Quote :

"N.C. taxman might watch odometers Mark Johnson, Staff Writer Comment on this story Imagine your car's odometer as a taxicab meter. A special transportation committee on Wednesday approved a package of money-raising proposals, including a tax on North Carolina car owners based on the number of miles their vehicle travels each year. The 21st Century Transportation Committee also recommended that state lawmakers consider putting tollbooths on Interstates 95 and 77. The panel, made up of lawmakers and nonlegislators, will hold a final vote on the recommendations Dec. 10 before sending them to the legislature as a menu of possibilities. The tax on vehicle miles would be collected during the car's annual inspection and could replace or supplement the current gas tax. The gas tax has produced less money than in the past because of better fuel efficiency, a cap on the tax and, more recently, declining gas prices. Lawmakers on the committee, however, immediately low-balled the chances that the legislature would embrace many of the recommendations. "Probably many of them won't be viable this session because of the economy," said Sen. Richard Stevens, a Raleigh Republican. The committee is charged with finding new ways to pay for the state's growing road and transit needs as the population mushrooms and current revenue sources plateau or drop. North Carolina maintains more miles of roads than any state except Texas, because the Tar Heel state does not require counties to pay for roadwork. And North Carolina cities are reaching the size at which officials are building or contemplating light rail systems. The vehicle miles tax likely would likely spur the most contentious debate, as it would charge car and truck owners based on their odometer readings at annual inspections. "It's going to take a real learning curve for the general public," said Rep. Becky Carney, a Charlotte Democrat, "and the General Assembly." Committee leaders offered an example of a tax of a quarter cent or a half cent per mile. For 10,000 miles of travel, that would cost a car owner $25 or $50, respectively. Cars average about 12,000 miles per year, according to federal data. Other proposals included raising the highway use tax charged on car sales and increasing registration fees, tolls and bonds. Carney cautioned that if toll roads are approved, they should be considered for all interstate highways. mjohnson@charlotteobserver.com or 919-829-4774 "

11/20/2008 11:05:28 AM

Quote :

"The gas tax has produced less money than in the past because of better fuel efficiency"

That's the whole beauty of taxing gas as opposed to mileage, it encourages fuel efficient cars.

aslo, if you think about it, cars with a better gas mileage tend to have less impact on the pavement (think dump trucks and sports cars vs toyora corollas)

11/20/2008 11:17:28 AM

^

11/20/2008 11:27:48 AM

if the do tax mileage it should be a function of mileage and curb weight

[Edited on November 20, 2008 at 11:35 AM. Reason : .]

11/20/2008 11:35:00 AM

sounds like ima disconnect my odometer

11/20/2008 3:19:17 PM

SC rocks. No inspections, less gas tax, car sales tax capped at $300. Property taxes are higher, but they are deductible.

11/20/2008 3:19:40 PM

Two of my cars have broken odometers. I don't suppose they plan to fix them for me.

11/20/2008 3:43:50 PM

NC needs to get off our nuts

Uber high gas tax and now this

and then they usually rape the highway fund for some other ghey crap anyways

11/20/2008 4:35:54 PM

^^No, instead your car won't pass inspection and won't be legal.

11/20/2008 4:41:51 PM

or you can disconnect it and reconnect it after only a couple hundred miles, such that it still works when you go in for inspection.

Or like in my 944... Occassionally, the gear for the motor that rolls the odometer gets stuck. I have to take the cluster out and spin the gear with my finger and apply a little bit of gear grease on it and it'll work usually for another 800-1000 miles before getting stuck again... Yea, I don't drive my porsche around much, just on weekends when it's not raining and it's above 70*...

11/20/2008 4:54:44 PM

^^ I'll just take out the odometer and roll it forward a couple thousand miles by hand drill then. It only takes about 20 minutes to do.

11/20/2008 5:23:11 PM

what bout those electric odometers?

11/20/2008 5:32:29 PM

Quote :

"^^No, instead your car won't pass inspection and won't be legal. "

that or he will have to pay $200 for a waiver from the state

11/20/2008 5:52:36 PM

Mitts off my I-77

11/20/2008 8:10:21 PM

it is bullshit that they want to place tolls on roads that have already been constructed and paid

of course, they want to get some monies from the people passing through

11/20/2008 9:29:40 PM

Thank God I'm leaving this shitty state in January.

