At least we'll have video games this time

9/15/2008 9:50:28 AM

I'm surprised you didn't mention drugs.

9/15/2008 9:50:53 AM

I'm deep, son.

9/15/2008 9:51:20 AM

i don't really know anything about economics in america right now, but i'd have to think that if another depression came we'd all but be stuck in it, what w/ national debt being what it is.

9/15/2008 10:02:44 AM

you know who's making a killing right now? Farmers. Corn prices are the highest they've ever been. Farmers production is the highest its ever been. $6 corn, 200 bushel/acre, that's $1200/acre farmers are making off of their land. That means a small time farmer (500 acres) is making $600k/year. A decent sized farmer (2k acres) is pulling $2.5M/year, and a big farmer (10k acres) made $12M last year. That is nuts. This has been going on for a couple years now, and is going to be this way for at least another 5 years. Ethanol came in and literally took a 25% chunk out of the market. Demand is through the roof.

It certainly feels like a bit of a recession right now, but go to the farmland in the midwest. They are booming.

9/15/2008 10:24:38 AM

well ethanol is retarded for quite a few reasons, but that (^) alone should be enough to completely kill farm subsidies

9/15/2008 10:26:01 AM

Of course, if we'd wean ourselves off HFCS (which would require removing some legislative interventions), that'd change with a quickness

(Seriously, there is no reason for HFCS to be in some of the stuff it's in)

9/15/2008 10:26:35 AM

good for farmers, imo.

9/15/2008 10:26:57 AM

great for farmers. Traditionally it's never been a very profitable business.


yeah corn isn't the best vegetable of choice to make ethanol, but whatever. The companies have made money off of it, farmers have made money off of it, so it's a market.

9/15/2008 10:31:03 AM

fuck farmers, corn lobbyist and the corrupt legislative system that lets them all screw over everyone else while lining their own pockets.

9/15/2008 10:32:13 AM

don't bite the hand that feeds you, son

9/15/2008 10:33:57 AM

Yeah! FUCK BIG OIL CORN

9/15/2008 10:34:47 AM

Quote :

"don't bite the hand that feeds you, son"

Force feeds.

9/15/2008 10:35:30 AM

^ ditto

9/15/2008 10:37:15 AM

Quote :

"don't bite the hand that feeds you, son"

if we weren't being fed HFCS in every goddamn thing we buy, we wouldn't be the most obese nation on the planet

9/15/2008 10:38:24 AM

not all farmers grow corn boss

9/15/2008 10:40:02 AM

you know, HFCS, isn't all that bad? Moderation, like everything else people.

9/15/2008 10:40:11 AM

How idealistic.

I started making my own bread at home before I realized that shit is in bread.

BREAD. There is no place, at all, for HFCS in bread, and that's a pretty fair representation of why 'moderation' and 'HFCS' don't go together in America. That shit is even in Ketchup.

[Edited on September 15, 2008 at 10:42 AM. Reason : lfdjk]

9/15/2008 10:41:33 AM

Quote :

"not all farmers grow corn boss"

ur right, it's not universal

but corn and soybean farmers are making a killing.


Cattle farmers, not so much. It's actually pretty bad

other crops like tobacco, not sure how they're doing

9/15/2008 10:42:10 AM

high-fructose corn syrup is stupid on so many levels...sugar is cheaper and better for you

also, corn for ethanol is HORRIBLY inefficient...miscanthus is about 250% more efficient (so you can produce 2.5x as much ethanol out of the same acreage)

9/15/2008 10:44:36 AM

^

9/15/2008 10:46:39 AM

yes corn ethanol has a lower yield, but you can't neglect the fact that these companies are making money anyways?


The one advantage, though, that corn has which other higher ethanol yielding crops don't have, like miscanthus, switchgrass, sargot, and others, is high density. You can transport corn easily. The others take up a ridiculously larger amount of space, you can't transport it profitably, so you're forced into either not using it, or using it on a very small scale, which is also not profitable.

9/15/2008 10:48:16 AM

Quote :

"At least we'll have video games this time"

Your theory is flawed... You presume that the power grid will remain in tact, and/or you'll be able to afford to pay for the absurdly high cost of energy relative to real pay.

9/15/2008 10:51:24 AM

^^ my comment was more aimed at the guy saying "Fuck farmers"

9/15/2008 10:52:43 AM

Quote :

"(Seriously, there is no reason for HFCS to be in some of the stuff it's in)"

Amen. Have you seen the ads promoting that stuff?!? Insane!

9/15/2008 10:53:10 AM

SUGAR CANE


RAAAAARRRGGGGHHH

9/15/2008 10:59:21 AM

Yeh let's hate on da farmers and ruin their market.


Maybe the obesity problem will finally go away.

