http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080806/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/guantanamo_bin_laden_s_driver

his lawyers are obviously still complaining

btw he was found guilty of supporting terrorism but found not guilty of conspiracy to commit

when it first came out that he was locked up in Gitmo, I was amazed at the people who basically said "he's just a driver"...as if Usama would just hire some random people that he didn't trust

[Edited on August 6, 2008 at 1:27 PM. Reason : .]

8/6/2008 1:23:11 PM

8/6/2008 2:08:48 PM

^ IIRC, Morgan was in a serious accident recently. Had to have surgery.

But yeah, haven't people seen American Gangster? Drivers alway end up choosing the short straw.

8/6/2008 2:13:01 PM

OMG REALLY?

8/6/2008 2:57:12 PM

^you must not recall some of the comments and viewpoints on him a year or two ago, about how he was just an innocent driver and that his only link to bin Ladin was that he was his driver, and all he did was drive him around innocently

8/6/2008 3:30:18 PM

Well, he was cleared of conspiracy charges, he was cleared of 3 supporting terrorism charges, he was most likely tortured, he was against a jury of US military officers, and certain evidence against him wouldn't have been admitted in a US civillian court.


He probably really was a low level nobody just trying to earn some decent cash to pay for a family.

8/6/2008 4:48:35 PM

I don't think he was a mastermind or anything, but I also don't think he was just some random low level supporter

Any time you read about a reporter (mostly pre-9/11) who interviewed bin Ladin, they always had to go through a long and elaborate series of meeting spots, many of them blindfolded, to even get to bin Ladin...he clearly takes his security very seriously (ie we still haven't caught him)...it would seem like the person who drives him around would have to be very trusted...after all what would stop him from hooking up a car bomb or driving off a cliff?

8/6/2008 4:58:53 PM

Quote :

"it would seem like the person who drives him around would have to be very trusted"

You mean, to a guy that is never wrong in an internet argument it would seem this way?

It's as equally plausible that the only thing this guy knew how to do was shit, piss, eat, and drive a car around for "some rich guy that paid him well if he never revealed any detail about the travels". I'd fathom the less people that had a real clue about what was going on the better. And I don't think it is a stretch at all for a limo driver to not having a clue what was going on.


How is it that we convicted the limo driver but let the guy in charge of actual security detail, Abdullah Tabarak Ahmad, go? I'd think that if anything, the security detail guy knows as much as the limo driver...most likely much more.

The deal is, this administration is "tough on terror". How embarrassing would it be to hold these guys for years, torture them, then when we finally give them their day in "court" they innocent on all charges?

8/6/2008 5:08:05 PM

Quote :

"He probably really was a low level nobody just trying to earn some decent cash to pay for a family."

Cool, I'm going to start a business driving bank robbers to and from banks because hey, I just want to earn some decent cash

[Edited on August 6, 2008 at 5:11 PM. Reason : hay guys what are those big money sacks doing, oh you just must be rich and like weapons]

8/6/2008 5:10:47 PM

If they hold a gun to your head and threaten to kill your wife and children, you'll fucking do it and like it.

Hopefully, when you are captured, you won't be tortured for the information you have.

8/6/2008 5:20:38 PM

im glad you know his life story, you should write a book

8/6/2008 5:37:05 PM

You're trying to do the same thing. Lets collaborate?

8/6/2008 5:37:48 PM

no thanks, I won't have the time with my oblivious criminal transporter business

[Edited on August 6, 2008 at 5:45 PM. Reason : btw]

8/6/2008 5:44:45 PM

Quote :

"It's as equally plausible that the only thing this guy knew how to do was shit, piss, eat, and drive a car around for "some rich guy that paid him well if he never revealed any detail about the travels""

I disagree. You're saying someone like bin Ladin is going to think to himself "you know what, a lot of people would kill me on sight...lets hire some random retard that we don't know or trust to drive me around this warzone" as opposed to someone he knows and trusts? He's got hundreds, if not thousands of people who would literally die for him, but he's going to go the random route with his personal driver??

I guess regardless of what the verdict, there will still be people that side with Usama bin Ladin's personal driver

8/6/2008 5:50:44 PM

Quote :

"I guess regardless of what the verdict, there will still be people that side with Usama bin Ladin's personal driver"

I think anyone can agree in this grand war on terror, busting the limo driver is certainly progress!!!

