Ok, so I got forwarded a link to an essay about how Sarah Palin is a perfect example of "white privilege" and it just rubbed me the wrong way, so I crafted and sent off a reply to the original writer.

http://www.redroom.com/blog/tim-wise/this-your-nation-white-privilege

Quote :

"By Tim Wise For those who still can’t grasp the concept of white privilege, or who are constantly looking for some easy-to-understand examples of it, perhaps this list will help. White privilege is when you can get pregnant at seventeen like Bristol Palin and everyone is quick to insist that your life and that of your family is a personal matter, and that no one has a right to judge you or your parents, because “every family has challenges,” even as black and Latino families with similar “challenges” are regularly typified as irresponsible, pathological and arbiters of social decay. White privilege is when you can call yourself a “fuckin’ redneck,” like Bristol Palin’s boyfriend does, and talk about how if anyone messes with you, you'll “kick their fuckin' ass,” and talk about how you like to “shoot shit” for fun, and still be viewed as a responsible, all-American boy (and a great son-in-law to be) rather than a thug. White privilege is when you can attend four different colleges in six years like Sarah Palin did (one of which you basically failed out of, then returned to after making up some coursework at a community college), and no one questions your intelligence or commitment to achievement, whereas a person of color who did this would be viewed as unfit for college, and probably someone who only got in in the first place because of affirmative action. White privilege is when you can claim that being mayor of a town smaller than most medium-sized colleges, and then Governor of a state with about the same number of people as the lower fifth of the island of Manhattan, makes you ready to potentially be president, and people don’t all piss on themselves with laughter, while being a black U.S. Senator, two-term state Senator, and constitutional law scholar, means you’re “untested.”? White privilege is being able to say that you support the words “under God” in the pledge of allegiance because “if it was good enough for the founding fathers, it’s good enough for me,” and not be immediately disqualified from holding office--since, after all, the pledge was written in the late 1800s and the “under God” part wasn’t added until the 1950s--while believing that reading accused criminals and terrorists their rights (because, ya know, the Constitution, which you used to teach at a prestigious law school requires it), is a dangerous and silly idea only supported by mushy liberals.? White privilege is being able to be a gun enthusiast and not make people immediately scared of you.? White privilege is being able to have a husband who was a member of an extremist political party that wants your state to secede from the Union, and whose motto was “Alaska first,” and no one questions your patriotism or that of your family, while if you're black and your spouse merely fails to come to a 9/11 memorial so she can be home with her kids on the first day of school, people immediately think she’s being disrespectful.? White privilege is being able to make fun of community organizers and the work they do--like, among other things, fight for the right of women to vote, or for civil rights, or the 8-hour workday, or an end to child labor--and people think you’re being pithy and tough, but if you merely question the experience of a small town mayor and 18-month governor with no foreign policy expertise beyond a class she took in college--you’re somehow being mean, or even sexist.? White privilege is being able to convince white women who don’t even agree with you on any substantive issue to vote for you and your running mate anyway, because all of a sudden your presence on the ticket has inspired confidence in these same white women, and made them give your party a “second look.”? White privilege is being able to fire people who didn’t support your political campaigns and not be accused of abusing your power or being a typical politician who engages in favoritism, while being black and merely knowing some folks from the old-line political machines in Chicago means you must be corrupt.? White privilege is being able to attend churches over the years whose pastors say that people who voted for John Kerry or merely criticize George W. Bush are going to hell, and that the U.S. is an explicitly Christian nation and the job of Christians is to bring Christian theological principles into government, and who bring in speakers who say the conflict in the Middle East is God’s punishment on Jews for rejecting Jesus, and everyone can still think you’re just a good church-going Christian, but if you’re black and friends with a black pastor who has noted (as have Colin Powell and the U.S. Department of Defense) that terrorist attacks are often the result of U.S. foreign policy and who talks about the history of racism and its effect on black people, you’re an extremist who probably hates America.? White privilege is not knowing what the Bush Doctrine is when asked by a reporter, and then people get angry at the reporter for asking you such a “trick question,” while being black and merely refusing to give one-word answers to the queries of Bill O’Reilly means you’re dodging the question, or trying to seem overly intellectual and nuanced.? White privilege is being able to claim your experience as a POW has anything at all to do with your fitness for president, while being black and experiencing racism is, as Sarah Palin has referred to it a “light” burden.? And finally, white privilege is the only thing that could possibly allow someone to become president when he has voted with George W. Bush 90 percent of the time, even as unemployment is skyrocketing, people are losing their homes, inflation is rising, and the U.S. is increasingly isolated from world opinion, just because white voters aren’t sure about that whole “change” thing. Ya know, it’s just too vague and ill-defined, unlike, say, four more years of the same, which is very concrete and certain…? White privilege is, in short, the problem."

9/17/2008 5:38:33 AM

And My response

Quote :

