Well all know the predicament here, what do you think should be done to improve/fix the US auto industry?

I'll start:

In my opinion they will never be able to compete on a world market with their ridiculously cost prohibitive UNIONS. They cannot survive with that monkey on their back. The government needs to step in and help them right now (yes I can't believe I'm saying it) as well as help with the dissolution of the auto unions. These union workers need to understand that its better to have a job out of a union than be in a union with no job at all.

11/10/2008 7:21:31 PM

Fuck that.

I completely agree that the largest cause is the unions.

But government intervention will only help the unions, it will not solve the problem.

IMHO this is a historic opportunity to put the auto unions out of commission in the US. Let the automakers file for bankruptcy and have their assets bought by other groups. The UAW will cease to exist. Plain and simple.

Ford will be fine, because the will remain a foreign manufacturer, they'll just bankrupt the US segment of their business. Same with GM. Let the unions dissolve, and they can both slowly rework their way back into the US the right way, like Toyota, Subaru and Honda have.

11/10/2008 8:31:58 PM

^

[/thread]

11/10/2008 8:42:14 PM

Quote :

" Ford will be fine, because the will remain a foreign manufacturer, they'll just bankrupt the US segment of their business."

How would this work?

11/10/2008 9:18:32 PM

remember, this is not a bailout of the automobile manufacturers, it's a bailout of the labor unions. If it wasn't for the UAW, no one in congress would be trying to bail them out. as a clarifier, I do not support this bailout or any of the previous ones.

11/10/2008 9:24:08 PM

Ford and GM's problems extend way past the unions. Wasteful/inefficient vehicles the market no longer demands, problems with quality and reliability and uninspiring design. If they didn't have nearly all local, state and federal government fleet contracts (and other considerable government subsidies) they would have folded years ago.

11/10/2008 9:25:09 PM

that's true, but without the political clout of the unions it wouldn't happen.

11/10/2008 9:26:46 PM

The UAW contributions to the Democrats paled in comparison to what Obama raised on his own. This won't be a bailout of the union.

11/10/2008 9:33:22 PM

I'd like to modify my opening statement. I fully agree with what Noen said.

11/10/2008 10:10:33 PM

This kind of ties in with the attacks on U.S. companies that go off-shore. These companies would probably prefer to stay in the U.S. - but the gov't climate makes their situations too difficult to remain.

The gov't chases them off with brutal tax policies, over-regulation, and Union support. And then accuses them of being unpatriotic when they flee for friendlier shores.

11/10/2008 11:18:37 PM

the final solution to the union question is to allow the big three to shit can the unions

11/10/2008 11:19:08 PM

So far it seems that everyone agrees with Noen. Nice work.

11/10/2008 11:20:52 PM

Unions are a major problem but hardly the only one. Ross Perot hardly placed all the blame for GM's performance on unions -- he had major problems with the executive ranks. I am moreover sure even Lee Iaccoca had to deal with unions during his tenure.

Highly recommended reading:

http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/1988/02/15/70199/index.htm

Ross Perot's famous interview, "THE GM SYSTEM IS LIKE A BLANKET OF FOG." Read it and ask yourself whether the system has changed in the years since he left.

Ford is indeed a good prototype for whether American automotives can be saved. Alan Mulally is a smart guy with a great track record. We'll see.

11/11/2008 2:54:38 AM

Quote :

"Ford and GM's problems extend way past the unions. Wasteful/inefficient vehicles the market no longer demands, problems with quality and reliability and uninspiring design. If they didn't have nearly all local, state and federal government fleet contracts (and other considerable government subsidies) they would have folded years ago."

The vehicles don't have a damn thing to do with their problems. Government emissions standards have entirely BLOCKED US manufacturers from bringing small displacement diesel to the US for 20 years. The artificial lowering of gas prices (also very much fed involved) have created a vehicle sink since the late 80's, forcing manufacturers to compete on things other than gas mileage.

Look at every US manufacturer outside the US. They are doing damn well outside of our conuntry. What's the difference? No union labor, and much more reasonable emissions standards.

The problem for the past 2 decades has been that the UAW and other auto unions have bled the companies dry. From what I've heard (take this with a big grain of salt) as much as 25% of a workers total benefits+pay are sucked up by the UAW, if not more.