9/15/2008 10:59:41 AM

^^^YES

They aren't even creative. They use the same format, and dumb silence, in each one. Srsly

[Edited on September 15, 2008 at 11:00 AM. Reason : lkjf]

9/15/2008 11:00:18 AM

well now that we've sidetracked enough, i'll get back to what I was saying.


Farmers are rich.


Bankers are not.

9/15/2008 11:00:50 AM

i need to get some land and GROW SOME MOTHERFUCKING CORN

Quote :

"Sometime in late 1984 or early 1985, Coca-Cola's CEO Roberto Goizueta called his minions into action. He initiated Project Kansas, a clandestine operation to undermine his cola-war adversaries. Chemists working in Coca-Cola's laboratory were commanded to reconfigure the mysterious Merchandise 7X, a secret cocktail of coca leaf extract, kola nut extract, vanilla, citrus oils, cinnamon, coriander, nutmeg, and other seasonings. The company also chose to completely abandon conventional sugar in favor of high fructose corn syrup (HFCS), an easy-to-handle but unnatural alternative which would give the mutant Cokes a much longer shelf life. The use of HFCS also reduced production costs, since corn products are artificially cheap in the US due to farm subsidies, while sugar is disproportionately pricey owing to import tariffs."

[Edited on September 15, 2008 at 11:02 AM. Reason : http://www.damninteresting.com/?p=964]

9/15/2008 11:01:47 AM

i bet the obesity problem in the US will substantially subside with a great depression. Hard to get fat when you cant afford food

9/15/2008 11:04:25 AM

well, aren't a lot of the people on welfare fat?

9/15/2008 11:06:46 AM

true, but if the govt runs out of money or subsidies, they might have to work for the food.... heck, a depression might take care of 2 problems

9/15/2008 11:08:02 AM

high fructose corn syrup is in BREAD?! damn, man wtf

9/15/2008 11:08:43 AM

i, for one, welcome a return to government cheese

9/15/2008 11:09:27 AM

Quote :

"i don't really know anything about economics in america right now, but i'd have to think that if another depression came we'd all but be stuck in it, what w/ national debt being what it is."

Yeah, that's pretty much why it's called a depression.

And not everyone would be hurt. People whose homes are paid off and have money in the bank would be sitting in a pretty good situation. There would be a surplus of cheap labor and they would be able to buy real estate at dirt cheap prices. It would actually be a great opportunity for the baby boomers who invested well throughout their lives to build a very nice estate that they could pass on to their heirs.

Quote :

"you know who's making a killing right now? Farmers. Corn prices are the highest they've ever been. Farmers production is the highest its ever been. $6 corn, 200 bushel/acre, that's $1200/acre farmers are making off of their land. That means a small time farmer (500 acres) is making $600k/year. A decent sized farmer (2k acres) is pulling $2.5M/year, and a big farmer (10k acres) made $12M last year. That is nuts. This has been going on for a couple years now, and is going to be this way for at least another 5 years. Ethanol came in and literally took a 25% chunk out of the market. Demand is through the roof."

You make it sound like the farmers don't have expenses. Any farmer with 2,000 acres probably has invested somewhere around $1,000,000 in land. They have hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of equipment and warehouses. They may be investing in irrigation systems (canals, sprinklers, etc.) and they have huge expenses involved just to get the seeds in the ground. After that they may or may not turn a profit.

I have a feeling that the farmers that are making a killing are few and far between. Any farm that is big enough to profit in the way that you're talking didn't start up overnight. Farming is a gamble. You might make money for three years straight and then get hit with a year of flooding followed by two years of drought.

So these guys are having a good year. Show me another industry where people are willing to put up $1,000,000+ in capital and accept the fact that they may have multiple years of losses. It's not that rosy of a picture.

9/15/2008 11:14:55 AM

Quote :

"i bet the obesity problem in the US will substantially subside with a great depression. Hard to get fat when you cant afford food"

You know, I had thought about this, and hoped for it too.

Then I realized that people are going to turn to the cheapest source of calories they can find. In America, the shit that's the worst for you is the cheapest.

9/15/2008 11:18:47 AM

^ they will while they still have the money to do so.... When that runs out, it's cardboard for dinner

^^ very well said

9/15/2008 11:20:33 AM

Quote :

"You make it sound like the farmers don't have expenses. Any farmer with 2,000 acres probably has invested somewhere around $1,000,000 in land. They have hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of equipment and warehouses. They may be investing in irrigation systems (canals, sprinklers, etc.) and they have huge expenses involved just to get the seeds in the ground. After that they may or may not turn a profit. I have a feeling that the farmers that are making a killing are few and far between. Any farm that is big enough to profit in the way that you're talking didn't start up overnight. Farming is a gamble. You might make money for three years straight and then get hit with a year of flooding followed by two years of drought. So these guys are having a good year. Show me another industry where people are willing to put up $1,000,000+ in capital and accept the fact that they may have multiple years of losses. It's not that rosy of a picture."