"Tim, this is in response to your essay "This is Your Nation on White Privilege" I think you've gone completely off the deep end. I'm not going to focus on the fact that everything you've called out Sarah Palin for is something for which she already faces ample criticism or for which she is under investigation. I'm not going to focus on the fact that black leaders get away with plenty of shit too. I mean, it's not like a black man could get caught red-handed smoking a crack pipe and still win a reelection bid for the mayorship of a major US city. Oh wait... Instead I want to talk about this term, "white privilege." It seems like the term itself is designed primarily to shame so-called "white" people who are not racist into feeling guilty for "benefiting" from a "racist" system. The problem is that racism doesn't benefit any racial group collectively. If I'm a storekeeper, and I exclude individuals of another so-called "race" from my shop, all I've done is deprive myself of customers and revenue. If I'm an employer, and I pass over an applicant of another "race" who's more qualified in favor of an applicant of my "race" who's less qualified then I've hurt my own business by settling for an inferior employee. The applicant I hired may benefit, but since I'm still losing, it can't be said that my "race" is benefiting. If I'm a banker and I turn down loan applicants who are of another "race", when they're actually good risks and will probably repay the loan, I'm missing out on opportunities to make money. If I'm a real estate agent, and I don't show certain customers houses that they might be interested in because they happen to be in neighborhood that are inhabited predominantly by member of my "race", then I'm missing out on a chance for a commission, especially in so-called "white" neighborhoods, since houses in such neighborhoods usually sell for a lot. In none of these cases, even though some people may benefit, can we say that a "race" enjoys any sort of boon. Discrimination based on any non-relevant criteria is stupid, inefficient and destructive. Worse, the idea that certain people, based on their race, ought to feel guilty for the actions of others, many of them long dead, is itself racist and perpetuates a mindset of racial collectivism that is the root of the whole racism issue. Furthermore, if you believe that racial discrimination is still a major problem (which I don't really care to contest) you're shooting yourself in the foot by inverting the language. If, instead of addressing racial discrimination, you address the "problem" of "the privilege of being free from racial discrimination", then you've just conceded the moral and logical default to racial discrimination. You don't have any right to expect to be treated as an individual and a human, that's a "privilege." What's the solution to the problem of "white privilege"? Should we revoke "white" people's "privilege" to be free from racial discrimination and subject them to the same discrimination as members of other "races"? If "white privilege" is the problem, that seems to be the implied solution. All in all, it's just a really bad term. To attack racism we need to attack the idea of "race" itself. It's worth pointing out that it is impossible to even define "race" rigorously enough that the definition can be applied to anybody to determine what race they are. We need to start looking at people as individuals and not as interchangeable members of arbitrarily and irrationally defined racial collectives. Though the problem of actual racism in America is now inconsequential in comparison to decades past, there's still undoubtedly a persistent legacy of racial discrimination. However, whining about it and playing the perpetual victimhood game aren't going to change that. You can't pick the hand you're dealt in life. That's just the way things are. Everyone is born into a set of circumstances over which they initially have no control. Even once we get past racism, this isn't going to change. Some people will always start out with advantages, some people will always start out with disadvantages. You don't get to pick which group you're going to start out in. What you do have complete control over is what you do with the hand you're dealt. You can choose whether you're going to step up to the challenges you have to face in life and overcome them or whether you're going to bitch and moan and act like the world owes you success, owes you respect, owes you whatever else you think ought to be handed to you on a silver platter. Fundamentally though, those things can't be simply given, they have to be earned. Until people realize this, no progress is going to be made. I don't appreciate what you're trying to do here. You have nothing constructive to bring to the table. However, I guess in a sense, I agree with you. "white privilege" is a problem, but not in the way that you mean. It's a problem that there are people out there promulgating racist, poisonous, destructive doctrines like the doctrine of "white privilege." "

Discuss

9/17/2008 5:41:21 AM

Sarah Palin does suck a pretty hard chode

9/17/2008 6:16:35 AM

there was just a related john stossel article/video : http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=5771491

9/17/2008 6:23:32 AM

Quote :

"If I'm a real estate agent, and I don't show certain customers houses that they might be interested in because they happen to be in neighborhood that are inhabited predominantly by member of my "race", then I'm missing out on a chance for a commission, especially in so-called "white" neighborhoods, since houses in such neighborhoods usually sell for a lot."

I've been in the real estate/mortgage industry for 5 years and I can tell you for a fact that lack of minorities in the area is built into land values and boosts appraisals. The individuals committing the racism don't benefit but the rest of the race does. The real estate agent would lose out but the next five white buyers would benefit because the demand would not have been lifted. The bank does not benefit but every future white lender benefits because there is more money available to lend. so on and so forth.

I do agree with you on the fact that race itself is the problem but that is a problem impossible to fix and your "solution" is a good idea but just not feasible.

9/17/2008 8:18:58 AM

Quote :

"Furthermore, if you believe that racial discrimination is still a major problem (which I don't really care to contest) you're shooting yourself in the foot by inverting the language. If, instead of addressing racial discrimination, you address the "problem" of "the privilege of being free from racial discrimination", then you've just conceded the moral and logical default to racial discrimination. You don't have any right to expect to be treated as an individual and a human, that's a "privilege." "

This is a really good point and I also agree that the only solution to racism is to attack the idea of race itself (and other boxes we get sorted into).

I can also see why this cat is frustrated though, there definitely exist double standards (even in our courtrooms!) for people of different races here in America. Sara Palin may not have been the best example though.

9/17/2008 8:42:59 AM

Not that it is necessarily right but discrimination is built in to the human psyche. People naturally have a preference for those like them. Certainly some white guy in Zimbabwe is creating a thread somewhere titled "Black Priviledge"; afterall there whites are beaten and harrassed with the mandates to fork over their land. Nearly all white businesses have already been handed over to the gov't or to a new Natural African owner.
People in Japan although not as extreme also have a very large bias against non-japanese.

9/17/2008 9:46:05 AM

Quote :

"If I'm a storekeeper, and I exclude individuals of another so-called "race" from my shop, all I've done is deprive myself of customers and revenue."

Unless, of course, white customers would avoid a store in which they saw minorities shopping in. People on this message board basically equate the sketchiness of a bar, club, or mall with the number of black and Latino people they see there. I read an instance where a club owner insisted his DJ avoid R&B and hip hop music even though the crowd loved it because he didn't want to attract 'those' people.

Quote :

"If I'm an employer, and I pass over an applicant of another "race" who's more qualified in favor of an applicant of my "race" who's less qualified then I've hurt my own business by settling for an inferior employee. The applicant I hired may benefit, but since I'm still losing, it can't be said that my "race" is benefiting."