11/11/2008 3:38:11 AM

i honestly don't think the problem is unions. i think the problem is at the other end of the worker totem pole. and i think this applies to most American companies when i say don't blame it on the guys who are fighting for a fair wage to feed their families blame it on the guys who are grossly overpaid, made the decisions that screwed things up and are the only people who get paid when they are fired./rant sorry i work for circuit city goin thru some things right now.

[Edited on November 11, 2008 at 4:08 AM. Reason : .]

11/11/2008 4:07:58 AM

Quote :

"The vehicles don't have a damn thing to do with their problems. "

FINALLY someone with a brain!! Just because YOU don't care for the vehicles doesn't mean that's the problem. some people need vehicles that only american companies produce (work trucks). some people WANT cars only american companies produce (viper, vette: I know, small sample).

sales weren't that bad before this fall (now everyone's sales are bad) Toyota only caught up to GM in sales this year, it isn't as if they'd been beating them in sales for years.

It falls back to business models and profitability. GM at least sells enough cars, they just can't make enough money on them to stay afloat, primarily due to worker costs (unions)

11/11/2008 8:23:38 AM

American cars are of generally less quality than most foreign ones, right now. Especially GM's. That being said, they've come a long way, and Ford actually has some great models. So while I agree that the Unions are the biggest issue here, the big 3 have done themselves few favors with their product development over the past 30 years.

11/11/2008 9:29:28 AM

Wow. Came here to say this:

Quote :

"IMHO this is a historic opportunity to put the auto unions out of commission in the US. Let the automakers file for bankruptcy and have their assets bought by other groups. The UAW will cease to exist. Plain and simple."

but in a much more incoherent fashion.

11/11/2008 9:32:48 AM

Quote :

"Fuck that. I completely agree that the largest cause is the unions. But government intervention will only help the unions, it will not solve the problem. IMHO this is a historic opportunity to put the auto unions out of commission in the US. Let the automakers file for bankruptcy and have their assets bought by other groups. The UAW will cease to exist. Plain and simple. "

I agree with noen and many on here. They need to get out of thier union contracts and reorganize to compete in a global market. However, I dont think the dems will allow this, they are very pro union.

11/11/2008 9:32:48 AM

well, in all honesty the number of cars you sell isn't all there is to the issue. sure they sell a lot of product but they aren't making a lot of money because they have to sell them so cheaply in the US to make them an appealing alternative to the other foreign manufactures. I could sell a whole lot of products but if i'm selling them barely above cost then despite the revenue that I may obtain I will not have earned a lot of profit. lack of a product of comparable quality is part of why they are failing. their cars are made poorly and do not have a reputation for lasting long.

about eight years ago Honda or toyota came out with a mini van that had a left sliding door. small change but amazing for purchases. GM came out and said it would be around 5 years or so before they could implement the same design. it shouldn't take that long. this type of inability to change is what is keeping their competitive capabilities diminished and is a contributing factor to why their products must be sold at a cheaper price in order to compete.

i'm not saying unions don't have any affect, but to deny that their product has a role in it is disingenuous.

11/11/2008 9:38:05 AM

Quote :

"i say don't blame it on the guys who are fighting for a fair wage to feed their families blame it on the guys who are grossly overpaid"

Those would be members of the UAW. Union shops have grossly inflated wages for everyone, even the guy cleaning the shitter. I recall an interview where they were talking to a forklift operator at a GM planet a while back that was worried about having to take a huge pay cut if he was forced to do teh same job else where. (was making ~50/hour as a UAW forklift operator in an auto plant, compared to the 13/hour national average for the job)

11/11/2008 9:40:07 AM

GM is by all accounts a train wreck of a corporation. A bloated corporate beuracrcy where no indivdual has true ownership over any segment of design or production. Moreover, they were consistently incapable of making tough choices.

For example, people I talk to argue should shed every brand except Cadillac and Chevy years ago, but no one was willing to take the hit on the dealer network. They would have had to buyout the dealers in brands they were canceling.

I think the result of their design by committee process speaks for itself.

11/11/2008 9:46:10 AM

http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2008/11/let-gm-fail.html



So no one here thinks we should tax the $28 crowd to bail out the $73 crowd?