Granted, most of the big operations are the really big operations. A 2,000 acre farm is probably one of a dozen or more 2,000 acre farms owned by some agricorp.

9/15/2008 11:21:40 AM

Quote :

"true, but if the govt runs out of money or subsidies, they might have to work for the food.... heck, a depression might take care of 2 problems"

fuck you

9/15/2008 11:22:45 AM

Quote :

"When that runs out, it's cardboard for dinner"

Not so much.

The charitable food delivery system is FAR more developed and sourced than it used to be. All social support services are.

9/15/2008 11:22:52 AM

Quote :

"i, for one, welcome a return to government cheese"

9/15/2008 11:29:38 AM

Quote :

" You make it sound like the farmers don't have expenses. Any farmer with 2,000 acres probably has invested somewhere around $1,000,000 in land. They have hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of equipment and warehouses. They may be investing in irrigation systems (canals, sprinklers, etc.) and they have huge expenses involved just to get the seeds in the ground. After that they may or may not turn a profit. I have a feeling that the farmers that are making a killing are few and far between. Any farm that is big enough to profit in the way that you're talking didn't start up overnight. Farming is a gamble. You might make money for three years straight and then get hit with a year of flooding followed by two years of drought. So these guys are having a good year. Show me another industry where people are willing to put up $1,000,000+ in capital and accept the fact that they may have multiple years of losses. It's not that rosy of a picture."

I was referring to their gross income, but I thought everyone would have guessed that. Expect to spend roughly $300/acre to cover equipment maintenance, corn seed, labor expenses, fertilizer, and herbicides/pesticides, and whatever else is needed.

To clarify on expenses, though, Most farmers in the midwest aren't 1st generation. They've had the land for a while, so the investment is paid off. It's way too expensive to jump into the business nowadays. You need at least $6M to get a 2k plot of land nowadays, and nobody will sell it to you anyways b/c of how much money they are making right now. Corn and soybean farmers also don't irrigate. They rely on rain. Irrigation is way too expensive to bother with that.

I also said traditionally farmers don't make money. The past few years have been an exception, as will the next few years. It's a business cycle, not exclusive to farmers.

A lot of people put up $1M+ in a risky businesses.


I'm not really sure what your point is here, unless you are just trying to argue for the sake of arguing. This is the internet.

9/15/2008 11:29:52 AM

Quote :

"The one advantage, though, that corn has which other higher ethanol yielding crops don't have, like miscanthus, switchgrass, sargot, and others, is high density. You can transport corn easily. The others take up a ridiculously larger amount of space, you can't transport it profitably, so you're forced into either not using it, or using it on a very small scale, which is also not profitable."

i'm not entirely sure how true that is...yes, you can transport more corn (by weight) than the others, but i don't know if i'd believe that it's 2.5x more expensive to use miscanthus compared to corn (for one, miscanthus source material is cheaper since it reproduces like crazy, and the 250% figure only factors in source material, land, and total ethanol production)

9/15/2008 11:47:51 AM

Quote :

"The use of HFCS also reduced production costs, since corn products are artificially cheap in the US due to farm subsidies, while sugar is disproportionately pricey owing to import tariffs"

Coke tastes SO much better without HFCS.

Cane sugar FTW

9/15/2008 11:51:16 AM

i'm gonna start a revolution

thats what bored people do.

9/15/2008 11:53:07 AM

Quote :

"Coke tastes SO much better without HFCS. Cane sugar FTW"

We got some of that coke in Texas - imported from Mexico. My parents confirm that it's the real thing.

9/15/2008 11:55:01 AM

Quote :

"i'm not entirely sure how true that is...yes, you can transport more corn (by weight) than the others, but i don't know if i'd believe that it's 2.5x more expensive to use miscanthus compared to corn (for one, miscanthus source material is cheaper since it reproduces like crazy, and the 250% figure only factors in source material, land, and total ethanol production)"

well it's true. It takes an incredibly larger storage facility to store switchgrass and other perennial grasses and produce the same amount of ethanol. You'd be forced to have several small plants every few miles or so because you just can't load up that kind of volume and transport it or store it profitably. I've heard this from farmers as well as those in the ethanol business.


as for ethanol from sugarcane, it won't grow in the US, so you have to rely on importing it.

9/15/2008 12:04:58 PM

and to meet U.S. fuel demands, every farm + some would have to grow corn year-round to produce enough ethanol

9/15/2008 12:08:47 PM

Quote :

"as for ethanol from sugarcane, it won't grow in the US, so you have to rely on importing it."

so all those fields of sugarcane I see when I'm in Louisiana are fake? It will grow!!

9/15/2008 12:23:40 PM