Not if other employers are doing it too, resulting in less qualified applicants at all locations and therefore weaker competition. The applicants of the favored race have completed their job search, while others have to keep up their search for a good, fair employer.

Quote :

"If I'm a real estate agent, and I don't show certain customers houses that they might be interested in because they happen to be in neighborhood that are inhabited predominantly by member of my "race", then I'm missing out on a chance for a commission, especially in so-called "white" neighborhoods, since houses in such neighborhoods usually sell for a lot."

See wethebest 's response.

Quote :

"What's the solution to the problem of "white privilege"? "

There is none, except for people calling out when they discriminate racially.

Quote :

"It seems like the term itself is designed primarily to shame so-called "white" people who are not racist into feeling guilty for "benefiting" from a "racist" system. "

Quote :

"Worse, the idea that certain people, based on their race, ought to feel guilty for the actions of others, many of them long dead, is itself racist and perpetuates a mindset of racial collectivism that is the root of the whole racism issue."

It's more about acknowledging that American society (and many other parts of the world), is geared toward valuing white skin over darker skin. I don't think white people should feel guilty about white privilege and neither does Tim Wise from what I've read.

Quote :

"However, whining about it and playing the perpetual victimhood game aren't going to change that."

Uhhh, Tim Wise is white. He's not playing the victim (nor does most people of color who discuss white privilege), he's acknowledging the many double standards of our culture.

Quote :

"You can choose whether you're going to step up to the challenges you have to face in life and overcome them or whether you're going to bitch and moan and act like the world owes you success, owes you respect, owes you whatever else you think ought to be handed to you on a silver platter. Fundamentally though, those things can't be simply given, they have to be earned."

That is total bullshit. If a qualified person is passed up for a loan, a job, or denied service at a store because of their race, they're not bitching and moaning to be handed stuff on a silver platter, they're asking for EQUAL TREATMENT. They HAVE earned respect and it hasn't been given to them.

9/17/2008 9:46:35 AM

^^

to what extent are they built in?

9/17/2008 9:48:51 AM

Quote :

"People on this message board basically equate the sketchiness of a bar, club, or mall with the number of black and Latino people they see there."

I prefer to judge all individuals on a one on one basis. However, stereotypes exist for a reason. Perhaps if certain minority groups stopped propragating certain behaviors and idealizing the gangster lifestyle than this issue would dissolve.

There was that bar down the street, that is now closed, that was primarily attended by a certain racial group. Notoriously was it known for knife violence and other criminal activities compared to the more mainstream bars. I know of this not just from the media and word of mouth; but also from friends of mine that are cops.

Not that violence does not happen at a fratty bar but generally it is less common.

9/17/2008 9:57:11 AM

Quote :

"Perhaps if certain minority groups stopped propragating certain behaviors and idealizing the gangster lifestyle than this issue would dissolve. "

9/17/2008 9:58:52 AM

I've never heard of anyone replying to a chain mail.

9/17/2008 10:28:21 AM

Quote :

"For those who still can’t grasp the concept of neo-con privilege, or who are constantly looking for some easy-to-understand examples of it, perhaps this list will help. Neo-con privilege is when you can get pregnant at seventeen like Bristol Palin and everyone is quick to insist that your life and that of your family is a personal matter, and that no one has a right to judge you or your parents, because “every family has challenges,” even as black and Latino families with similar “challenges” are regularly typified as irresponsible, pathological and arbiters of social decay. Neo-con privilege is when you can call yourself a “fuckin’ redneck,” like Bristol Palin’s boyfriend does, and talk about how if anyone messes with you, you'll “kick their fuckin' ass,” and talk about how you like to “shoot shit” for fun, and still be viewed as a responsible, all-American boy (and a great son-in-law to be) rather than a thug. Neo-con privilege is when you can attend four different colleges in six years like Sarah Palin did (one of which you basically failed out of, then returned to after making up some coursework at a community college), and no one questions your intelligence or commitment to achievement, whereas a person of color who did this would be viewed as unfit for college, and probably someone who only got in in the first place because of affirmative action. Neo-con privilege is when you can claim that being mayor of a town smaller than most medium-sized colleges, and then Governor of a state with about the same number of people as the lower fifth of the island of Manhattan, makes you ready to potentially be president, and people don’t all piss on themselves with laughter, while being a black U.S. Senator, two-term state Senator, and constitutional law scholar, means you’re “untested.”? Neo-con privilege is being able to say that you support the words “under God” in the pledge of allegiance because “if it was good enough for the founding fathers, it’s good enough for me,” and not be immediately disqualified from holding office--since, after all, the pledge was written in the late 1800s and the “under God” part wasn’t added until the 1950s--while believing that reading accused criminals and terrorists their rights (because, ya know, the Constitution, which you used to teach at a prestigious law school requires it), is a dangerous and silly idea only supported by mushy liberals.? Neo-con privilege is being able to be a gun enthusiast and not make people immediately scared of you.? Neo-con privilege is being able to have a husband who was a member of an extremist political party that wants your state to secede from the Union, and whose motto was “Alaska first,” and no one questions your patriotism or that of your family, while if you're black and your spouse merely fails to come to a 9/11 memorial so she can be home with her kids on the first day of school, people immediately think she’s being disrespectful.? Neo-con privilege is being able to make fun of community organizers and the work they do--like, among other things, fight for the right of women to vote, or for civil rights, or the 8-hour workday, or an end to child labor--and people think you’re being pithy and tough, but if you merely question the experience of a small town mayor and 18-month governor with no foreign policy expertise beyond a class she took in college--you’re somehow being mean, or even sexist.? Neo-con privilege is being able to convince neo-con women who don’t even agree with you on any substantive issue to vote for you and your running mate anyway, because all of a sudden your presence on the ticket has inspired confidence in these same neo-con women, and made them give your party a “second look.”? Neo-con privilege is being able to fire people who didn’t support your political campaigns and not be accused of abusing your power or being a typical politician who engages in favoritism, while being black and merely knowing some folks from the old-line political machines in Chicago means you must be corrupt.? Neo-con privilege is being able to attend churches over the years whose pastors say that people who voted for John Kerry or merely criticize George W. Bush are going to hell, and that the U.S. is an explicitly Christian nation and the job of Christians is to bring Christian theological principles into government, and who bring in speakers who say the conflict in the Middle East is God’s punishment on Jews for rejecting Jesus, and everyone can still think you’re just a good church-going Christian, but if you’re black and friends with a black pastor who has noted (as have Colin Powell and the U.S. Department of Defense) that terrorist attacks are often the result of U.S. foreign policy and who talks about the history of racism and its effect on black people, you’re an extremist who probably hates America.? Neo-con privilege is not knowing what the Bush Doctrine is when asked by a reporter, and then people get angry at the reporter for asking you such a “trick question,” while being black and merely refusing to give one-word answers to the queries of Bill O’Reilly means you’re dodging the question, or trying to seem overly intellectual and nuanced.? Neo-con privilege is being able to claim your experience as a POW has anything at all to do with your fitness for president, while being black and experiencing racism is, as Sarah Palin has referred to it a “light” burden.? And finally, neo-con privilege is the only thing that could possibly allow someone to become president when he has voted with George W. Bush 90 percent of the time, even as unemployment is skyrocketing, people are losing their homes, inflation is rising, and the U.S. is increasingly isolated from world opinion, just because neo-con voters aren’t sure about that whole “change” thing. Ya know, it’s just too vague and ill-defined, unlike, say, four more years of the same, which is very concrete and certain…? Neo-con privilege is, in short, the problem."