Quote :

"You're saying someone like bin Ladin is going to think to himself "you know what, a lot of people would kill me on sight...lets hire some random retard that we don't know or trust to drive me around this warzone" as opposed to someone he knows and trusts?"

I'm saying we don't really know the true story about this guy at all. We do know this:

Quote :

""he is suicidal, hears voices, has flashbacks, talks to himself and says the restrictions of Guantánamo "boil his mind.""

We know this:

Quote :

"Hamdan's transcript was nine pages long.[15] Eight pages of it were consumed with exhausting translation problems, and trying to clarify which documents, sent by Hamdan's lawyer, to Hamdan, should be submitted to the Tribunal. Hamdan was asked one question -- was he forced to drive for bin Laden, or was he recruited? Hamdan referred the Tribunal to his affidavit. There is a hand-written note on the final page of his transcript saying that: "affidavits not provided as they are filed under seal in federal court.""

It is wikipedia, so take it with a grain of salt. I don't know if his defense ever saw that affidavit before his trial. Furthermore, how do you trust anything that he might have admitted to while being tortured?


You really haven't made any sort of case that he just has to be a trusted person. If he was so trusted, why didn't he attend the Al-Farouq training camp where other wannabes were indoctrinated into the Al Qaeda mindset?

You are only clinging to the "trust" argument because you can't ever admit a change in point of view. You'll ignore any sort of information or argument that might be detrimental to you actually changing your point of view. Standard TreeTwista TSBing.

[Edited on August 6, 2008 at 6:14 PM. Reason : a]

8/6/2008 6:12:51 PM

Quote :

"You really haven't made any sort of case that he just has to be a trusted person."

Of course I have, but you've vehemently closed your mind to my reasoning

- bin Ladin has many enemies who want him dead
- a car driver has the ability to wreck or destroy the car and kill bin Ladin
- bin Ladin has hundreds of people who would die for him, why take a chance with a stranger in such an important position?

You're willing to give this guy every benefit of the doubt imaginable while lacking any kind of common sense at all (which isn't a surprise to anyone)

Quote :

"If he was so trusted, why didn't he attend the Al-Farouq training camp where other wannabes were indoctrinated into the Al Qaeda mindset?"

you answered your own question

8/6/2008 6:28:35 PM

Quote :

"why take a chance with a stranger in such an important position?"

No one said anything about being a stranger. Get your shit straight

Quote :

"You're willing to give this guy every benefit of the doubt imaginable while lacking any kind of common sense at all (which isn't a surprise to anyone)"

A jury acquitted him of conspiracy charges and 3 other charges related to aiding terrorism. Seems like I'm not the only one into giving someone the benefit of the doubt.

Quote :

" you answered your own question "

What?

Quote :

"a car driver has the ability to wreck or destroy the car and kill bin Ladin"

Point? I wouldn't put it past anyone to secure their families future by doing this sort of thing, but this implies that someone could get to this guy in secret and set up this assassination attempt. And I don't get how someone being "trusted" somehow would render him exclusive from such a scenario. Just reference the mob. I figure a thug life kinda guy would be aware of that.

Quote :

"bin Ladin has many enemies who want him dead"

Really? Well, I guess if he were looking for Caucasian limo drivers he'd need to be extra careful, huh?

8/6/2008 7:05:59 PM

Quote :

"A jury acquitted him of conspiracy charges and 3 other charges related to aiding terrorism. Seems like I'm not the only one into giving someone the benefit of the doubt."

that jury also convicted him of something...you're ignoring that

Quote :

"What?"

Why would they need to send him to a terrorist camp to prove his loyalty if they already trust him

Quote :

"Point? I wouldn't put it past anyone to secure their families future by doing this sort of thing, but this implies that someone could get to this guy in secret and set up this assassination attempt."

And to prevent this, you get someone you trust

Quote :

"And I don't get how someone being "trusted" somehow would render him exclusive from such a scenario. Just reference the mob. I figure a thug life kinda guy would be aware of that."

