From the President-elect's website:

Quote :

"Obama will call on citizens of all ages to serve America, by developing a plan to require 50 hours of community service in middle school and high school and 100 hours of community service in college every year."

Is anyone else disturbed by this? For one, it is completely antithetical to the principles this country was founded upon. Secondly, community service, when mandated, will not produce the same altruistic effect as voluntary community service. If students are forced to do something without pay, the obvious outcome will be for most to half-ass their service and be resentful of the benefactors. Lastly, when we are having trouble as it is convincing students to not drop out of school, how will adding one more, significant hurdle help? For those in high school who must work part-time to help with family bills, does this not increase the likelihood they will drop out to maintain that income?

11/7/2008 6:30:49 PM

isn't this only if you're wanting the government to foot the bill for your education?

11/7/2008 6:32:23 PM

post source specifically

^ think so

11/7/2008 6:33:26 PM

glad i'm out of college

young whipper snappers these days could use some community service

[Edited on November 7, 2008 at 6:34 PM. Reason : L]

11/7/2008 6:34:18 PM

more gov't control over people's lives is what the left is about. the bed has been made, but the bad part is we conservatives will have to lay in it too.

11/7/2008 6:51:16 PM

i remember reading about this in the constitution

11/7/2008 7:03:26 PM

good luck kids

11/7/2008 7:06:23 PM

If it's only for people receiving federal aid for tuition, I actually don't see that much of a problem with it... these people are getting huge personal benefits from tax dollars, but they're likely too poor to pay much (if any) taxation of their own. At its roots, this bill seems to actually be rather capitalist... the student is receiving money, and in return is providing a minor service.

Coming from the assumption that citizens being taxed for federally-funded higher education is fair in the first place (which a great many people seem to take as a basis lately), this seems to be fair. It's basically a non-monetary tax... at least, it's certainly better than the student in question not footing any of the bill at all, tax-wise.

HOWEVER, 100 hours a year seems to be VERY overboard, in my opinion (do they want to take away a healthy social life, or free time for exercise or simple relaxation?), but something like 20-30 hours or so per semester would be more appropriate.



Requiring community service in public middle/high school, on the other hand, is completely absurd. Yes, taxpayers foot the bill for maintaining the school system, too, but when it comes to public middle and high schools, pretty much everyone is (directly) paying the same amount out of pocket for their kid to attend.

[Edited on November 7, 2008 at 7:36 PM. Reason : more emphasis on the VERY overboard]

11/7/2008 7:18:34 PM

yeh! forced volunteer community service. what a great plan!

I can't believe this moron got voted in

11/7/2008 7:29:01 PM

i cant believe morons like you went to my alma mater

11/7/2008 7:33:22 PM

without reading much about it, my initial reaction is that this is not only OK, but a GOOD idea--AS LONG AS it's only for people getting federal tuition money (which shouldn't be happening to begin with, but I digress).

11/7/2008 7:44:31 PM

Quote :

"HOWEVER, 100 hours a year seems to be VERY overboard, in my opinion (do they want to take away a healthy social life, or free time for exercise or simple relaxation?), but something like 20-30 hours or so per semester would be more appropriate."

20-30 hours a semester is ~2 hrs a week.

100 hours a year is ~2 hrs a week.

Not exactly a large demand on time, especially considering what you're getting in return.

11/7/2008 8:09:04 PM

Its going to be great at the end of the year when a ton of college kids are trying to cram in their last 40 hours and I can get them to do free shit for me.

11/7/2008 8:18:03 PM

while I dont agree with making people do this (except if it is for the aid thing then I am all for it), people making a big deal out of 100 hours a year of community service is kinda funny. I mean if you do like 1 full weekend of habitat for humanity you can get 15+ hours easily. I helped out 2 weekends earlier this fall on a habitat house and probably put in 35 hours. If I needed 100 hours in a 52 week span, I would only need to average 1 hour a week for the remaining 50 weeks. its pretty easy to get 100 hours. Then again Im used to doing stuff like this because I had to do a good amount of community service for school growing up /shrug


[Edited on November 7, 2008 at 8:28 PM. Reason : ]

11/7/2008 8:20:17 PM

^^^^then maybe you should have gone to UNC with all the limp wrists.

I don't see a problem with this if its for people getting student aid.

11/7/2008 8:23:17 PM

I had to do 100 community service in high school (this was in Maryland). And I got most of my mine done in middle school (you were allowed to do this) by joining the Ecology Club and helping with Eagle Scout projects. This was also helped by some projects that counted 1.5 or double towards your requirement. I didn't even get a tuition benefit.

It's not that hard.