9/17/2008 10:50:24 AM

Quote :

""Perhaps if certain minority groups stopped propragating certain behaviors and idealizing the gangster lifestyle than this issue would dissolve. " "

i actually have to agree with this one. stereotypes don't make themselves. they do, in fact, exist for a reason and while they may not apply to the entire community they do often times apply to a significant portion of a community or group.

9/17/2008 10:56:33 AM

I won't go to TTs because it seems like every night someone is dragged out of there in cuffs. I don't want to be around that shit.

9/17/2008 10:59:46 AM

Quote :

"I've been in the real estate/mortgage industry for 5 years and I can tell you for a fact that lack of minorities in the area is built into land values and boosts appraisals."

Anecdotal, but when I used to deliver pizza, I used to deliver to plenty of black families in upscale "white" neighborhoods. I know it undermines your racialist card games, but plenty of black people are moving up. I can't for the life of me imagine how high-earning, law-abiding, Lexus-driving black people who abide by the relevant covenants and other such neighborhood standards would reduce property values and I saw nothing to indicate that they did. Now if you're arguing that base-thumping low-riders and gang violence reduce property values, then yes, you are probably correct, but that's a different problem.

Quote :

"The individuals committing the racism don't benefit but the rest of the race does."

Yes, because racial solidarity beats money in bank.

Quote :

"I do agree with you on the fact that race itself is the problem but that is a problem impossible to fix and your "solution" is a good idea but just not feasible."

Short term, yeah. Give it a century more and we'll no longer be a society of black and white. Yeah there will always be people whiter than me and blacker than Wesley Snipes, but as soon as there are enough people in between to blur the distinction, then it will be impossible to maintain the rigid binary categorization scheme. This process is already well underway, but its only been going on a big way for two generations or so.

Quote :

"I can also see why this cat is frustrated though, there definitely exist double standards"

The point I was trying to make with this thread was not "don't say there are double standards" it was "white privilege is an unwieldy, racist, poisonous, destructive term."

A lot of black people undoubtedly suffer because of the image hip-hop culture perpetuates. It's not fair to judge individual people by the conduct and ideals of someone else who happens to belong to the same "race". But its a two-sided problem. "Black culture" is pretty genuinely fucked up. There are plenty of "black" things that people can hang onto to if its valuable to them to preserve a distinct culture that aren't objectively just plain ignant'.

Quote :

"Unless, of course, white customers would avoid a store in which they saw minorities shopping in. "

I don't know anybody who does this, and unless said minorities are being obnoxious I don't see any reason why they'd start now. Bars and clubs are not an analogous example for a variety of reasons, including, but not limited to the fact that musical tastes do tend to differ along race lines and that women and alcohol are present, both of which tend to magnify any differences in cultural attitudes towards violence.

Quote :

"Not if other employers are doing it too, resulting in less qualified applicants at all locations and therefore weaker competition."

It doesn't matter if all the others are doing it, if you don't then you can out-compete them by a wider margin.

Quote :

"That is total bullshit. If a qualified person is passed up for a loan, a job, or denied service at a store because of their race, they're not bitching and moaning to be handed stuff on a silver platter, they're asking for EQUAL TREATMENT. They HAVE earned respect and it hasn't been given to them."

Ok, conceding that this is the case, will bitching and moaning about it change anything?

[Edited on September 17, 2008 at 11:44 AM. Reason : ']

9/17/2008 11:15:15 AM

Quote :

"I won't go to TTs because it seems like every night someone is dragged out of there in cuffs. I don't want to be around that shit. "

DUDE YOU ARE SO RACIST

9/17/2008 11:34:02 AM

Quote :

"People in Japan although not as extreme also have a very large bias against non-japanese."

I thought the Japanese were the most racist race in the world?

I gotta agree. Perpetuating a gangsta/thug image through behavoir, attitude, and dress doesn't help anything.

9/17/2008 11:44:46 AM

He's not just 'bitching and moaning'. He's going around the country having discussions to educate people about this. That's how you change people's mindsets.