11/20/2008 9:39:06 PM

^^boy it sure is a good thing roads have an indefinite life span and never need maintaining

11/20/2008 11:13:16 PM

ok then, lets toll every single road

i dont want to see you leave your driveway without dispensing some monies

11/20/2008 11:20:44 PM

Quote :

"also, if you think about it, cars with a better gas mileage tend to have less impact on the pavement (think dump trucks and sports cars vs toyora corollas)"

The wha?? Yes, of course cars that are lighter than most tend to impact the road more....?

To hell with this crap. If this shit gets out of hand I'm gonna register my cars in SC (b/c that's where my parents will be living if something like this gets started)

11/20/2008 11:38:12 PM

what are they gonna when people are all like "fuck this" and start riding their bicycles?

11/21/2008 12:38:31 AM

Quote :

"The wha?? Yes, of course cars that are lighter than most tend to impact the road more....?"

Crest Rd says YES THEY DO



all them horsepoWerz gots to go somewhere

11/21/2008 7:06:45 AM

Quote :

"ok then, lets toll every single road i dont want to see you leave your driveway without dispensing some monies"

pretty much the definition of an odometer tax

11/21/2008 7:27:49 AM

no not really

you cant guarantee that all the miles between the two points are in NC

with a toll booth on every road, you are sure that you are taxing usage for that particular road

11/21/2008 7:34:09 AM

good point

11/21/2008 8:07:59 AM

What kills me is the money generated on I-77 near Charlotte would be going to the other half of the state...like always.

11/21/2008 8:29:43 AM

Would they also use a GPS system to credit where you ride on the odometer tax? The roads cost far more to maintain in urban areas. I drive 60 miles a day, but its all on little rural two lane roads. I don't think I should have to pay as much as somebody driving that much down 540 and 40.

11/21/2008 10:03:18 AM

What they should do, instead of spending money on new systems, jobs and infrastructure to tax us, is figure out a way to do more with the buckets of money they are already getting from gasoline taxes. All of these programs will cost a crap ton of money to implement, and will create more six figure government jobs that will be handed out to cronies. There is so much fat and misuse floating around our state government already...

11/21/2008 10:12:15 AM

hate to say it, but since we have one of the highest gasoline taxes already, something has got them thinking that there is another way to squeeze more money out of people in this state..


could it be an influx of new citizens, coming from states where the cost of living is WAYY higher, and toll roads have been the norm for decades????

11/21/2008 10:42:20 AM

This is rediculous recockulous! What if you drove to CA or WA? most of the miles are outside of NC roads, yet you pay them to use other's roads? Bullpuckey!

11/21/2008 2:17:24 PM

odometer tax eh?

better take off the gas tax then.

11/21/2008 5:11:39 PM

shit for the half cent plan I'd pay around $275 a year

11/21/2008 6:13:06 PM

It would be great if one of you knuckleheads would at least attempt to be informed about this stuff before you commented. Let's get a few things clear first

1) This is just a committee commissioned by lawmakers to try and come up with new ways to extract tax monies to pay for infrastructure. These aren't proposed laws, simply ideas. There was probably even some mechanism by which private individuals could submit ideas to this committee, maybe not.
2) Right there in the frikkin article:

Quote :

"Lawmakers on the committee, however, immediately low-balled the chances that the legislature would embrace many of the recommendations. "Probably many of them won't be viable this session because of the economy," said Sen. Richard Stevens, a Raleigh Republican."

So, you can put the hate pipe down as none if this will come to pass soon.

Quote :

"That's the whole beauty of taxing gas as opposed to mileage, it encourages fuel efficient cars."

NC's gas tax isn't progressive enough (even without the cap) isn't progressive enough to put a dent in demand. The high prices of gas by itself does a much better job at demand destruction and the motivation to switch to more fuel efficient vehicles.

Quote :

"if the do tax mileage it should be a function of mileage and curb weight "

It isn't mentioned in this half ass article by Mark Johnson, but some other info I saw about the odometer tax has this facet included

and

Quote :

"Would they also use a GPS system to credit where you ride on the odometer tax?"

