For a free country why is it we have the highest per capita prisoner population in the world.



Even greater then those evil communist dictator countries like cuba, china, vietnam, etc

7/17/2008 12:01:16 AM

Cultural tradition. Some countries execute drug offenders, most try to ignore them. We are the only country that gives life sentences to defendants that have never harmed anyone.

7/17/2008 12:14:14 AM

but it's more free for the rest of us.

7/17/2008 12:26:06 AM

Quote :

"Even greater then those evil communist dictator countries like cuba, china, vietnam, etc"

Dude are you really this dumb. Think about it for a minute, there are two reasons. The prisons in third world countries are hell holes, so there is a little more deterrence. Our prisons are like a five star hotel in comparison. Also these countries have more strict alternative punishments as opposed to prison. And hell they might not call it prison, they call it a happy fun re-education camp. Lastly, Im sure a lot more people in these countries are put to death.

Now the issue of crime comparison between us and other industrial Western nations is a different debate all together.

7/17/2008 12:46:16 AM

Quote :

"Dude are you really this dumb"

No need for ad hominem attacks; this was a solid inquiry. Personnel insults not needed. Not everyone is a fucking poly sci or criminology major .



[Edited on July 17, 2008 at 1:17 AM. Reason : l]

7/17/2008 1:16:55 AM

i wouldnt try and compare our justice system to china or middle eastern countries.

but i would look at the entire western europe.

and your question is just as valid. their incarceration rate is easily ONE-TENTH of ours.

7/17/2008 1:27:21 AM

we're a wealthy enough country to build more prisons per capita than other countries and send more people through the court system

7/17/2008 1:30:24 AM

i meant "dude are you this dumb" as a term of endearment

7/17/2008 1:32:53 AM

we have a lot of idiots.

7/17/2008 1:36:18 AM

Well, we tend to define our prisons pretty fairly, like Republican18 said. I have no idea what statistics this map takes into account: people who are openly acknowledged to be in prison? To be in detention indefinitely? To be in any sort of environment resembling a prison? There may be a handful of Americans in some sort of shady incarceration not defined as "prison," but I'll bet bottom dollar that a number of other countries have a much higher percentage in such situations.

We also have the resources to keep track of our population and run and efficient justice system, which I cannot say for many, India and China specifically. Nothing disparaging about them, it's just really goddamn hard to keep track of a billion people.

We're also relatively un-corrupt. It's much harder to bribe or bully your way out of prison in America than in pretty much all of Africa, South America, and Asia.

So yeah, as was suggested, let's look at western Europe. Pretty low numbers, and a lot of that is because of drugs. A lot of it is because Americans commit a lot more other crimes, like murder and theft. Parts of Europe have higher standards of living than we do, and that tends to be inversely related to crime. Not only does this mean we generally have more criminals, but also we tend to have longer, harsher sentences to try to control our increased crime, which means that at any given time more of our criminals are in jail.

And of course, it's precisely because we are a free country that the situation exists. The majority tends to like our criminal laws. There are people who would like to see relaxation of them, or a stricter version of them, but in general, we're OK with our situation, so we vote to propagate it as is our right. Though you could make a case for some exceptions, the overwhelming majority of American prisoners are in their position not because of their beliefs, their race, etc.; they're in it because they did things that are illegal even in Western Europe.

7/17/2008 2:25:19 AM

lol prolly cause in a lot of countries they will kill yo ass for even potentially bad mouthing the government

7/17/2008 2:30:36 AM

^^ another factor is our comparatively large class divides compared to most of western europe, which is, again, a result of our relative freedom.

7/17/2008 2:42:15 AM

any time you compare rates like this you need to:
a) what does prison mean, everyone has a different defintion
b) know that the same crime has different sentences depending on the country

so its not that we commit more crimes, its that more of us wind up in jail, which could be:
a) more law enforcement to capture more of the criminals
b) laws
c) culture
d) a million other things

also, how long are these people in prison for on average? what types of prisons? etc.

too many flaws to put anything into it

7/17/2008 3:36:39 AM

Cheap labor. Slavery is still very real.

7/17/2008 7:10:12 AM

Why can't we be more like Sudan?

7/17/2008 8:03:06 AM

Quote :

"For a free country why is it we have the highest per capita prisoner population in the world."

Probably because people are free to commit crimes if they wish, where other countries have limitations on freedoms to prevent their citizens from committing what would otherwise be a jailable offense.

You could maybe even argue that the average joe in other countries are in a "prision" of sorts, where the bars are limitations on their freedoms.

Just shooting from the hip here.

[Edited on July 17, 2008 at 8:12 AM. Reason : -]

7/17/2008 8:09:27 AM

Socially, we are the leading nation that glorifies the "thug" lifestyle.