Quote :

"I can't for the life of me imagine how high-earning, law-abiding, Lexus-driving black people who abide by the relevant covenants and other such neighborhood standards would reduce property values and I saw nothing to indicate that they did. Now if you're arguing that base-thumping low-riders and gang violence reduce property values, then yes, you are probably correct, but that's a different problem."

I find it interesting that you suggest crime must be a factor instead of the system/appraisers being fucked up/racists.

Quote :

"It doesn't matter if all the others are doing it, if you don't then you can out-compete them by a wider margin."

It still results in a smaller pool of jobs for minorities vs. the majority race. The more-qualified minority candidate might eventually get hired, but the minority jobseekers at same level as the white candidate who gets hired are still left out in the cold.

9/17/2008 11:49:12 AM

Quote :

"That's how you change people's mindsets."

Yeah well, before they try that, I think people ought to think about what kind of mindset is the correct mindset. My point is that the "white privilege" mindset is counter-productive and is being promulgated by people who are either hateful and vindictive or who are thoughtless and ignorant and who do not know or certainly do not care what they are doing.

9/17/2008 12:05:56 PM

Well I think that "mindset" is about having an open discussion about racial inequality in our culture instead of sticking our heads in the sand.

9/17/2008 12:15:55 PM

here is my take on this...Ill post my say and then you can decide if I have a point or not....and yes I have been accused of being a racist by liberals for believing this in the past (apparently all proud whites are racists BTW)

Every white person should believe it to be a privilege to be white. You are a part of a race that has modernized the world, made technological advaces that have improved every aspect of our lives and future generations, invented government as we know it, invented business as we know it, (I could go on all day about the acheivements of whites).

Africans, Asians, Hispanics....These races all have a tremendous positive history as well which they imbace. Each of these races also has pasts which, while they may not be proud of, are outweighted by the good they have done.

For some reason, whites (particularly in America) have the feeling that they should not embrace the achievements of their race (weather it be America or back in the European days). Many of you will ramble on about slavery...(Other races had slaves!)...(whites were slaves as well!)...Lets talk about America...whites gave up absolute control over the country....I am proud of that! It seems that most whites focus on the few solitary incidents in our past rather than embracing their heritage. Why do you think this is the case?

(Note: please answer the question instead of rambling non-sense and shouting racism without discussing the issue I have presented)

9/17/2008 12:17:02 PM

Quote :

"White privilege is being able to convince white women who don’t even agree with you on any substantive issue to vote for you and your running mate anyway, because all of a sudden your presence on the ticket has inspired confidence in these same white women, and made them give your party a “second look.”?"

Voting for someone you don't agree with because of their gender or race has nothing to do with white privilege and everything to do with stupidity.

9/17/2008 12:18:57 PM

^^The Soapbox racist is back

9/17/2008 12:19:56 PM

Quote :

"Every white person should believe it to be a privilege to be white."

Yes I consider being white to be my greatest accomplishment. I was born a poor black child, dark as coal, but through tireless effort and sheer strength of will have achieved blond-haired, blue eyed, nordic demigodhood.

Being proud of your "race" makes about as much sense as being proud of your hight, or any other characteristic over which you essentially have no control. I refuse to consider my race a point of pride for the same reason I refuse to feel guilty for how I was born.

I don't need to derive my self-respect vicariously from the accomplishments of others.

[Edited on September 17, 2008 at 12:25 PM. Reason : ']

9/17/2008 12:22:42 PM

Quote :

"but plenty of black people are moving up. I can't for the life of me imagine how high-earning, law-abiding, Lexus-driving black people who abide by the relevant covenants and other such neighborhood standards would reduce property values and I saw nothing to indicate that they did. Now if you're arguing that base-thumping low-riders and gang violence reduce property values, then yes, you are probably correct, but that's a different problem."

Where i grew up in charlotte we had a black family that can be categorized as teh former that lived two houses down.
We never thought anything of it and they acted as a normal part of the community. In fact that were
really strict with their sons on who they could bring over from high school in order to avoid
bringing over the "wrong crowd" as to present those negative images.

On the contrary the townhome to which my old high school friend lived at for 3 years and I recently moved into
is actually i nice looking community. Brick double story dwellings with nice landscaping and all. When he moved in
nearly all the places are rented by mostly young families, single professionals, and
college studnets of a variety of ethnic backgrounds. However, he said due to some people like the latter
group you described the community started spiraling down. Although there was only a minor increase
in crime the negative hip hop image that was projected by these neighbors led to many
moving elsewhere and discouraging more mainstream people to move in.

The actual land owners seeing their property value decrease actually initiated strict
home owner association rules along with a more through renter screener process in order to stablize
out the complex.

Quote :

" thought the Japanese were the most racist race in the world? "

I was refrencing in comparison to the Zimbabwe comparison.

[Edited on September 17, 2008 at 12:26 PM. Reason : a]

9/17/2008 12:24:13 PM

Quote :

"Where i grew up in charlotte we had a black family that can be categorized as teh former that lived two houses down. We never thought anything of it and they acted as a normal part of the community. In fact that were really strict with their sons on who they could bring over from high school in order to avoid bringing over the "wrong crowd" as to present those negative images."

Why should they have to be really strict about who they have over to their home while white people get to do what they want?

White privilege.

Quote :

"I gotta agree. Perpetuating a gangsta/thug image through behavoiior, attitude, and dress doesn't help anything."

But this sorta gets back into his whole point about "white privilege." White kids paint their faces white, wear black lipstick and Sharpie eyeliner, dye their hair neon pink, carve shit into their bodies, pierce their nipples, and listen to the most fantastically morbid music they can get their hands on. They strangle each other in order to get high, okay?

By society's standards, they're fucking freaks. But since they're white, we view this as just a phase. Or they're depressed and having some anxiety issues. Get them some prescription medicine to sell at school and snort indiscriminately with their friends. That's the ticket!