Mark also left out that this is in fact part of a study that the committee is examining. That is, I think NC is part of a 6 State study that will include GPS to track the where the miles are driven and taxes/fees will be paid with hypothetical tax rates. I'm not sure at this point how the tax will be levied and if out of staters will have to pay tax/tolls to other states. Using GPS brings up a whole host of privacy issues, but it still makes sense to carry out a study and hope that the privacy issues are addressed through some other mechanism in the future. If electronic voting machines are any lesson teacher, it's that some "new" electronic tool for the government will fail disastrously in it's first iterations.

Quote :

"What kills me is the money generated on I-77 near Charlotte would be going to the other half of the state...like always."

The other half being I-485? The Charlotte area roads comprise half of the state roads?

Quote :

"The roads cost far more to maintain in urban areas. I drive 60 miles a day, but its all on little rural two lane roads. I don't think I should have to pay as much as somebody driving that much down 540 and 40."

I don't quite understand how you think your impact is less? I suppose with GPS we really could get precise with where the miles are being driven and then leave it up to cities and towns (or perhaps counties) to fill in any funding gaps they have because less miles are being driven, that is, the utilization is WAY down compared to a highway, but this is a long way down the road (pun intended).

Quote :

"What they should do, instead of spending money on new systems, jobs and infrastructure to tax us, is figure out a way to do more with the buckets of money they are already getting from gasoline taxes. All of these programs will cost a crap ton of money to implement, and will create more six figure government jobs that will be handed out to cronies. There is so much fat and misuse floating around our state government already..."

This should be a priority, but I don't think you're going to find a politician anywhere that could run on this platform and get any traction (pun intended) with it.

Quote :

"hate to say it, but since we have one of the highest gasoline taxes already, something has got them thinking that there is another way to squeeze more money out of people in this state.."

The gas tax revenue shortfall will be 300 million this year and is expected to be that over the next three years as well. Clearly, as we go forward the gas price shocks are causing people to purchase more efficient vehicles. We still have to pay for the same roads. It isn't to get more money out of people, it is to get the same money that has been outlayed for new roads and maintenance of the old ones.

Quote :

"odometer tax eh? better take off the gas tax then."

This would happen.

11/21/2008 10:35:07 PM

good thing i own like 5 cars

11/22/2008 12:47:53 AM

^^What a crock of shit.

11/22/2008 10:52:58 AM

Quote :

"I don't quite understand how you think your impact is less?"

How isn't it? I drive on roads that are less utilized and travelled, hence needing less maintenance and far less costly to build. If its an environmental impact, then my 60 miles a day is far easier because there is almost no stop and go traffic and my speed is slower and more constant. I have only 5-7 stoplights on my commute and I drive early enough that I rarely get caught by any in the mornings. I am on highways for 25 miles at 55 mph speed limits, and spend maybe 5 miles in suburban traffic with 35 mph speed limits. Hence my impact on the road and environment is far smaller and my contribution in taxes should be lower than somebody doing 70-80 down 40 and facing stop and go traffic that increases their time in the car and on the road, even if they are turning the same number of miles on the odometer.

11/22/2008 11:52:31 AM

Man to hell with the DOT and their budget "shortfall". Right now they're repaving sections of I-40 between Raleigh and Durham. And I have no idea why, there's nothing wrong with the surface being torn up and replaced.

11/24/2008 3:13:11 PM

Another infuriating article, including the stupid title:

"Gasoline tax limit means $600M lost for NC"

Quote :