7/17/2008 8:41:48 AM

sometimes you get a medal and sometimes you get the chair

7/17/2008 8:48:28 AM

And there's a high recidivism rate in the United States.

7/17/2008 8:52:51 AM

^^^ I'm going to have to go with no on that explanation. i.e. people in the middle of Africa generally just don't get imprisoned. For much of any reason...

7/17/2008 8:54:04 AM

^I have no idea what you just said

7/17/2008 9:07:09 AM

he's saying there's an assload of violence, but noone is jailed because there's no social construct to do it

7/17/2008 9:08:59 AM

I'd say many of the yellow/orange countries have us beat when it comes to thug culture.

7/17/2008 9:20:03 AM

so your saying that morally, we hold ourselves to higher standards than Africa. I agree that we do! Do we protect our citizens from harm (both physical and no physical abuse) better than any other nation? Maybe.

Is it any coincidence that the greatest nation the world has ever seen is also the most capable of removing its "defects" from society? We also have probably the best system and infrastructure in place to handle criminals.

I think we could do much more to detour crimial activity before it starts, but we dont....instead we are good at keeping them away from the rest of us (or atleast we were until a few years ago)

7/17/2008 9:27:59 AM

Quote :

"Even greater then those evil communist dictator countries like cuba, china, vietnam, etc"

That's because we can't execute them en masse like the North Koreans or Chinese.

I think for us, and California in particular, our jails are becoming overpopulated because of the double whammy of nonviolent drug offenders and parole violators. Unfortunately, by crowding the prisons, any hope of reforms are wiped away because resources have to be shifted from training and rehab programs to adding more beds.

7/17/2008 11:44:03 AM

^^^damn look how many shell casings are on the ground

the tank top, flip flops, and neck tie are a nice ensemble though

7/17/2008 11:45:32 AM

I think all the little white pock marks are bullet impacts, too.

The picture doesn't even make sense-- were the combatants even aiming?

7/17/2008 11:49:29 AM

Quote :

"Is it any coincidence that the greatest nation the world has ever seen is also the most capable of removing its "defects" from society? We also have probably the best system and infrastructure in place to handle criminals."

The flaw in this logic is that we don't actually have the safest society. We are a great country economically, but in terms of "holding ourselves to higher standards" we're middle of the road, IIRC.

Quote :

"I think we could do much more to detour crimial activity before it starts, but we dont....instead we are good at keeping them away from the rest of us (or atleast we were until a few years ago) "

The topic of this thread, prisoner population, is caused because we criminalize TOO MUCH, I think. We'd have less people in prison, and at worse the same amount of crimes, by reducing certain nonviolent crimes that people commonly go to jail for.

7/17/2008 11:53:13 AM

^^ Do you think that kid could even aim that gun?

7/17/2008 11:53:40 AM

How many people here are in jail because of drug charges, are retarded three strike laws?

7/17/2008 11:54:15 AM

Quote :

"The topic of this thread, prisoner population, is caused because we criminalize TOO MUCH"

Quote :

"but in terms of "holding ourselves to higher standards" we're middle of the road"

You just contridicted yourself. Which way is it....are we middle of the road, or are we over criminalizing? OR IS THE REST OF THE WORLD UNDERCRIMINALIZING???

7/17/2008 12:48:27 PM

i would make sentences longer and in more maximum security institutions for violent crimes, and less so for other crimes

7/17/2008 2:37:46 PM

i blame partly drug laws and society's ostracizing from meaningful employment of those solely with drug offenses which leads to them going back into drugs.

our society needs to do a better job of rehabilitating those who are incarcerated with short sentences and will eventually be re released into society. Spending 10 years in a pound me in the butt prison for aggrevated assault most likely will not "teach a lesson" to the person who will be let out.

[Edited on July 17, 2008 at 3:02 PM. Reason : a]

7/17/2008 3:01:28 PM

how would our number change if you took the illegals in our country who are locked up out of the equation?

I personally think we have a country full of people who are increasingly taking the 'easy' route to money. they want the fast money and are not willing to work for it like their neighbors...they get jealous of their neighbors and do some gangster shit and get locked up.

lets all quit blaming drug policy and start blaming stupidity.

7/17/2008 3:10:23 PM

^ not by much

i don't know how to discuss race without either looking like a conservative racist or a liberal pussy

but there are a lot of black people in prison both by percent and number

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/prisons.htm

7/17/2008 3:41:11 PM

Quote :

"You just contridicted yourself. Which way is it....are we middle of the road, or are we over criminalizing? OR IS THE REST OF THE WORLD UNDERCRIMINALIZING??? "

When you said "hold ourselves to a higher standard" I thought you meant each individual on a personal level, not we as a country. If you lump us together as a single country, it looks even worse, because we are holding ourselves to a higher standard, but failing miserably, which is completely useless.