But a black kid who listens to rap and wears baggy pants and a jersey is perpetuating a thug image and might possibly belong to a gang!!! Why can't black kids go through phases, too? Apparently, that's a privilege reserved for whites, and it's based on out-and-out racism.

Now I don't expect a constitutional amendment guaranteeing the rights of all children to go through phases safe from judgment or repercussion. But it would be nice if we tweaked our mindsets a little on this issue and the countless others like it.

[Edited on September 17, 2008 at 12:51 PM. Reason : AHA, I said "white children" and "black kids" at first. Whoops!]

9/17/2008 12:45:21 PM

Quote :

" Why should they have to be really strict about who they have over to their home while white people get to do what they want? White privilege. "

Take your hillary supporting liberal hippy shit else where.

To answer your question though for the same reason my parents would probably lecture me for bringing some roughed up trailor park trash looking white friend over who cussed and acted sketchy. Heaven forbid they actually want to change the negative image created by certain member of their race that idealize thug life, gang violence, and drug use. Also, to steer their kids away from this negative influence to which they could get caught in.

Quote :

"hite kids paint their faces white, wear black lipstick and Sharpie eyeliner, dye their hair neon pink, carve shit into their bodies, pierce their nipples, and listen to the most fantastically morbid music they can get their hands on"

I would not approve of my kids hanging out with someone like this. Nor would I allow them to this while they live in my household. When they go to college and are adults then they can do whatever they feel like.

[Edited on September 17, 2008 at 12:56 PM. Reason : l]

9/17/2008 12:55:39 PM

Quote :

"To answer your question though for the same reason my parents would probably lecture me for bringing some roughed up trailor park trash looking white friend over who cussed and acted sketchy. Heaven forbid they actually want to change the negative image created by certain member of their race that idealize thug life, gang violence, and drug use. Also, to steer their kids away from this negative influence to which they could get caught in."

What kind of neighborhood did you grow up in? Was Mrs. Bucket your neighbor or some shit?

Quote :

"I would not approve of my kids hanging out with someone like this. Nor would I allow them to this while they live in my household. When they go to college and are adults then they can do whatever they feel like."

Of course, nobody approves of this behavior (it flies in the face of social norms.) But we view it differently. White kids are experimenting and engaging in youthful indiscretions. Black kids are serious criminal threats to society.

9/17/2008 1:16:23 PM

I promise you Bridget that if a neighborhood had a high "goth" population a similar effect would happen. Instead most these youths shed this coat and actually embrace the real world. On the other hand one of my neighbors is outside right now with his do-rag on and jeans hanging at his crotch. The guys like 30; i suppose he does not work during the day.

9/17/2008 1:21:09 PM

I stumbled across a great quote online about "white privilege."

Quote :

"A white skin, you see, is a mark of privilege. It is not the privilege of being admitted to Harvard even though you don’t meet the entrance requirements. It is not the privilege of being hired independently of ability because of government enforced racial quotas. It is not the privilege of being able to sue whites and “white companies” if blacks are not proportionately represented in the work force. It is not the privilege of being able to call whites every name in the book and sue if a white replies in kind. The privilege of being white is that whites can secretly believe they are superior and, as long as they don’t mention it, be loyal to the white race. - Paul Craig Roberts"

9/17/2008 1:39:23 PM

Quote :

"But a black kid who listens to rap and wears baggy pants and a jersey is perpetuating a thug image and might possibly belong to a gang!!! Why can't black kids go through phases, too?"

It depends on how you're defining "phase." Those youths that started the sagging, baggy pants stereotype are now adults and have kids of their own who look to them as role models. Plenty of them are still in the "phase" of looking like they're thuggy gang members. Get real, it's not a phase, it's a culture.

9/17/2008 1:44:23 PM

Quote :

"I promise you Bridget that if a neighborhood had a high "goth" population a similar effect would happen. Instead most these youths shed this coat and actually embrace the real world. On the other hand one of my neighbors is outside right now with his do-rag on and jeans hanging at his crotch. The guys like 30; i suppose he does not work during the day."

Are you willing to acknowledge that we view our children differently based on race? Are you capable of that basic honesty?

And, of course, kids grow out of this shit--like I said, it's a phase. But it's a lot easier for someone to transition when they haven't been pigeonholed.

By the way, there's nothing trashy or wrong about wearing a do-rag (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/do%20rag). The fact that you view do-rags as a sign of unemployment supports my argument, not yours. And, yes, lots of people work at night and have odd days off. Why don't you go over there and introduce yourself?

9/17/2008 1:44:31 PM

I couldn't disagree more, Megaloman84. I read the same article and considered posting it here. If not for the last paragraph, I might have. Despite your protests, white privilege exists. The white males who run society used to be explicit about the favoritism. That's changed, but the problem hasn't disappeared. White folks remain dominant in this country. All whites benefit from this, whether we acknowledge it or not. As a broad phenomenon, it's not the type of things you can prove or disprove with specific examples. Because of that, I can understand why many of y'all deny it.

9/17/2008 2:12:49 PM

^I'm trying with the specific examples.


^^Furthermore, y'all seem to missing the point when you say shit like, "It's not a phase. It's a culture. These kids blah, blah, blah..." It very well could be a phase for lots of kids, and in many instances, it is. But because your older neighbor likes to wear baggy pants in his own home...you assume this is definitely a culture and you apply it broadly to an entire group of people.

Your neighbor is out on his porch in the middle of the day, and you assume he's unemployed. Maybe he's collecting welfare!!! My white friend skipped work a few days ago. I'm sure if her neighbors saw her, they would assume she was sick or she worked from home or she's a college kid or whatever.

And having those nice little assumptions made about you is just a small part of white privilege.

