To save the Favre thread and continue the discussion started here:

http://www.brentroad.com/message_topic.aspx?topic=532384&page=5

Quote :

"oh i'm sorry a comment shrike made in response to quinn being a moron dictated the argument i have to follow for the next 50 posts"

Well, you can't just go changing the argument all willy-nilly, that would be stupid....

[Edited on August 2, 2008 at 6:00 PM. Reason : ]

8/2/2008 5:57:48 PM

see if somebody can find a poll or questionaire of NFL defensive backs...I think they would be a good source of ranking receivers

or would that not be statistically relevant enough for you?

8/2/2008 5:58:53 PM

Well, at least now no one has to actually click on the thread to see that Ernie is an idiot.

8/2/2008 5:59:59 PM

Shrike thinks Steve Smith is the second best receiver in the league

And I'm the idiot

Quote :

"see if somebody can find a poll or questionaire of NFL defensive backs...I think they would be a good source of ranking receivers or would that not be statistically relevant enough for you?"

If you can find one that was published after last season, then yeah, it would probably help the argument. Otherwise, it would be about as useful as a year and half old blurb from Merrill Hodge.

[Edited on August 2, 2008 at 6:03 PM. Reason : ]

8/2/2008 6:01:50 PM

if at first you dont succeed.. troll, troll, again

8/2/2008 6:04:35 PM

I think Smith is in the top 10.

But not in the top 5.

8/2/2008 6:04:56 PM

according to ernie, a poll of defensive backs in the nfl from a year ago would be useless in determining the best receivers in the nfl

8/2/2008 6:06:01 PM

Oh, yeah, a poll from a year ago wouldn't do much good in determining the best receiver in 2008. We are talking about 2008, right? Or have you changed the argument again?

[Edited on August 2, 2008 at 6:08 PM. Reason : ]

8/2/2008 6:06:47 PM

team(mate)s fear steve smith

8/2/2008 6:07:01 PM

Quote :

"If you can find one that was published after last season, then yeah, it would probably help the argument. Otherwise, it would be about as useful as a year and half old blurb from Merrill Hodge."

seemed like you were saying unless the poll was from sometime since the Giants beat the Pats, it would be useless, as if defensive backs would completely change their lists every year

[Edited on August 2, 2008 at 6:08 PM. Reason : .]

8/2/2008 6:07:59 PM

Pre-2007 Steve Smith is not pre-2008 Steve Smith, for better or worse.

8/2/2008 6:09:07 PM

Half the DBs only play the Panthers once every 4 years

8/2/2008 6:09:11 PM

^^yeah he packed on 60 pounds of fat and added a whole second to his 40 time...its like day and night...its stupid to even compare him to...himself

8/2/2008 6:11:40 PM

^^^wait, what? Why?

[Edited on August 2, 2008 at 6:13 PM. Reason : s]

8/2/2008 6:11:48 PM

I didn't say it was like night and day, I said he's not the same player. No player is the same from year to year. Some get better, some get worse, who knows if Smith will continue to improve yet. You wouldn't look so dumb if you didn't try to grossly exaggerate every statement.

8/2/2008 6:13:26 PM

Quote :

"a poll from a year ago wouldn't do much good in determining the best receiver in 2008"

yeah i'm sure a bunch of NFL defensive backs would completely change up their lists on who the toughest wide receivers are to cover based on what stats those players accumulated the other 14-15 games of the season where they didnt face that defensive back

ernie's analysis of stats > what nfl defensive backs who cover nfl wide receivers tell you

8/2/2008 6:15:54 PM

The fact that Shrike would say Smith is top 2 loses him any credibility at all.

8/2/2008 6:16:14 PM

Again, I never said this mythical list would change completely from year to year. It would undoubtedly change some, though. And because of that you couldn't use just one subjective poll based on performance in 2006 to estimate value in 2008. It would help, if it existed, but it would hardly be the end-all, be-all determinate in the discussion.

Quote :

"ernie's analysis of stats > what nfl defensive backs who cover nfl wide receivers tell you"

Stats from a sample size of four seasons (as proposed by Shrike in the other thread) go a lot further than one opinion poll based on one season. Even though the poll doesn't seem to exist.

I'm not saying that DBs wouldn't say Smith is good receiver, he is. But now you're basing your argument on a poll that doesn't even exist. My "analysis" of stats is more relevant than some poll you invented in your head.


[Edited on August 2, 2008 at 6:21 PM. Reason : ]

8/2/2008 6:18:35 PM

its just another example of you downplaying anything but stats when talking about how good a player is

you've seen him play? oh you've actually played against him? so what, i can go to pro-football-reference.com and pwn you

8/2/2008 6:20:16 PM

Have you played against him? Have you discussed his talent with players you have played against him?

Because unless you have, the best way to determine his value is through statistics. Being a homer isn't getting you anywhere.

