Thanks

Specifically to everyone who voted for Michael Munger for Governor. Because of your votes, the Libertarian party is now permanently on the NC ticket. This is a HUGE step forward for 3rd party viability. It means in the next election cycle, Libertarian candidates can spend their time and campaign dollars on WINNING, instead of just gaining entry to compete.

Munger specifically won 2.6% of the vote, surpassing the 2% needed to gain ballot inclusion. That was the intention of his campaign this year and it was successful!. Now he (and others) can actually begin preparing for real competition in 2010 and 2012.

11/7/2008 4:49:53 PM

i voted for Munger. that guy pwns

11/7/2008 4:51:15 PM

i had no idea that munger was endorsed by TWW.

11/7/2008 4:52:24 PM

What percentage did that cunt Perdue beat McCrory by?

11/7/2008 4:53:29 PM

Adaptable third party platforms are usually absorbed by Pepsi and/or Coke.

11/7/2008 4:55:27 PM

11/7/2008 4:57:05 PM

I voted for Munger.

11/7/2008 4:57:25 PM

munger is awesomeness

11/7/2008 4:58:55 PM

I voted Libertarian when available, just like I do every year.

11/7/2008 5:04:13 PM

11/7/2008 5:09:44 PM

11/7/2008 5:10:14 PM

woo

11/7/2008 5:12:32 PM

Cheers!!

11/7/2008 5:25:01 PM

Just so I am set straight about this party, on the political scale Libertarians are 100% freedom, complete personal freedom, no government involvement. Is this correct?

11/7/2008 5:26:11 PM

I wonder if I'll be able to go back to being registered as a Libertarian now? I'll have to check that out.

11/7/2008 5:26:45 PM

^^Limited government involvement... You're suggesting something a bit closer to a form of anarchism.

100% freedom would also mean the freedom to kill, steal, and do any number of other illegal things that actually should be illegal.

[Edited on November 7, 2008 at 5:28 PM. Reason : .]

11/7/2008 5:27:52 PM

11/7/2008 5:28:33 PM

Ok, I have been doing some research on the Libertarian Party and the platform, to me, does seem like a mild form of anarchy. I can't believe how many of you actually entertain these kinds of thoughts.



[Edited on November 7, 2008 at 5:40 PM. Reason : f]

11/7/2008 5:30:42 PM

^^^^^ Pro economic freedom, pro-personal freedom. Foreign policy is a mixed bag, but largely isolationist-leaning.

It isn't that they're against government involvement per se. It's just that they feel the government impedes freedom more than sponsors it. To paraphrase Barry Goldwater, the legitimate function of government is to maximize freedom. Sometimes that requires regulation and involvement; most of the time it involves getting out of the way. Libertarianism is also sort of the cousin of Constitutionalism (since the country was essentially rooted in libertarianism), and sometimes Libertarians are against the federal government doing things that are good ideas, except they are the job and the jurisdiction of the States.

^ Well, the problem (and the reason I often don't actually vote Libertarian), is that most of the capital-"L" types are ideologues, and not concerned in any way with pragmatism or reality. I know what Goldwater quote someone else is surely about to use to respond to that statement, and sometimes I agree, but you have to use some common sense.

[Edited on November 7, 2008 at 5:41 PM. Reason : asdfasa]

11/7/2008 5:37:22 PM

Taking the philosophies to an extreme conclusion would indeed result in anarchism (which, given that societies tend to naturally form governments over themselves anyway, may not even be able to exist in a pure form depending upon how you define it... but this is irrelevant)... but Libertarian policies stop far short of being anarchist, especially in modern America (where the focus is largely upon upholding the Constitution as it was originally created and envisioned).

Also, what Duke said. That was far more eloquently put, and it used less parenthesis.


[Edited on November 7, 2008 at 5:50 PM. Reason : .]

11/7/2008 5:38:56 PM

I told my republican friends to vote libertarian, because Obama was going to win regardless of what they did, and it would at least help to actually change the fundamentals of our politics in NC.

I'm glad they reached this milestone.

11/7/2008 5:39:25 PM

Do all of you in this thread make over 250k to where government involvement is an issue? I guess I could be in a thread of all ballers.

Again, correct me if I am wrong

But I enjoy not paying tolls at every exit, not paying Duke money for and N.C. State education, and the FDIC insuring my money when the idiots at Wachovia, when left up to themselves, fuck everything up with sub-prime mortgages.

11/7/2008 5:41:10 PM

Since you don't understand the party platform, how can you believe what Libertarians think?

Libertarians believe in limited FEDERAL government, as outlined by the constitution. They believe in limited state government as outlined by the individual states' constitutions (how many people even know that states have constitutions?)

There is no hint of anarchy. It's about community involvement, man helping fellow man, not the government being the nanny for it's citizens. Libertarianism is about personal responsibility to themselves AND their community. It's about giving other people the respect, privacy and choice they deserve. It's about the belief that freedom is more important than guarantees of comfort, stability, and easiness. It's about the realization that providing equal opportunity is better than providing equal recognition.