The assumptions could also be described as group attribution error:

Quote :

"The group attribution error is a group-serving, attributional bias identical to the fundamental attribution error except that it occurs between members of different groups rather than different individuals. Group members are more likely to attribute a fellow group member's actions to their arbitrary circumstances, while attributing a non-group member's actions to something in that group's inherent disposition. "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_attribution_error

9/17/2008 2:28:20 PM

Quote :

"But a black kid who listens to rap and wears baggy pants and a jersey is perpetuating a thug image and might possibly belong to a gang!!! Why can't black kids go through phases, too? Apparently, that's a privilege reserved for whites, and it's based on out-and-out racism."

I guarantee you any white kid who continues to paint their face and dye their hair through their 20's and 30's is no longer going to get the "It's just a phase" pass. They're going to get the freak flag.

So, taking this reasoning for what it's worth - fine. Give the kids a pass on their baggy pants. But at what point do you finally tell 20 and 30-year olds, "Hey! Pull your damn pants up and get a job!"?

9/17/2008 2:50:08 PM

I tend to assume stay-at-home moms are generally stupid white women who have no marketable skills.

Is this an example of white privilege?

9/17/2008 2:55:06 PM

Quote :

"But this sorta gets back into his whole point about "white privilege." White kids paint their faces white, wear black lipstick and Sharpie eyeliner, dye their hair neon pink, carve shit into their bodies, pierce their nipples, and listen to the most fantastically morbid music they can get their hands on. They strangle each other in order to get high, okay? By society's standards, they're fucking freaks. But since they're white, we view this as just a phase. Or they're depressed and having some anxiety issues. Get them some prescription medicine to sell at school and snort indiscriminately with their friends. That's the ticket! But a black kid who listens to rap and wears baggy pants and a jersey is perpetuating a thug image and might possibly belong to a gang!!! Why can't black kids go through phases, too? Apparently, that's a privilege reserved for whites, and it's based on out-and-out racism."

You're trying to apply the same standards to a different situation.

If a white kid starts dressing in black leather, wearing makeup, and cutting himself it will be viewed as a phase.

If a black kid starts dressing in black leather, wearing makeup, and cutting himself it will also be viewed as a phase.



If a black kid starts wearing baggy pants, a jersey, colored bandannas, and jewelry he will be perceived as a potentially dangerous part of youth gang culture.

If a white kid starts wearing baggy pants, a jersey, colored bandannas, and jewelry he will also be perceived as a potentially dangerous part of youth gang culture.

[Edited on September 17, 2008 at 3:22 PM. Reason : ]

9/17/2008 3:21:12 PM

I think whites get more of a pass for supposedly dangerous behavior. Levi Johnston, for example. It's acceptable, almost expected, for rural white boys to be gun-toting, hell-raising rednecks.

[Edited on September 17, 2008 at 3:25 PM. Reason : Johnston]

9/17/2008 3:24:54 PM

maybe its my conscience, maybe its my IQ, maybe its the Indian-American in me, but i do not care about all this shit.

just like in 2000 when the party picked a retard who went awol to snort coke, over a real American hero like McCain; the party now picks this retard as a runnign mate over the likes of proven intelligent & capable fiscal conservatives like Romney (or even Giuliani).

maybe its just that politics sometimes brings out the worst in any collective group, but for me this VP selection was the straw that broke the elephant's back.

Zeus forbid we get another 9/11 or Katrina with this retarded cunt anywhere near the oval office.

9/17/2008 3:51:01 PM

Megaloman, like most Libertarians, has a huge mental block against the idea that maybe a lot of people are motivated by something other than money. Or maybe he realizes that those people exist, but thinks that he doesn't have to take them into account. As evidence I provide this comment:

Quote :

"Yes, because racial solidarity beats money in bank."

There are lots of people who think this way. It's not always "racial" (although it often is), maybe it's "religious" or "party." But many people the world over will sacrifice monetary gain for the advancement of their ideology, even when such advancement doesn't necessarily promise to generate financial return later on (or perhaps makes those promises without basis).

Quote :

"I don't know anybody who does this, and unless said minorities are being obnoxious I don't see any reason why they'd start now."

Bless you for being from somewhere this is the case. It is not so everywhere. I'd be happy to take you on a tour of de facto "whites only" establishments if you'd like. I hear Whitesville (what a fucking name) is the place to go to really see it, but there's a handful of places back where I'm from.

9/17/2008 3:52:49 PM

Quote :

"[quote]Are you willing to acknowledge that we view our children differently based on race? Are you capable of that basic honesty? And, of course, kids grow out of this shit--like I said, it's a phase. But it's a lot easier for someone to transition when they haven't been pigeonholed. "

Take your Al Sharpton rhetoric and throw it in the trash. The current leading (arguebly)
presential candidate is a 50% black male. The only person "peigon holing" themselves
are the people they see when they view into a mirror.

Let me fix your statement for you....

Are you willing to acknowledge that we view our children differently based on race How well your parents raised you? Are you capable of that basic honesty Bridget?
I will concede some that socioeconomic status plays an influence but it all comes down to parenting. Nurture beats out Nature when it comes to world outlook, morals, and becoming a productive
member of society.

Sorry I offended your thug life boyfriend.[/quote]

9/17/2008 3:58:55 PM

Quote :

"Megaloman, like most Libertarians, has a huge mental block against the idea that maybe a lot of people are motivated by something other than money. Or maybe he realizes that those people exist, but thinks that he doesn't have to take them into account."

I find it somewhat remarkable in a debate over stereotypes your first argument is to resort to a stereotype to insult a broad group of people. Bravo, sir.

9/17/2008 4:03:06 PM

Quote :

"I will concede some that socioeconomic status plays an influence but it all comes down to parenting."

Unlikely. The actual data don't support giving such great weight to parents. Thinking about this, it should be obvious. Countless other influences affect children on a daily basis.