8/2/2008 6:22:55 PM

Lance Bass says you are though

8/2/2008 6:23:35 PM

you're striking a poll of defensive backs from the record before someone can even find one because you think looking at stats is always the final say...just like i said in my last post

speaking of being a homer, Driver and Jennings arent top 10 receivers

[Edited on August 2, 2008 at 6:24 PM. Reason : .]

8/2/2008 6:23:50 PM

I'm not striking it from the record, I never said that.

I'm not downplaying its significance, I never said that.

Stats are not the final say, I never said that.

I said that stats are the best tool we have. If you can find a recent poll, that would be great.

I also never said Jennings was a top ten receiver, I said he wasn't. Seriously, what the fuck are you reading?

[Edited on August 2, 2008 at 6:25 PM. Reason : ]

8/2/2008 6:25:10 PM

you're downplaying the significance by implying that you know more about how good wide receivers are than the defensive backs the play against them...its kind of the reason you made this thread

8/2/2008 6:26:57 PM

We've gone through this but there is 2 things to talk about:

Best Wr, and most talented wr. The first includes things like team, qb, surrounding players, running game, coach etc. The second can be purely based on skill set.

Just because a DB fears a WR, or finds him hard to cover doesn't mean he is the best in the league. It has to be a combination of a lot of things, and I think most people would agree, going into this season if the question was list your top 5 wr's for 2008, Smith would be 5-10 range. With a great season, he can leap back up into the top 5.

8/2/2008 6:27:44 PM

Quote :

"going into this season if the question was list your top 5 wr's for 2008"

my question is the most talented WR in the NFL

apparently i cant argue that in either the Favre thread or this thread since Ernie dictated the argument

8/2/2008 6:29:27 PM

Quote :

"you're downplaying the significance by implying that you know more about how good wide receivers are than the defensive backs the play against them"

I never said I know more about Steve Smith than Joe Cornerback.

You've yet to show me where a DB has said Steve Smith is an elite receiver, though, so I don't even understand how you're making this argument.

Quote :

"apparently i cant argue that in either the Favre thread or this thread since Ernie dictated the argument"

That was titans78 you were talking to, not me. Seriously, what the fuck are you reading?

[Edited on August 2, 2008 at 6:30 PM. Reason : ]

8/2/2008 6:29:36 PM

Quote :

"That was titans78 you were talking to, not me. "

yeah thats why i referred to you in the third person...what exactly are you reading?

8/2/2008 6:32:49 PM

I think it is funny too that nobody has said Braylon Edwards, who is every bit the receiver that Smith is.

Seriously you guys want some expert lists here is one:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/24059-randy-moss-reggie-wayne-and-others-top-10-wide-receivers-to-watch-in-2008

8/2/2008 6:37:50 PM

An objective measure for WRs is nearly impossible to obtain. There just isn't a good teammate-independent statistic for them. Receptions, yards, yards/reception, and touchdowns are all heavily dependent on the QB, the pass protections, and the other receivers.

I feel more comfortable subjectively ranking Smith as one of the 5 most capable WRs, than trying to adjust his statistics for the rest of the offense.

[Edited on August 2, 2008 at 6:40 PM. Reason : ^Welker? Replace Steve Smith with Welker last year, and let's see him get open.]

8/2/2008 6:38:05 PM

^^Braylon is a beast...i can only assume people didnt have him top 10 since he's only a year into the league

with Welker...he could easily have better numbers than most WRs in the league based on New England's offense...but talent wise, he's not sniffing the top 10

[Edited on August 2, 2008 at 6:42 PM. Reason : .]

8/2/2008 6:40:54 PM

Andre Johnson is another receiver not mentioned who is equal or better than Smith.

8/2/2008 6:42:56 PM

^well he is bigger than Smith...but he gets hurt just as much as Smith and he doesn't have the speed to score TDs like Smith

they're both pretty impressive since they can actually catch David Carr passes

[Edited on August 2, 2008 at 6:46 PM. Reason : carr]

8/2/2008 6:45:06 PM

It's really hard to quantify a receiver's ability/talent/performance because there are a million different ways to slice this argument (as this thread has shown). So let's do this. List your top 10 or 15 receivers, the guys that would make your team as good as it could be right now, independent of the offense they play in. If we know where everyone stands, then we can continue with the arguing and the name-calling.

My list:

1. Moss
2. Owens
3. Harrison
4. Holt
5. C. Johnson
6. Wayne
7. Edwards
8. Burress
9. Driver
10. Houshmandzadeh
11. Smith
12. Fitzgerald
13. Jennings
14. Colston
15. Ward

8/2/2008 6:57:14 PM

1A. Owens
1B. Moss

3. Holt
4. Wayne
5. Harrison
6. C. Johnson
7. Edwards
8. Houshmandzadeh
9. Driver
10. Fitzgerald
11. Smith
12. Andre Johnson
13. Jennings
14. Burress
15. Colston

[Edited on August 2, 2008 at 7:03 PM. Reason : Those two are clearly above the rest]

8/2/2008 7:02:13 PM

Lets see what Moss does this year.....