"By GARY D. ROBERTSON, Associated Press Writer Comment on this story RALEIGH, N.C. - When the Legislature capped North Carolina's gasoline tax in 2006, it gave politicians something to crow about at election time to show they cared about voters' pain at the pump. While motorists currently save about a nickel for each gallon they buy because of the cap, its loss for the state Transportation Department is much greater: $600 million. That's about how much less the department will have taken in cumulatively by the time the cap is scheduled to expire next June 30, compared to the amount that would have been collected had there been no cap, according to state estimates. The department and General Assembly researchers estimate more than half of that money would have been collected this fiscal year, when record gas prices combined with the state's variable gas tax formula would have brought in more than $400 million extra. Lawmakers returning to Raleigh in January must decide whether to let the cap expire or extend it and find money elsewhere to pay for road construction and repair. There's an estimated $65 billion gap between transportation revenues and needs in North Carolina through 2030, the Department of Transportation has said. "Politically to some it would be better not to touch" the cap, said Rep. Becky Carney, D-Mecklenburg, a member of a blue-ribbon transportation funding committee meeting last week. "But there's no money. We're going to have to find it somewhere and it's going to have to be in the form of a tax or fee." The extra money could have been used to reduce a road-building backlog that now stretches for decades. This year's uncollected money would have been enough to cover the $316 million shortfall now projected for the Highway Trust Fund and Highway Fund this fiscal year. The gasoline tax and a tax on car sales are the primary sources for the two dedicated building funds that receive nearly $3 billion annually. Both have fallen off because people are driving less and buying fewer vehicles. Salisbury attorney Bill Graham, who led a 2006 petition drive to lower the gasoline tax, said the uncollected taxes have meant more money in the wallets of working families and businesses reliant on fuel. The state's gasoline tax was among the highest in the country. "While the revenue was not generated, that also meant there was a savings to the general driving public at a time when some people are losing their jobs," said Graham, who ran unsuccessfully for the Republican nomination for governor this year. The state's gasoline tax is automatically adjusted twice annually based on the average wholesale price of a gallon. The adjustments, based on a six-month average for gas, were designed to keep the tax's value from eroding. Until recently, the material cost for building roads had doubled in price compared to 2003, said Mark Foster, the chief financial officer for the Department of Transportation. "The cap was intended to be a recovery of inflationary costs, so obviously we lost $400 million of opportunity to cover increases in fuel and construction materials," Foster said. The Legislature agreed to limit the tax to no more than 29.9 cents per gallon starting in mid-2006 after complaints when it rose by roughly 3 cents because gas prices had surged in the aftermath of Katrina and Hurricane Rita. Transportation advocates didn't like the idea. Gov. Mike Easley initially was cool to it but later signed a budget bill with the cap. Without the cap, the Legislature's Fiscal Research Division says the tax now would have been 34.8 cents per gallon and soared to 41 cents the first of next year. "I still believe that the cap on the gas tax was the right thing to do," Graham said. The sheer size of the lost revenue can't be overlooked. The $600 million exceeds the value of all road-building contracts approved by the Board of Transportation at monthly meetings from July through November. Replacing the aging, narrow Yadkin River Bridge along Interstate 85 could cost $400 million, Foster said. With the struggling economy forcing contractors to bid less to highway projects and recent lower oil prices reducing the cost of construction materials, the extra cash could have helped accelerate work. "We would've had the money in the bank to do these kind of things, and capitalize on the (bad) economy," said Rep. Nelson Cole, D-Rockingham, co-chairman of the Legislature's transportation oversight committee. "It would have multiplied our efforts considerably." The Legislature might let the cap expire in a non-election year. The public may forgive lawmakers, too, if gas prices are still at their current $2 per gallon. Graham said the cap should be extended and no new road revenue sources authorized until DOT and Gov.-elect Beverly Perdue makes the agency more efficient. Rep. Bill McGee, R-Forsyth, another blue-ribbon panel member, said voters would prefer to have a flat tax rate that doesn't change. But McGee acknowledged that fixing the gas tax won't change the larger problem. "The gas tax is not going to raise the amount of money that we need," he said. "

Another article I found:

"Where do gas taxes really go?"

Quote :