[Edited on November 11, 2008 at 9:55 AM. Reason : .,.]

11/11/2008 9:54:15 AM

that seems like a terribly misleading graph....

11/11/2008 10:05:46 AM

I have not delved into the data myself, but if you can find where it goes wrong feel free:
http://chryslerlabortalks07.com/Economic_Data.rtf

Quote :

"In 2006, the most recent year of data, it shows cash wages per hour worked at $29.15 and total comp at $75.86. So, while cash wages per hour have increased about 4.25% compounded each year, total compensation has increased more than twice as fast, at 9.7% a year. That latter increase is due both to a rapid rise in health care expenditures for employees as well as an increase in paid days off to 34.5 a year."

11/11/2008 10:14:40 AM

The big 3 are paying out their ass on ridiculous pension agreements they made back in the 80's and 90's. Remember that deal where they were offering workers 6 figures just to quit? That exemplifies the clout of UAW that Ford and GM can't even lay off workers without giving them all golden parachutes.

A restructuring of GM is long overdue. They are too big, too dumb and too slow to compete. Let them file for bankruptcy, break apart into separate brands not under the GM umbrella, and then see if those parts can once again provide a great product.

Too bad that will never happen with this congrss.

To summarize, I agree with Noen. But I really hope he's wrong about the Volt. That could end up being a pretty innovative car from GM.

[Edited on November 11, 2008 at 10:30 AM. Reason : 2]

11/11/2008 10:26:40 AM

how about we adopt the work ethic of the Japaneses.

11/11/2008 11:06:16 AM

Quote :

"They are too big, too dumb and too slow to compete."

11/11/2008 11:30:36 AM

Quote :

"But I really hope he's wrong about the Volt. That could end up being a pretty innovative car from GM."

Considering they won't even start on production of it until Q3 2010 at the earliest, I'd be shocked if they ever released it.

11/11/2008 11:56:58 AM

Wait, what? Of course they are gonna release it.

You do realize that companies can continue to operate under bankruptcy protection, right? And besides, this bailout is all but inevitable with a heavily democratic congress and a President from the midwest.

[Edited on November 11, 2008 at 12:34 PM. Reason : 2]

11/11/2008 12:33:08 PM

And they're going to be investing huge sums of money into this new line while under bankruptcy protection?

To be revolutionary, you need to have capital behind you, have forward-thinking management, and a dash of hype. They have a little of hype for the Volt, but nothing else to support it. We're not talking about supporting current operations, but sinking huge amounts of money into a type of car that they just don't have the experience making.

I, as well, would not be surprised if no Chevy Volt ever saw an ordinary dealership.

11/11/2008 12:46:49 PM

Quote :

"American cars are of generally less quality than most foreign ones, right now. Especially GM's. That being said, they've come a long way, and Ford actually has some great models"

GM has done pretty well in the last 5 yrs or so with Initial Quality rating (JD Power). Buick is always near the top as a brand and the Malibu was the top rated mid-sized car for 2008. While some of their cars do still blow, most of the ones released within the last 3-4 years are pretty solid and not what comes to mind.

11/11/2008 12:50:08 PM

^^You are forgetting who just got elected President. Obama will make sure that the Volt gets produced because it fits in with his "Green Boom" energy platform.

The Volt has already been designed. It was unveiled a few months ago. It is way past the concept stage; they rolled out the production version. That was the hard part. Production is all but a foregone conclusion since the car has already been designed and engineered.

[Edited on November 11, 2008 at 12:54 PM. Reason : 2]

11/11/2008 12:53:46 PM

I know this goes against things I've said before in other threads, but I didn't realize GM wasn't planning on releasing the Volt until fall TWO YEARS from now. Thats ridiculous. If (when) they get some cash from the gov't they better fucking throw the hammer down and get that car on the market, and $40k? Unfucking believeable.

Honda's coming out with a Pruis clone (new Insight) in April '09 that will get gas mileage in the 50s for less than $20k.

Sigh.

11/11/2008 1:06:38 PM

None of the major automakers besides GM are making a car that will be able to get 40 miles on a single charge. That kind of range comes at a cost. The battery pack adds a premium of something like 12K to the car.