11/7/2008 5:43:08 PM

Quote :

"Do all of you in this thread make over 250k to where government involvement is an issue? I guess I could be in a thread of all ballers. Again, correct me if I am wrong But I enjoy not paying tolls at every exit, not paying Duke money for and N.C. State education, and the FDIC insuring my money when the idiots at Wachovia, when left up to themselves, fuck everything up with sub-prime mortgages."

Where is this 250k coming from? North Carolina has some of the highest income tax, property tax and sales tax in the country. And it ain't the rich people who get fucked by it. My last year of being self-employed, I paid over 25% of my income in taxes, 15% of that being NC income tax. That was on a TOTAL yearly income of ~32k. It single-handedly put me from a living wage to WAY below the poverty line.

Duke is a private university dude and N.C. State is a land grant university. Your taxes go to neither. And the FDIC hasn't been tapped by Wachovia, or any bank for that matter. You might want to learn a little about your own government. Because so far, nothing you've said makes any sense.

11/7/2008 5:47:50 PM

I'm a college student, so no I don't make that much. Also, I don't see how someone's personal earnings affect whether or not government involvement is an issue... government involvement in any earnings bracket has an effect on everyone in the economy. Also, I believe that practically all Americans are over-taxed, not just the high-earners. The US government spends FAR more than it should, and takes more from the people than it deserves and needs. Also, government involvement in social issues affects all people regardless of income.

With regards to your Wachovia reference, since I'm not sure what you're trying to imply (facts straight, please?), the bailout/housing collapse was not caused by the market acting freely and without regulation. There was government involvement that shifted economic incentive towards sub-prime lending, and being the profit-driven companies that they are supposed to be, banks followed the path the government had set up for them.

[Edited on November 7, 2008 at 5:51 PM. Reason : .]

11/7/2008 5:48:48 PM

I see what you all are saying and I guess I am just to moderate for you crazy kids now days. In my personal opinion this sounds as ridiculous as socialism is on the liberal side. This is the same thing, but the opposite end of the spectrum.

Both are terrible for the country and will never work. Think moderate ladies and gentlemen.

11/7/2008 5:51:46 PM

yeh! let's get together and waste our votes!

11/7/2008 5:52:16 PM

You're moderate?

So, then, where would you say you fit in on the following chart?


(ignore the dot, it was the best diamond I saw on google images)

Also, looking at that other "I voted Libertarian" thread, they have a much better political spectrum chart. Fuck google images, I was actually looking for something closer to that one.

[Edited on November 7, 2008 at 5:58 PM. Reason : .]

11/7/2008 5:57:16 PM

Where would you say you fit on this scale? If you prefer to use subjective charts/scales.

http://tomgreport.homestead.com/politicalscale.html

11/7/2008 6:00:40 PM

<----

11/7/2008 6:04:14 PM

^^A straight-line scale is fundamentally flawed because it fails to recognize the separation of social and economic issues, and a person's ability to evaluate the two differently. Besides that, the one you just posted doesn't even include Anarchist, and it puts Facism right in line with Socialism and Communism, as though they're all along the exact same philosophical train of thought...

Also, that site is coded horribly.

Also, those questions and answers are worded terribly, and many could be interpreted in different ways.


^Yeah, that's the good one. What site is that test on? I've only seen the chart linked to image hosting sites.

[Edited on November 7, 2008 at 6:08 PM. Reason : .]

11/7/2008 6:07:26 PM

Fiscal conservative, social liberal = libertarian. basically.

It's not crazy or dangerous policy-wise. It's the middle ground. If you a moderate, then it's overwhelmingly likely that you are a centrist libertarian in your ideals.

11/7/2008 6:08:07 PM

Ok, thanks for that last cartoon. It does prove what I was thinking this entire time that Libertarianism is the step right before Anarchy.

11/7/2008 6:08:28 PM

^in the same way that democracy is a step away from socialism, and a republic is a step away from fascism.

It's a stupid point, because it will never happen.

11/7/2008 6:09:38 PM

Quote :

"the FDIC insuring my money when the idiots at Wachovia, when left up to themselves, fuck everything up with sub-prime mortgages. "

sub-prime mortgages wouldn't have existed in the first place if there wasn't government incentive for banks to create them and the security of knowing that our government would bail their stupid asses out when they lost most of their assets.

11/7/2008 6:10:14 PM

Because they are "in line" does not mean that there are not vast differences. You seem to like dismissing things out of hand simply because they don't fall into your own view, which seems to be rather poorly-founded, given all that you've said in this thread and the extremely bad political spectrum chart that you linked to.

11/7/2008 6:10:31 PM

@ this thread.

Mike Munger works at Duke in the Poli Sci department. For any of us in Raleigh, it wouldn't be difficult to get a meeting with him if you really wanted to have a rational, intelligent discussion with him.

http://www.duke.edu/~munger/contact.html

11/7/2008 6:11:36 PM

linkfail

11/7/2008 6:12:07 PM

^^^ http://www.okcupid.com/politics

thank sumfoo1 for that one.

[Edited on November 7, 2008 at 6:12 PM. Reason : ^]

11/7/2008 6:12:07 PM

where is your woman?!

and why aren't we hanging out?!?!