9/17/2008 4:06:57 PM

Quote :

"Barack Obama and White Privilege By John Stossel Complaints about racism still dominate media discussion of the disparity between black and white success. Comedian Chris Rock tells white audiences, "None of ya would change places with me! And I'm rich! That's how good it is to be white!" I assumed that the success of Barack Obama, as well as thousands of other black Americans and dark-skinned immigrants -- many of whom thrive despite language problems -- demonstrates that America today is largely a colorblind meritocracy. But a white campus lecturer, Tim Wise, gets tremendous applause from students by saying things like, "[W]hite supremacy and privilege continue to skew opportunities hundreds of years after they were set in place" and in America, "meritocracy is as close to a lie as you can come." His message is in demand -- he is invited to more than 80 speaking engagements a year. But black writer Shelby Steele argues that whites do blacks no favors wringing their hands about white privilege. "I grew up in segregation," Steele told me. "So I really know what racism is. I went to segregated school. I bow to no one in my knowledge of racism, which is one of the reasons why I say white privilege is not a problem." Steele claims, "the real problem is black irresponsibility. ... Racism is about 18th on a list of problems that black America faces." Whites' preoccupation with guilt and compensation such as affirmative action is actually a subtle form of racism, writes Steele in his book "White Guilt". "One of the things that is clear about white privilege, and so many of the arguments for diversity that pretend to be compensatory, is that they advantage whites. They make the argument that whites can solve [black people's] problems. ... The problem with that is ... you reinforce white supremacy. ... And black dependency. "White privilege is a disingenuous idea," he adds. In fact, now there is "minority privilege." "If I'm a black high school student today, there are white American institutions, universities, hovering over me to offer me opportunities. Almost every institution has a diversity committee. Every country club now has a diversity committee. I've been asked to join so many clubs, I can't tell you. ... I don't have to even look for opportunities in many cases, they come right to me." Of course, there is still racism in America. At ABC News we've aired hidden-camera video showing sales clerks spying on black customers, cab drivers passing blacks to pick up whites and employers favoring white-sounding names. Steele says those are minor problems. "The fact is," he adds, "we got a raw deal in America. We got a much better deal now. But we can't access it unless we take ... responsibility for getting there ourselves." He makes good points. White privilege does still exist, but Barack Obama's success is more evidence that it's not the whole story. There are plenty of people in America who want to vote for someone because he is black. Or female. It's not politically correct to say that. Hillary Clinton supporter Geraldine Ferraro said she wouldn't have been nominated for vice president in 1984 were she not a woman and that Obama would not have been doing so well were he not black. "Could I have said ... his experience is what puts him there? No. Could I say because his stand on issues have distinguished him? No ... If Obama were a white man, he would not be in this position. ... He happens to be very lucky to be who he is. And the country is caught up in the concept." For saying that, she was repeatedly called racist. The heat got so intense, Ferraro had to resign from Clinton's finance committee, and Clinton disavowed her remarks. There is black privilege -- and white privilege. It's time to stop complaining about past discrimination and to treat people as individuals, not as members of a certain race."

9/17/2008 4:09:41 PM

Quote :

"White Privilege exists whether you know it, acknowledge it, or understand it. Any attempts to convince me that you, a white person, don’t have White Privilege will result in laughter, mockery, and possibly a beat down."

http://theangryblackwoman.wordpress.com/2006/09/14/things-you-need-to-understand-4/

Quote :

"The more privileged you are, the easier it is to envision human beings as pure individuals, unconnected to other individuals in any way that matters."

http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2005/12/02/privilege-is-driving-a-smooth-road-and-not-even-knowing-it/

9/17/2008 4:20:52 PM

Seriously, at least 2/3rds of that list of "white privilege" is nothing more than democratic bashing of Palin and has absolutely nothing to do w/ any actual privilege. fucking ridiculous.

9/17/2008 5:33:30 PM

Quote :

"I find it somewhat remarkable in a debate over stereotypes your first argument is to resort to a stereotype to insult a broad group of people."

As they've explained it to me, I haven't so much stereotyped as denigrated a central part of their argument, which is that we can rely on market forces to handle pretty much everything, including social changes like suppressing racism.

9/17/2008 9:15:59 PM

how about rich bitch privilege?

[Edited on September 17, 2008 at 11:33 PM. Reason : rich not rick]

9/17/2008 11:32:48 PM

Quote :

"As they've explained it to me, I haven't so much stereotyped as denigrated a central part of their argument, which is that we can rely on market forces to handle pretty much everything, including social changes like suppressing racism."

In this thread I haven't made any claims that "market forces" will "suppress racism" I simply pointed out that racism, past and present, has not benefited whites. Even as far back as slavery, racism was uneconomic in that it could only be maintained because the minority of slave-owning whites (and slave owning free blacks, while we're at it) were able to pass off many of the costs of slavery onto the majority of non-slave-owning whites through such policies as government enforcement of fugitive slave laws. Obviously, simply being uneconomic wasn't enough to prevent slavery from happening, that it did is a matter of historical record. Likewise for Jim Crow.

If people are dead-set on being racist, they will be racist. However, they will pay a price for their irrationality.

I refuse to feel guilt for "benefiting" from the racism of others when only a very few can really be said to have ever benefited from racism, and it certainly cannot be said that the "white race" has benefited from racism. Being white may be pretty sweet, but it would be much sweeter if our ancestors hadn't expended so much blood and treasure trying to keep the dark man down.

If reducing the prevalence and intensity of racism is your goal, you have to do it by changing attitudes. Government decrees can't make someone who hates you because of your race respect you, nor can market forces, that takes time, gentle persuasion and the effort entailed by being genuinely worthy of respect.

[Edited on September 18, 2008 at 4:54 AM. Reason : ']

9/18/2008 4:49:38 AM