"If North Carolina truly is running low on money for roads, buses and bridges, Marjorie Minor says, don't blame drivers who buy less gas. Blame state political leaders who take gas tax money from the Highway Trust Fund -- and then spend it on other stuff. "For the last couple of years, they've taken hundreds of millions of dollars," said Minor, 60, a Raleigh legal secretary. "This is money they charged us for gas taxes. It's supposed to be for roads. They keep taking it away." Several readers were skeptical when The News & Observer reported last week that the state Department of Transportation is suffering as drivers cut spending on two big sources of DOT taxes: gas and car sales. "You never mentioned the way the governor has 'robbed' the funds collected from gas tax and licensing fees to help balance the general budget," Bob Eby, 70, of Fearrington Village said by e-mail. Eby and other readers asked for an accounting of the money that moves every year from the Highway Trust Fund to a general operating fund, where it helps pay for schools, hospitals and nearly everything other than roads. Is this a lawful, bipartisan transfer, as mostly Democratic defenders say? Or -- as mostly Republican critics like to spin it -- is it a pork-barrel raiding party? Have we misspent enough loot to rebuild 3,000 bridges and upgrade every inch of Interstate 95? Or is this just enough cash to fuel a steady, smudge-pot cynicism about government waste? The issue has bounced around for years on blogs and talk radio, and in campaign debates. The Road Worrier dug out the numbers with the help of the legislature's fiscal research staff. Marjorie Minor is mostly right. Before 1989, North Carolina collected a sales tax on cars that generated money for the General Fund -- not for roads. In 1989, Republican Gov. Jim Martin and the Democrat-controlled legislature replaced the car sales tax with a highway use tax on cars. This money went to a new Highway Trust Fund, to help build bridges and highways. To make up for the money lost to the General Fund, legislators would have to raise taxes or cut spending. Instead, they agreed that $170 million would move each year from the Highway Trust Fund to the General Fund. (Today the highway use tax generates a lot more for the Highway Trust Fund -- $565 million last year.) What critics call raiding started in 2001 and continued through 2005. Democratic Gov. Mike Easley and the legislature upped the transfer by $80 million, to $250 million a year. This added up to an extra $400 million removed from the Highway Trust Fund over five years. They grabbed another $125 million in 2002. But they called this a loan, and they reimbursed the Highway Trust Fund in 2006. These days, pundits and press accounts frequently say that the extra money taken from the Highway Trust Fund was repaid. But most of it never was. The only money paid back was the $125 million "loan." The other $400 million, moved to the General Fund between 2001 and 2005, never came back to the Highway Trust Fund. In all, $3.1 billion has been moved to the General Fund in the yearly $170 million transfers authorized by the 1989 Highway Trust Fund Act. It's hard to call that a raid, but some people do. On top of that, if you want to call the extra $400 million highway robbery, be my guest. This money was spent for other stuff our legislature decided we needed. We won't see it again. This year, the legislature finally began phasing out the yearly transfer. The shift to the General Fund will fall from $145 million this year to $71 million in 2010. Where will that money go? Starting this year at $25 million a year, it will help the N.C. Turnpike Authority build toll roads -- including the Triangle Expressway, set to start construction in December. Four hundred million dollars is a lot of money. But state planners figure North Carolina will fall at least $65 billion short of the money it needs for transportation over the next 25 years. Brad Wilson of Raleigh, an insurance executive, is chairman of a statewide committee that will meet next week to talk about ideas for closing that $65 billion gap. "I think if they never had that $170 million transfer, and we'd had that $170 million over time for transportation, we'd still be having this conversation today," Wilson said. "

http://www.newsobserver.com/news/growth/traffic/story/1174007.html

[Edited on November 24, 2008 at 5:49 PM. Reason : .]

11/24/2008 5:44:54 PM

that would be some BS.....and I would say fuck that

Quote :

"To hell with this crap. If this shit gets out of hand I'm gonna register my cars in SC (b/c that's where my parents will be living"

11/24/2008 6:02:48 PM

Quote :

"Replacing the aging, narrow Yadkin River Bridge along Interstate 85 could cost $400 million, Foster said."

There is no fucking way, thats just insanely expensive for what it is.

11/25/2008 12:05:39 AM

it will be a pain in the ass when they do it

i would imagine that they will go to two separate bridges, 3 lanes each and then have to reconfigure that exit and entrance for NC-150 on the north side and do something to fix the southbound curve before the bridge

hopefully all those improvements would bump up the speed to 70 in that area once their are 3 lanes from salisbury to 85 in randolph county

[Edited on November 25, 2008 at 8:05 AM. Reason : 

11/25/2008 8:04:36 AM

their, jesus christ, i meant there

so fucking stupid

11/25/2008 9:06:39 AM

^ya know, I completely neglected to think of the cost of having to build a temporarily bridge and other temp infastructure

11/25/2008 3:11:20 PM

All i know is i will be commuting from lexington to salisbury, and if/when they replace that bridge, it will royally fuck me, unless they go balls out with adequate temporary bridges.

11/25/2008 3:58:31 PM

Quote :

"I drive on roads that are less utilized and travelled, hence needing less maintenance and far less costly to build."

The fact that they are less utilized means the cost per traveler will be higher thanks to our winters. If we took two roads, one with cars on them and one without, the road that doesn't get cars using it will at some point eventually need repair. Furthermore, how on earth do you think you'd get those roads built in BFE if it weren't for the excess of taxes from those of us that drive on the roads in the metros? If we only taxed and funded roads as they were needed, in 20 years all those back roads you drive would be so littered with pot holes that you'd might as well open up a water park and sell tickets.