11/7/2008 8:28:13 PM

Community service in exchange for federal assistance for tuition? Okay.. Mandatory community service for Middle and High schoolers? No. You have a choice if you want to take federal money for college, you don't have a choice to go to middle and high school.

11/7/2008 8:28:27 PM

Community Service is actually pretty fun and good stuff to put on your resume.

You can coach little league teams or referee games. You can help the local optimist clubs and other civil clubs that run events. I think you can even do ride alongs with police and help them some.

Tons of fun shit to do that will pay for your college and pad your resume.

11/7/2008 8:35:58 PM

you do realize that if everyone else has to do that stuff, too, then you aren't really padding your resume, right?

11/7/2008 8:37:09 PM

I'm fairly certain that this would be a modicum of people on this plan. Everyone else would either take out a loan, get their parents to take out a loan (or pay it in full), or get a scholarship.

11/7/2008 8:40:11 PM

Quote :

"I'm fairly certain that this would be a modicum of people on this plan. Everyone else would either take out a loan, get their parents to take out a loan (or pay it in full), or get a scholarship."

How does that apply to High School? Or Middle School? Requiring middle schoolers to perform 50 hours of community service is asinine. The kids will hate it, because 90% won't want to be there and will just do it because they have to, so they get no benefit from it, and it will drain money that could be used elsewhere. Not to mention, they should have a choice if they want to "serve" the community or not.

11/7/2008 8:45:02 PM

^ I was under the impression that the entirety of the commitment was for those getting federal aid. If I'm mistaken, I apologize and that many hours is pretty high for people getting no benefit.

11/7/2008 8:49:26 PM

I don't see how this could do anything but help the country.

I vaguely remember a thread a while back when most people agreed that kids doing work for their community could only enhance their sense of pride in their country. I don't see why people have swapped their view on this.

The only problem is that schools need to do a good job of matching students with organizations. Working at the SPCA shoveling poop, or picking up trash on the road is not necessarily the most productive use of community service hours.

11/7/2008 8:57:18 PM

I think the problem is that you will be forcing kids to do shit they don't want to do, wasting the time of the people/organizations they are supposed to be helping. Sure, you should try to match kids well, but most of them won't want to do shit period, so it won't matter too much where you put them.

Ultimately, for me, it comes down to the fact that the US does a lot of charity work on its own without being required to do so. When the gov't gets involved, shit gets disgustingly inefficient. It's like taxing people to pay for welfare: people will then spend less money on charities that would normally be more efficient. It's the same w/ the volunteering. You might spur some people to do something they never would have done otherwise, but for the most part, you will turn people off to service and waste the time of those who actually want to help.

11/7/2008 10:05:56 PM

Quote :

" I think the problem is that you will be forcing kids to do shit they don't want to do, wasting the time of the people/organizations they are supposed to be helping. "

You just described 90% of our educational system, and 75% of being a teenager.

11/7/2008 11:20:25 PM

^^if the kids don't want to do community service, they can pay their way through college. they aren't being forced to.

i certainly would have rather of done community service instead of waiting tables to get through college.

[Edited on November 7, 2008 at 11:21 PM. Reason : ]

11/7/2008 11:20:56 PM

Why the pussyfoot plan?

I think EVERY able bodied America should be required to give 2 YEARS of civic service after high school.

2 Years either in a military branch, or in any of the dozens of civic organizations (Americore, Peace Core, Job Corps, et al). There are quite a few European countries that require service. At worst, it teaches kids the BASICS of time management, some good life skills, interaction with people outside of their own class/race/gender/culture/region. At best, it gives kids who fall through the cracks a chance and could affect thousands of lives for the better.

----------

You guys are being retarded about this. Fuck, if he implements the plan I think it should retroactive. And I would gladly do it. There are SO many organizations that could make good use of this kind of volunteer work, and the whole "who wants someone who doesn't want to be there" mentality is exactly why we need this as a nation. People have completely forgotten about a sense of duty toward community and their fellow man.

To the OP:

Quote :

"Is anyone else disturbed by this? For one, it is completely antithetical to the principles this country was founded upon. Secondly, community service, when mandated, will not produce the same altruistic effect as voluntary community service. If students are forced to do something without pay, the obvious outcome will be for most to half-ass their service and be resentful of the benefactors. Lastly, when we are having trouble as it is convincing students to not drop out of school, how will adding one more, significant hurdle help? For those in high school who must work part-time to help with family bills, does this not increase the likelihood they will drop out to maintain that income?"

This is not at all antithetical to the founding principles. Community service when not mandated (reality of today) is that almost no one does ANYTHING. More service in any regard would have nothing but a net positive effect. Let them half-ass it, and be resentful. Better them be resentful with a shovel in their hands, than being resentful at home on MySpace.com.