11/7/2008 6:15:31 PM

my woman?

in the other room playing dress up

11/7/2008 6:18:26 PM

^^^Cool, thanks for that... since I don't feel messing with the image right now, I'll just use this:

Quote :

"You are a Social Liberal (80% permissive) and an... Economic Conservative (68% permissive) You are best described as a: Libertarian"

[Edited on November 7, 2008 at 6:18 PM. Reason : .]

11/7/2008 6:18:37 PM

yeah, i couldn't get the image to work without copy/pasting and saving to photobucket.

11/7/2008 6:19:15 PM

^^^haha

ok ok

[Edited on November 7, 2008 at 6:19 PM. Reason : sdf]

11/7/2008 6:19:29 PM

HAHA, they have Darth Vader on the Totalitarian side when you filter by "Famous People"

11/7/2008 6:20:24 PM

When I was working early voting sites for some democrats, this libertarian had driven down to NC to work early voting sites giving out info on libertarians. This friendly chap who refers to himself as an enemy of the state apparently hasn't paid taxes in sometime & believes everyone is being morally irresponsible if they are paying. We got to hang out at the same early voting sites a number of times.



It even has inspiring music & lots of fun language.

"The last full measure of devotion"
"Embrace defiance, rebellion, & resistance"
"false prophets"
"rise up to defeat them"
"revolution"
"the passion of our hearts will be raised with our fists"
---

And he was in NC to support an anti-gay marriage, anti-choice candidate for congress... who also opposes federal funding for education & research in the research triangle. And this is where the libertarian movement loses any chance of having me as a part of it.



Despite my result on this test, I am a registered Democrat & strongly identify as such. In so far as I have any libertarian leanings it would be of this variety I suppose:

Quote :

"Civil libertarianism is a strain of political thought that supports civil liberties, or who emphasizes the supremacy of individual rights and personal freedoms over and against any kind of authority (such as a state, a corporation, social norms imposed through peer pressure, etc).[1] Civil libertarianism is not a complete ideology; rather, it is merely a collection of views on the specific issues of civil liberties and civil rights. Because of this, a civil libertarian outlook is compatible with many other political philosophies, and civil libertarianism is found on both the right and left of modern politics.[2] The primary concern of the civil libertarian is the relationship of the government to the individual. The civil libertarian seeks, in theory, to restrict this relationship to an absolute minimum in which the state can function and provide basic services and securities without excessively interfering in the lives of its citizens. One key cause of civil libertarianism is upholding free speech. Specifically, civil libertarians oppose bans on pornography, hate speech, and obscenity. Although they may or may not personally condone behaviors associated with these issues, civil libertarians hold that the advantages of unfettered public discourse outweigh all disadvantages. Other civil libertarian positions include support for at least partial legalization of illicit substances (marijuana, etc.), a strong demarcation between religion and politics, and, more recently, support for gay marriage. The most prominent civil libertarian organization in the United States today is the American Civil Liberties Union. In the past twenty years, with the advent of personal computers, the internet, email, cellular phones, and other information technology advances, a subset of civil libertarianism has arisen that focuses on protecting individuals’ digital rights and privacy. The organization most closely affiliated with this sort of civil libertarianism is the Electronic Frontier Foundation."

I have family members in Charlotte & Pittsburgh involved & employed with the ACLU, & I chat occasionally with the executive director of the North Carolina branch of the ACLU. This brand of libertarianism is something that could appeal to me, except for most libertarians (BJ Lawson for example) overlap too much with republicans & are anti-gay marriage. Some are anti-marriage altogether, but since they will never effectively act on that position it is a pretty useless stance to take.

[Edited on November 7, 2008 at 6:22 PM. Reason : .]

11/7/2008 6:20:33 PM

Quote :

"Now he (and others) can actually begin preparing for real competition in 2010 and 2012."

lol.

You'll be dead before you see that party get more than 10% of the national vote.

11/7/2008 6:23:16 PM

^^Video no longer available. Working now... wtf youtube.

Also, chances are anyone referring to themselves as an "enemy of the state" when not acting as a member of a rebel militia is probably nutty, and likely does not have a rational foundation for their beliefs.

^Agreed, any NC candidate for governor is likely not to get 10% of the national vote. Probably because this is an in-state election we are talking about.


[Edited on November 7, 2008 at 6:25 PM. Reason : .]

11/7/2008 6:23:16 PM

I can still play the video

11/7/2008 6:24:21 PM

Quote :

"It's about giving other people the respect, privacy and choice they deserve. It's about the belief that freedom is more important than guarantees of comfort, stability, and easiness. It's about the realization that providing equal opportunity is better than providing equal recognition."

Great ideology, but that's not reality.

I'd like to see a municipality where they don't collect taxes, but instead everyone "volunteers" their money and support to help their fellow man.

Shit would last about one week until people started bitching about their being no electricity, running water, maintained roads, education, or anything else that taxes pay for.

And "equal opportunity" is just an excuse that White people give for not feeling bad for the African-American who couldn't make it out of the ghetto to be as successful as them.

11/7/2008 6:27:02 PM