Also, can yall put some youth in the top 10...how about, best young WRs....yall got some old farts in the top 10....that are past there prime.

8/2/2008 7:42:42 PM

1. Randy Moss
2. Terrell Owens
3. Steve Smith
4. Andre Johnson
5. Braylon Edwards
6. Larry Fitzgerald
7. Reggie Wayne
8. Torry Holt
9. Chad Johnson
10. Plaxico Burress
11. Marvin Harrison - we'll see about his knee
12. Anquan Boldin
13. Marques Colston
14. Roy Williams
15. Greg Jennings

[Edited on August 2, 2008 at 7:51 PM. Reason : k]

8/2/2008 7:50:24 PM

For Ernie to stress that these rankings are for 2008 and then to put Marvin Harrison at number 3 brings his knowledge into question

8/2/2008 7:58:41 PM

Since some you guys are having a hard time understanding what's happening here, I'll try again. You post your list, then you talk shit.

8/2/2008 8:03:03 PM

1. R. Moss
2. T. Owens
3. T. Holt
4. A. Johnson
5. R. Wayne
6. S. Smith
7. C. Johnson
8. M. Harrison
9. B. Edwards
10. L. Fitzgerald
11. P. Burress
12. T. Whosyamama
13. G. Jennings
14. H. Ward
15. C. Chambers

[Edited on August 2, 2008 at 8:16 PM. Reason : uniformity]

8/2/2008 8:08:31 PM

1. Moss
2. Owens
3. Wayne
4. Edwards
5. C. Johnson
6. Fitzgerald
7. Smith
8. Holt
9. Colston
10. Burress
11. Houshmanzadeh
12. Andre Johnson
13. Marshall
14. Boldin
15. Holmes

8/2/2008 8:08:36 PM

1 Rice

8/2/2008 8:28:22 PM

yall are some damned morons, putting owens in the top 5 after last years performance is stupid, yes he got his TD but it was cause they forced it on him

here's my list

1. Moss
2. Fitzgerald
3. Smith
4. Chad
5. Wayne
6. Holt
7. Burress
8. Owens
9. Edwards
10. Ward

8/2/2008 8:36:34 PM

moss is too old for me

8/2/2008 8:40:05 PM

i think owens and smith are over the hill and moss is getting there, but hes still got enough game to be the best

8/2/2008 8:46:35 PM

Quote :

"yall are some damned morons, putting owens in the top 5 after last years performance is stupid, yes he got his TD but it was cause they forced it on him"

What? Last year's performance was excellent. He had his highest yards per catch since 1998. He was nearly unstoppable on 2 routes last year: the hitch&go, and the fade around the goal line. That's how he got his touchdowns.

[Edited on August 2, 2008 at 9:02 PM. Reason : d]

8/2/2008 9:01:51 PM

1. MOSS (simply THE most physically talented WR in the NFL...i was saying this even when he was rotting in Oakland...i've been saying this since his rookie year in Minnesota)

2. OWENS (i hate the guy, but when he's not crying over his QB or dropping passes, he is a beast)

3. JOHNSON (i put ocho cinco 3rd because i think in a new environment he could be the best WR in the league...physically he can do it all but mentally i don't think he can hack it anymore in Cincy)

4. SMITH (depite being undersized, Smith makes up for his short stature with speed, strength and effort)

5. FITZGERALD (complete beast...size, speed, everything...give him a consistent QB and he's even more of a star)

6. WAYNE (despite playing opposite of Marvin, he has consistently put up great numbers...I thought he was better than Marvin 2 years ago, but last year showed he was at least healthier/younger/more productive)

7. EDWARDS (only one year in the league but has all the tools to be a pro bowl NFL WR for years and years)

8. HOUSH (not as great physically as Ocho, but lacks what he has in that department with hands and toughness)

9. COLSTON (if Bush was legit he would be even more productive as you simply can't single cover the guy)

10. ANDRE JOHNSON (underrated, big, has produced in a bad offense)

I left Holt and Harrison out due to age/injury though they're right on the edge...other considerations go to Roy Williams of the Lions

8/2/2008 10:57:33 PM

^^ hahaha yup

Quote :

"yall are some damned morons, putting owens in the top 5 after last years performance is stupid,"

hahahha

yeah, SOOOO bad last year

8/2/2008 11:26:37 PM

I get a good laugh anytime lafta posts.....in sports talk or any section.

8/3/2008 1:23:23 AM

Here's what's gonna happen: if enough of you faggots rank 15 receivers (c'mon treetwista, where's the effort?), I'll average the rankings. It'll then be indisputable fact, even though ST is full of Panthers homo homers.

8/3/2008 1:42:52 AM