Nobody said anything about it being impossible that someone inside could take him out. Get your shit straight. But its obvious a high profile guy like bin Ladin with many enemies would only let his most highly trusted people get close to him and wouldn't put his life in the hands of some freelance car driver

Quote :

"Really? Well, I guess if he were looking for Caucasian limo drivers he'd need to be extra careful, huh?"

Only white people want him dead, huh? Thats news to the rest of the world, you should call a press conference and inform everyone. Even if you were correct which you're obviously not, wouldn't the big bad neocons send an undercover darkie in to infiltrate?

Quote :

"busting the limo driver is certainly progress!!!"

the "pilots" were already dead!!!



WE ALSO DRIVE VEHICLES FOR USAMA

8/6/2008 7:25:59 PM

Quote :

"that jury also convicted him of something...you're ignoring that"

I'm not ignoring it at all. The point of contention indeed is just how much did he know. The fact that they couldn't get him on conspiracy charges implies he didn't know much of anything...at least 7 years of torture and investigation didn't uncover anything.

Quote :

"Why would they need to send him to a terrorist camp to prove his loyalty if they already trust him"

Thats why they send people to their terrorist camps -to gain trust? Not to indoctrinate would be terrorists and train them in the ways of terror? Maybe you should tell us more since you seem to know so much.

Quote :

"And to prevent this, you get someone you trust"

Or, you could just as easily tell him you'll torture his wife and children. Who is he going to run to for protection?

Quote :

"Nobody said anything about it being impossible that someone inside could take him out. Get your shit straight."

When you inevitably try to copy something I've posted to you (or anyone really) and echo it back, you nearly always fail in an epic way. Try again.

Quote :

"But its obvious a high profile guy like bin Ladin with many enemies would only let his most highly trusted people get close to him and wouldn't put his life in the hands of some freelance car driver"

Do you purposefully not read what is typed? I already addressed this topic. Go try reading again, you might like it.

Quote :

"Only white people want him dead, huh? Thats news to the rest of the world, you should call a press conference and inform everyone. Even if you were correct which you're obviously not, wouldn't the big bad neocons send an undercover darkie in to infiltrate?"

Pardon me for being lazy with the comment, I didn't expect you to get the point anyway, so I'll reiterate it in terms that maybe you'll undertand. You tell me who in the Middle East pre 9/11 wanted him dead such that he had to be paranoid about what low level limo driver he employed.

Quote :

" the "pilots" were already dead!!!"

Stop being a dick you sad sack of shit. There are 20 other people waiting on trials under similar circumstances.


The entire premise of your first post is ridiculous anyway, as it doesn't necessarily follow that a low level person can or can't be trusted.



[Edited on August 6, 2008 at 9:07 PM. Reason : a]

8/6/2008 9:06:47 PM

its obvious you're on your usual troll kick that you always get on...no sense in responding to such a brain dead retard who loves to defend terrorists

everyone loved to defend the limo driver 2 years ago, but only you are still defending him even after his conviction...no point in getting a hardhead like you to change your mind, or even stop trolling, so i'll just exit my thread and be a bigger man than you, as usual

8/6/2008 9:11:16 PM

Quote :

"The fact that they couldn't get him on conspiracy charges implies he didn't know much of anything...at least 7 years of torture and investigation didn't uncover anything."

the conspiracy charges were just for the attacks on 9/11

Quote :

"Hamdan was found guilty of being the terror leader's bodyguard and driver, and of receiving weapons training and transporting and delivering arms."

sure sounds like he didn't know anything about anything

Quote :

"Or, you could just as easily tell him you'll torture his wife and children. Who is he going to run to for protection?"

yeah, lets threaten a guys wife and kids, teach him to shoot, give him the guns, and make him our leader's bodyguard


[Edited on August 6, 2008 at 9:17 PM. Reason : lee harvey oswald for secret service!]

8/6/2008 9:14:15 PM

Quote :

"its obvious you're on your usual troll kick that you always get on...no sense in responding to such a brain dead retard who loves to defend terrorists"

Rofl, TreeTwista, owned again. These are the statement you make when you no you've lost the argument and would rather just try to rile me up. The only obvious trolling going on was what I just quoted.

Quote :

"but only you are still defending him even after his conviction..."

No I'm not defending him you birdbrain.

Quote :

"so i'll just exit my thread and be a bigger man than you, as usual"

No you won't.