Quote :

"how would our number change if you took the illegals in our country who are locked up out of the equation? "

As nastoute noted, not much. Plus, the US is not the only country that has illegal aliens, that might also be in prison.

Quote :

"I personally think we have a country full of people who are increasingly taking the 'easy' route to money. they want the fast money and are not willing to work for it like their neighbors...they get jealous of their neighbors and do some gangster shit and get locked up. "

That's an interesting theory, and surely applies to most criminals, but if you look at the breakdown of the prison population, you'll be able to see that there are specific factors that account for our marginal imprisonment rate compared to other countries. It doesn't do you any good to make up reasons to fit your own world views, when reality exists in freely and widely available statistics.

[Edited on July 17, 2008 at 5:03 PM. Reason : ]

7/17/2008 5:00:12 PM

...

i was wrong

illegals actually are a burden to our prison system

that was just me making a statement without research... my bad

http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2006/3/27/114208.shtml

of course the Federation for American Immigration Reform is disputing this kind of research

honestly, I don't care enough to plow though all this, but here you go for those who like the "reading"

http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=research_illegalsandcrime

[Edited on July 17, 2008 at 5:11 PM. Reason : .]

7/17/2008 5:09:13 PM

^ If you remove the illegal immigrants, we'd still be about 10% higher than Russia (not accounting for Russia's illegal immigrant rate), and the highest country in the world.

http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/23/incarceration-rates/

7/17/2008 5:18:07 PM

it probably "the war on drugs"

that and that only could account for the majority of the discrepancy

7/17/2008 5:19:58 PM

The answer is easy. We have alot of idiots in this country who don't follow the rules. If you can't follow rules laid out by society then you get put in jail.

7/17/2008 6:44:06 PM

When you type "idiots" you really want to type "niggers".

It's ok, we know that you hate black people. No reason to hide it.

7/17/2008 6:46:14 PM

^^Is it at least possible that some of our laws are too harsh?

7/17/2008 7:03:28 PM

^^

Quote :

"At midyear 2007 there were 4,618 black male sentenced prisoners per 100,000 black males in the United States, compared to 1,747 Hispanic male sentenced prisoners per 100,000 Hispanic males and 773 white male sentenced prisoners per 100,000 white males."

You're right, it's really really bad, to the point people literally can't even talk about it. Our prison system is in large part the result of race relations gone bad.

7/17/2008 7:23:27 PM

Quote :

"The answer is easy. We have alot of idiots in this country who don't follow the rules. If you can't follow rules laid out by society then you get put in jail. "

Tis True

7/17/2008 7:32:01 PM

No there are dumb people of every race. Go force your liberal ideas on somebody else, our laws aren't to harsh. If you do the crime you gotta pay the time. If you can't follow the law then you don't need to be out on the streets its as simple as that.

7/17/2008 7:34:40 PM

No one is forcing their "liberal ideas" on you. You think people going to jail for 10+ years for marijuana possession is legitimate? "Do the crime, pay the time" is not a fucking legal principle and it's an oversimplification.

7/17/2008 7:58:22 PM

Quote :

"The answer is easy. We have alot of idiots in this country who don't follow the rules. If you can't follow rules laid out by society then you get put in jail."

Great, this just doesn't address the issue of how we mysteriously have more of those people.

Quote :

"No there are dumb people of every race. Go force your liberal ideas on somebody else, our laws aren't to harsh. If you do the crime you gotta pay the time. If you can't follow the law then you don't need to be out on the streets its as simple as that."

aaaand doesn't address the issue of how there are more "dumb people" in given races.

The answer: it's not because they're dumb people. That would imply blacks are dumb, and that is not the case.

7/17/2008 8:06:42 PM

To goto jail for 10 years for marijuana you have to be arrested numerous times on marijuana charges. If you were stupid enough to not learn your lesson the first few times then you deserve to goto jail. It's called taking responsibility for your actions and you shouldn't be on the streets influencing others.

Once they get arrested they should be forced to work for the state that they are held in.

7/17/2008 8:07:26 PM

^^ What are you talking about. There are sorry people of all races. If you are trying to say why are there more black people in jail than white people its because blacks commit crimes at a much higher rate. Why do blacks commit crimes at a higher rate? Because more blacks lack responsibility for their actions and aren't raised right by parents. There are more whites in poverty than black people in this country so that is not the issue.

7/17/2008 8:15:00 PM

Quote :

"There are more whites in poverty than black people in this country so that is not the issue."

As a percentage?

7/17/2008 8:15:59 PM