories you don't like.

Quote :

"Europe has become a soft power, just look at france."

It's obvious you don't know what soft power is from this sentence. I suggest you read up on it.

Here's a hint: It's the opposite of weakness.

Quote :

"Its entirely different to actually know what you are talking about and do something about it. "

You've proven a few times that you don't know what you're talking about - just in this post, so how are we 'idiot's' supposed to take you seriously?

Quote :

" Sorry for the rant monky, you have always seemed pretty open. Im just having some family issues and just in a bitch of a mood."

Hope things get better.

7/16/2008 4:56:09 PM