When converting electric energy to that of gasoline, the effective gas mileage is over 100 mpg. And the car is bigger and nicer on the inside than the new insight. It's competing for a different market.

[Edited on November 11, 2008 at 1:15 PM. Reason : 2]

11/11/2008 1:11:01 PM

a Deutsche Bank analyst set a share-price estimate of zero -- arguing the automaker did not have enough cash to last the year.

11/11/2008 1:39:52 PM

Quote :

"this bailout is all but inevitable with a heavily democratic congress and a President from the midwest"

yep, and today obama has urged action from DC to help the automakers.

11/11/2008 1:58:04 PM

At times like these I wonder if GM might be purposefully making its own situation worse in hopes of convincing the government they have no choice but to bail it out because if the situation was less dire then congress might say "its in your power to fix it, so fix it."

11/11/2008 2:09:00 PM

Quote :

"American cars are of generally less quality than most foreign ones, right now. Especially GM's. That being said, they've come a long way, and Ford actually has some great models. So while I agree that the Unions are the biggest issue here, the big 3 have done themselves few favors with their product development over the past 30 years."

Completely wrong. There is essentially parity in quality among the top 10-12 manufacturers in the world today. All this "amurican cars are crap" is completely bogus. The quality differences today vary from model to model, not manufacturer to manufacturer.

Quote :

"GM is by all accounts a train wreck of a corporation. A bloated corporate beuracrcy where no indivdual has true ownership over any segment of design or production. Moreover, they were consistently incapable of making tough choices."

It has very little to do with corporate bloat (speaking purely in terms of their profitability). You are right that they were incapable of making tough choices. As in they COULD NOT (and cannot) make the choices that would make them profitable again. They cannot drop union labor without complete bankruptcy. They cannot abandon or even significantly shift their distribution model without complete bankruptcy. This is due to a number of federal and state restrictions designed to protect the workers and the satellite companies that rely on the big3. It also doesn't help that because of those issues, the big 3 have slowly dug themselves a hole going further and further from the ability to implement radical change.

----------

Quote :

" Considering they won't even start on production of it until Q3 2010 at the earliest, I'd be shocked if they ever released it."

The Volt will hit the market. 100% guaranteed. It may not be called the Volt and it may not be under a Chevy badge, but it will be sold. As an investor, technology and a platform like that is WORTH purchasing. Between the Volt, Corvette, Silverado, and Chevy's industrial/commercial vehicles, it's a pretty awesome investment if/when they do tank.

-----------

Quote :

"At times like these I wonder if GM might be purposefully making its own situation worse in hopes of convincing the government they have no choice but to bail it out because if the situation was less dire then congress might say "its in your power to fix it, so fix it.""

They have been. They've been playing the same game that the airlines, trains, and investment banks played. It's sickening, and unfortunately it works. Got to love special interest.

[Edited on November 11, 2008 at 2:12 PM. Reason : .]

11/11/2008 2:10:59 PM

you mention trains. i read a book that says that AMTRAK has never posted a profit. If true that seems ridiculous.

11/11/2008 2:25:54 PM

^^ let me re-state - by saying "poor quality", i was speaking in broader terms than just their reliability, i'm referring to product selection as well. GM is in the shitter partially because no one wants their cars. they have not done a good job matching their cars to what customers are looking for, and have lost massive amounts of market share to imports over the past 30 years. which results in them having to offer much steeper discounts/rebates just to move their cars off the lot, and the re-sale values of GM cars are some of the lowest.

11/11/2008 2:33:11 PM

^^Who's referred to trains in this thread? And yeah I'm pretty sure AMTRAK has never posted a profit. Cargo trains on the other hand....

Also, Noen you mentioned Ford would be fine b/c of their European Division. What about GM? They have several brands in Europe, as well as another in Australia (as does Ford).

11/11/2008 3:00:13 PM

Quote :

"The Volt will hit the market. 100% guaranteed. It may not be called the Volt and it may not be under a Chevy badge, but it will be sold. As an investor, technology and a platform like that is WORTH purchasing. Between the Volt, Corvette, Silverado, and Chevy's industrial/commercial vehicles, it's a pretty awesome investment if/when they do tank."