For the drop-out argument, see the beginning of my post. I do agree that this should be extended to a longer term, PAID commitment. It would have exactly the opposite effect you posit. But even with the proposal you called out, 2 hours a week will not break the bank. And I'd bet there would be exclusions for kids under financial hardship that meet the time requirements by working a regular job.

11/7/2008 11:28:46 PM

Quote :

"without reading much about it, my initial reaction is that this is not only OK, but a GOOD (emphasis added) idea--AS LONG AS it's only for people getting federal tuition money (which shouldn't be happening to begin with, but I digress)."

[Edited on November 7, 2008 at 11:30 PM. Reason : .]

11/7/2008 11:30:28 PM

What's the problem? This is entirely consistent with Obama's other ideas. He doesn't apparently believe in private charity, he thinks it should be forced through a more "fair" tax plan... essentially he is forcing charity. It is only natural that he should also force community service through this involuntary volunteering. I wonder what activities will be deemed "community service". If I play the organ at my church does that count? What if I DJ an environmentalist rally? What if I spend my time registering people to vote? Just curious how we are going to decide what activities are acceptable. What activities will be sanctioned as work for the party?

I'm all for people serving in actual full-time jobs for a year or two as repayment for government assistance in college. But, it needs to be something that doesn't have this mad room for abuse. For example, doctors sometimes make a deal that they have to serve a few years in some God-forsaken place as repayment for their sizable med-school bills.

11/7/2008 11:30:39 PM

I guess it's either this or the old plan where people work for five years in an inner city school to knock off their Stafford loans.

11/7/2008 11:40:21 PM

Quote :

"20-30 hours a semester is ~2 hrs a week. 100 hours a year is ~2 hrs a week."

I was thinking of a "year" as being two semesters, not a full blown year, since we're talking about college... which would be 50/semester vs 20-30/semester, or 100/"year" vs 40-60/"year".

11/8/2008 1:43:04 AM

^ Yeah, the only way that A Tanzarian's post holds any water is if the student takes summer classes, but 50 community service hours in a summer session would suck ass.

11/8/2008 2:42:05 AM

Quote :

"You just described 90% of our educational system, and 75% of being a teenager."

Yep. Middle and High School are pretty much nothing but being forced to do shit you don't want to do while wasting the time of everyone involved. The difference is that taxpayers actually have to pay for middle and high school.

I'd drop the middle school requirement and make the high school section part of the prerequisite to get college money, but overall I don't have a huge problem with the plan as it exists. The issues I have with it would, I think, likely be offset by the benefits, some of which aren't immediately as clear. Kids who would otherwise have several hours without supervision are kept busy doing something constructive -- even if it is for a short while and even if "being constructive" means "not doing drugs and playing Halo." And I think it would provide at least a slight bump in kids' overall outlook on life and charity. And it does all of this while costing relatively little compared to many other far less effective government programs with the same goal. What do you need, basically? Some form to document the volunteer hours and a means of logging them.

11/8/2008 3:12:28 AM

Updated text:

Quote :

"Obama will call on citizens of all ages to serve America, by setting a goal that all middle school and high school students do 50 hours of community service a year and by developing a plan so that all college students who conduct 100 hours of community service receive a universal and fully refundable tax credit ensuring that the first $4,000 of their college education is completely free."

[Edited on November 8, 2008 at 10:17 AM. Reason : ]

11/8/2008 10:17:05 AM

Quote :

"What do you need, basically? Some form to document the volunteer hours and a means of logging them."

And someone to audit the whole system, and a committee to determine what qualifies as community service for the purposes of this system. Never mind that since it appears this is going to be credited in the form of a tax refund, a system to ensure that its only going to students. Plus an appeals system.

Don't get me wrong, I don't mind the idea of a "do community service, get a cheap loan", but remember that this is a government program, and will therefore require more resources and money than you would expect.

11/8/2008 10:28:43 AM

^^The original statement on Obama's change.gov used the word "require." This is also confirmed by Harvard Econonomist, Greg Mankiw, on his blog:

Quote :

"Update: The presidential transition website to which I linked above no longer uses the word "require." The passage quoted above was copied and pasted from that website (with bolding added by me). But within a few hours after I posted it here, the wording changed to "setting a goal.""

http://gregmankiw.blogspot.com/

I am not against the idea of requiring service for those who accept federal money for higher education, but Obama's plan (before he changed the wording) was to require that ALL middle and high school children be forced into service, even if they aren't benefactors of federal loans/scholarships.