Quote :

"yeah, lets threaten a guys wife and kids, teach him to shoot, give him the guns, and make him our leader's bodyguard"

Makes sense right? He does that, his wife and kids die. Are you that dumb?

8/6/2008 10:11:10 PM

So considering the sentencing that he got, it seems like he was pretty much a nobody. 5.5 years with 5 years already served. Prosecution was looking for 30 to life.

If he really was a collaborator he just got off scot free. I don't have any opinions on his guilt or innocence other than that.

8/7/2008 4:54:06 PM

Quote :

"Makes sense right? He does that, his wife and kids die. Are you that dumb?"

I've never read anything stating that he is married or has kids but yeah, I'm sure you are right... its probably easier to force feed someone your ideals than find someone sympathetic to your cause, I mean hell, no one has ever revolted against threats

[Edited on August 7, 2008 at 5:24 PM. Reason : i guess i should be a driver for bin laden, since he threatens americans with death]

8/7/2008 5:24:17 PM

Quote :

"I've never read anything stating that he is married or has kids but yeah, I'm sure you are right..."

So basically you're just arguing without caring about any details of what you're arguing? He has a wife and two kids.

Quote :

"its probably easier to force feed someone your ideals than find someone sympathetic to your cause, I mean hell, no one has ever revolted against threats"

It was just an alternate scenario I provided. The bottom line from the beginning was that he was a low level nobody without much knowledge. This whole thread got kicked off when Dumbtwista offered up the strawman that someone couldn't be a nobody and be trusted at the same time.

That's really all we've been arguing. I feel more dumber because of it.

[Edited on August 7, 2008 at 6:52 PM. Reason : a]

8/7/2008 6:52:25 PM

so you are saying that, even though he drove the major players around, was bin ladens bodyguard, and carried weapons around - thus knowing where weapons/people were/were going and, if not talked to at all, probably at least overheard conversations, he was a low level nobody with no knowledge

wouldn't it be hard to drive/bodyguard people/weapons without knowing who they were/ where they were going?

i mean, i could see how none of our enemies would never want to capture someone that knew of our troop movements and cargo shipments not to mention where our president is at times and how he is guarded

[Edited on August 7, 2008 at 7:45 PM. Reason : np]

8/7/2008 7:44:07 PM

Quote :

"so you are saying that, even though he drove the major players around, was bin ladens bodyguard, and carried weapons around - thus knowing where weapons/people were/were going and, if not talked to at all, probably at least overheard conversations, he was a low level nobody with no knowledge"

I'm not saying it.

After having just a 4th grade education
After being stuck in solitary confinement
After being coerced to talk via torture
After having all conspiracy charges dropped
After having 3 other charges alleging he knew that his work would be used for terrorism and that he provided surface-to-air missiles to al-Qaida dropped
After being convicted on aiding terrorism by 6 military officers

This person who so obviously was higher than some low level nobody, a highly valued catch indeed, got a 5.5 yr sentence. The court system in the US is saying it. Now, would you like to keep arguing in the face of facts that make your position look immature on a good day or what?

[Edited on August 7, 2008 at 8:55 PM. Reason : a]

8/7/2008 8:54:50 PM

PUBLIC HANGING IN FUCKING TIMES SQUARE GODDAMIT

quit pussy footin around

8/7/2008 10:22:00 PM

As much leeway as the prosecution was given in this case, the fact that they couldn't prove anything else signals to me there's not much else to prove. The deck was stacked heavily against Hamadan -- something I'm not even necessarily complaining about.

It really doesn't matter. IIRC what I read the other day, he's basically a basket-case with no connection to reality at this point. Gitmo, the trial, and everything else basically drove him nutter-butters.

8/8/2008 5:02:49 AM

I must have forgotten how many years prison time do you get for knowledge of operations?

Quote :

"i mean, i could see how none of our enemies would never want to capture someone that knew of our troop movements and cargo shipments not to mention where our president is at times and how he is guarded"

[Edited on August 8, 2008 at 7:29 AM. Reason : not high value, indeed]

8/8/2008 7:28:56 AM

You got owned kid. Run along to a different thread.

8/8/2008 8:18:42 AM

yeah, you win, oh wait, he is still in jail

8/8/2008 7:55:15 PM