Quote :

"Man to hell with the DOT and their budget "shortfall". Right now they're repaving sections of I-40 between Raleigh and Durham. And I have no idea why, there's nothing wrong with the surface being torn up and replaced."

Well, they did fuck up the widening and had to rip a lot of it up and repave. That's probably what you're seeing.

Quote :

"Another infuriating article, including the stupid title:"

I'm not infuriated, why are you?

Quote :

"Before 1989, North Carolina collected a sales tax on cars that generated money for the General Fund -- not for roads. In 1989, Republican Gov. Jim Martin and the Democrat-controlled legislature replaced the car sales tax with a highway use tax on cars. This money went to a new Highway Trust Fund, to help build bridges and highways. To make up for the money lost to the General Fund, legislators would have to raise taxes or cut spending. Instead, they agreed that $170 million would move each year from the Highway Trust Fund to the General Fund. (Today the highway use tax generates a lot more for the Highway Trust Fund -- $565 million last year.)"

So, if I read between the hate that everyone spews about "raiding the highway fund", it looks like to me the tax on cars was just a revenue generator for whatever was needed in the budget. I imagine everyone bitched and moaned about it so they placated the voters and said they'd only use it for highways since people were hung up on them taxing cars for non car related projects. The legislators quickly realized they had a shortfall and chose to move money rather than to cut spending.

The question I have is, if there really is so much pork being smoked in this state, where the hell is it all going? You'd think if the spending was so outrageous in this state, there would be a watchdog group that would publish all the waste. Maybe it exists...maybe one of you gear heads would do us the favor and find this report. I'd love to see where all the waste is going, because I don't see it. I see great roads, great schools, and a great state to live.

Quote :

" i would imagine that they will go to two separate bridges, 3 lanes each and then have to reconfigure that exit and entrance for NC-150 on the north side and do something to fix the southbound curve before the bridge"

I have a buddy that works for a traffic study company and says they'll build brand new bridges a ways down from where the current bridge is. I swear I remember him saying like 1/2 mile and I thought that was an absurdly long way away from where it is now, but you have to realize it probably won't just be the bridges but they'll connect the 3 lanes to the north of the bridges and the new lanes to the south of the bridges. This would be a major undertaking for sure.

11/25/2008 9:47:27 PM

^ if that is the case, then that will speed up construction a whole lot because there will be no issues with traffic

11/25/2008 9:54:05 PM

Mileage tax among transportation funding ideas

Quote :

"A special transportation committee gave final approval Wednesday to a report that proposes a new tax on the number of miles a car is driven each year, as well as other options for generating highway and transit money. The vehicle miles tax would be calculated during the car's annual inspection and likely would supplement or replace the gas tax. Legislators on the 21st Century Transportation Committee cautioned that a new tax is unlikely to advance during a budget crisis. The special committee was formed to propose a menu of options for transportation funding, because the state's primary sources of money -- the gas tax and a tax on car sales -- are flat or declining. The group also proposed toll booths on Interstates 77 and 95. Committee member Chuck McGrady, however, said the committee skirted the question of overhauling how the Department of Transportation operates after years of complaints about turf battles, political patronage and dysfunctional divisions. "We haven't gone far enough," said McGrady, a Henderson County commissioner. Asheville Mayor Terry Bellamy, another committee member, cast the lone "no" vote on the final version of the recommendations, saying the vehicle miles tax unfairly penalized rural residents with long commutes and no public transportation. Committee Chairman Brad Wilson, chief operating officer of Blue Cross Blue Shield of North Carolina, said the report could gather dust unless individuals and communities support the recommendations. He acknowledged that raising new taxes is unpopular but said that a failing transportation system will make the state less attractive to new employers. Steve Jackson, an analyst who focuses on transportation issues for the N.C. Justice Center's Budget & Tax Center, criticized the report as lacking vision. "The report offers no consistent vision for how to move forward," he said in a news release. "Given how fundamental our transportation problems are in North Carolina, this is very disappointing. The policy solutions suggested are more 1955 than 2055." "

http://www.newsobserver.com/politics/story/1329467.html

12/11/2008 8:33:14 AM

Quote :

"could it be an influx of new citizens, coming from states where the cost of living is WAYY higher, and toll roads have been the norm for decades???? "

Read: Yankees

12/11/2008 12:36:31 PM