11/8/2008 12:20:29 PM

Quote :

"Updated text:"

11/8/2008 12:21:37 PM

Quote :

"students are forced to do something without pay"

Well since the current wording makes it clear that that's not what this is at all what the plan would do... I don't see what the complaint is. This whole thread seems like people arguing over a strawman.

^^Yes, so the clarification made to the language of the site makes it obvious that this is nothing like a draft. This thread is like talking about why we shouldn't adopt the articles of confederation. Or complaining about the lack of TCP/IP support in the launch version of Windows 95.

[Edited on November 8, 2008 at 12:35 PM. Reason : ]

11/8/2008 12:31:32 PM

Seeing as the majority of this thread occured before the changes were known, I don't think it's arguing over a strawman, nor is it comparable to the other things you mentioned. This thread is occuring as the situation evolves.

I also disagree with your use of 'clarification'. The new statement has a completely different meaning from the original. It has been revised, not clarified.

For me at least, the revision raises the question of "Why?" Was it revised to reflect Obama's actual thinking? Or was it revised in response to complaint (i.e. "polls")?

11/8/2008 12:45:39 PM

Quote :

"And someone to audit the whole system, and a committee to determine what qualifies as community service for the purposes of this system. Never mind that since it appears this is going to be credited in the form of a tax refund, a system to ensure that its only going to students. Plus an appeals system."

In middle and high schools it sounds like guidance counselors could handle just about everything except handle the tax part, which of course wouldn't apply at that level. In college I think you could leave decisions on how to handle the details up to individual schools. Some would end up with different standards than others, but there are certainly abundant opportunities.

11/8/2008 2:36:26 PM

Quote :

"If it's only for people receiving federal aid for tuition, I actually don't see that much of a problem with it."

Right. Wouldn't this actually fit in with the conservative idea that you should work for the things you receive and not just ask for handouts?

11/8/2008 3:48:33 PM

considering that the money I earn which is subsequently stolen from me subsidizes these little douches education.



ha

11/8/2008 6:33:33 PM

http://change.gov/americaserves/

The original link since nobody seems to have posted it yet. I also thought it was funny that my friend pointed out that the country's second black president would want to enact something that was in questionable standing with the 13th amendment.

11/8/2008 7:27:26 PM

^Thanks for that.

Also, with regards to the college tuition one, it seems like more of an opt-in program to receive benefits, which isn't really questionable, constitution-wise.

I don't like the idea of requiring it from middle/high school students, though.

11/8/2008 7:31:53 PM

I had to do 100 hours of community service to graduate high school. It was a joke.

11/8/2008 8:18:46 PM

Your parents work to pay into the education system, but then you have to do involuntary work to get that money to pay for college, so you can get a skilled job that will pay more into the education system, while your kids do more involuntary work to get the money to pay for their some of their college education, so they can get a skilled job that will pay back into the tax system, and so on and so forth... thus the circle of life death & taxes.

11/8/2008 11:12:22 PM

^Opt-in systems for receiving large amounts of federal aid are not what I would call involuntary service.

11/8/2008 11:18:40 PM

If they were to ever implement such a system, it should be for everybody, not just those requesting aid and scholarships.

I think Noen mentioned the idea of kids having to serve the country for a mandatory two years. I'm totally on board with that. Maybe one year as a compromise or some shit. And, of course, it should be paid.

To be honest, I just can't see any bad coming of that. What's bad about kids helping out, gaining some experience, and making some money?

11/8/2008 11:22:55 PM

Quote :

"If they were to ever implement such a system, it should be for everybody, not just those requesting aid and scholarships."

What do you mean by this? I think the idea is that if someone performs the required community service, then it results in them receiving financial aid or scholarships. It doesn't seem to come with the stipulation of the kid in question coming from a lower income bracket...

Unless by "everybody", you mean "not just upcoming college students"... well, I agree with you in principle, but the simple fact is that there's only so much money in the government and it's already massively overspending. Opening this program to everyone would essentially result in the creation of a lot of new government employees, all of whom would be paid for a service that is questionably necessary, with work being done by people who are questionably motivated and many of whom would be questionably competent. It would also require the hiring of plenty of officials to do oversight on the level of service done by individuals. I'd absolutely LOVE it if the system were able to throw some money towards anyone who wants to help out, but it doesn't seam economically feasible to open this system to anyone but students.

11/8/2008 11:55:09 PM

^I'm not sure where the confusion is here. After you complete high school or on your eighteenth birthday, you would be required to enter volunteer service for your country for one to two years. In exchange, you would get the opportunity to serve and respect your country, some experience/skills, and three to six thousand dollars to begin your adult life.

[Edited on November 9, 2008 at 12:34 AM. Reason : ?]

11/9/2008 12:32:05 AM