Huh? How is this an asset to investors?

If the car is going to come out under a different name, different manufacturer, and whatnot (if it does come out), then what is the current plan worth? Is that entire value just a design? This was supposed to be THE AMERICAN ELECTRIC CAR, and that might be worth a darn, but if it's a Toyota or a Tata Motors car, then that doesn't even make any sense!

I agree that the Volt targets a special market that very much DOES exist right now. Heck, if I was rich just rather well off, I would love to be parading around in an electric car right about now. But for crying out loud, what is special about the Chevy Volt? Why can't other fully electric cars come to the market by then? Why can't Toyota just make something better? Why would we expect such a good product from the company in the worst position to deliver it?

11/11/2008 3:22:31 PM

The Volt features a completely new drivetrain system, a series hybrid powered completely by an electric motor, but with a range-extending generator built in. It was designed and engineered from the ground up with this drivetrain in mind, and GM has invested billions into it's development.

No other automaker is even working on anything similar. And guess what? Toyota is going through some of the same pains that GM is, albeit on a lesser scale. they don't have the money to invest in this kind of technology right now, and they are too late in the game to get a competitor out there against the Volt. The development cycle for new cars is several years, so if they tried to develop a competitor to the Volt now it wouldn't hit the market until 2013 or so. They are going to start offering plug-in Priuses eventually, but those will have an electric-only range of just 12 miles or so.

There are no guarantees in the market, but given consumers' strong desire for this type of product and the time and money GM has spent on it, it looks like it will be a winner when it hits. GM has said that the Volt along with another car, the Cruze, will be spared from any budget cuts they make in order to get by.

[Edited on November 11, 2008 at 3:58 PM. Reason : 2]

11/11/2008 3:54:09 PM

TKE, this is what i was referring to

Quote :

"They've been playing the same game that the airlines, trains, and investment banks played."

11/11/2008 3:57:18 PM

Quote :

"^^ let me re-state - by saying "poor quality", i was speaking in broader terms than just their reliability, i'm referring to product selection as well. GM is in the shitter partially because no one wants their cars. they have not done a good job matching their cars to what customers are looking for, and have lost massive amounts of market share to imports over the past 30 years. which results in them having to offer much steeper discounts/rebates just to move their cars off the lot, and the re-sale values of GM cars are some of the lowest. "

Let me restate again, this just is not true. GM and Ford have sold well across damn near all of their brand lines for the past 10 years. The US auto industry rebounded well after the early 90's. They haven't lost "massive amounts of market share" in the past 10 years, the market has balanced out. It makes sense that their market share would dip in the US as more competition came in. But their market share has expanded tremendously outside of the US, because of just the opposite effect.

Those steep discounts are because of a shitty economy and a failing company, not because of a shitt product. Resale values of GM and Ford vehicles are about the same proportionally as every other manufacturer if you look at TCO versus purchase price and volume of sales.

11/11/2008 3:59:46 PM

Quote :

"Huh? How is this an asset to investors? If the car is going to come out under a different name, different manufacturer, and whatnot (if it does come out), then what is the current plan worth? Is that entire value just a design? This was supposed to be THE AMERICAN ELECTRIC CAR, and that might be worth a darn, but if it's a Toyota or a Tata Motors car, then that doesn't even make any sense! "

Very simple economics. Take a product (A) that has (X) amount of money poured into it's development. There is no direct competition to this product (A). Now the company fails, and you can purchase the rights to (A) for 10% of (X). You just got a 90% discount on R&D, and your time to market is 18 months instead of 7 years.

And all you fucking retards talking about "it shouldn't take 3-5 years to bring a car to market" dont have a shit's clue in hell how difficult and expensive it is to bring a derivative vehicle to market, much less a brand new platform. One of the BIG reasons platform sharing began in the first place was to cut time to market down to 3 years.

11/11/2008 4:02:55 PM

How would we go about organizing a protest, similar to the NO on Prop 8 crowd, around this issue?

Would something like this be viable?

11/11/2008 8:50:16 PM

I don't think the Big 3 have any plants in NC. Though one (or many) of their supplies may.

11/11/2008 9:21:06 PM

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11/11/2008 9:40:11 PM