Are there still stations in the Raleigh area that don't contain ethanol? I've googled the heck out of it, but I can't find any information. As far as I know, e10 is not mandated in NC yet, but a lot of stations use it. And unfortunately the stations are not required to display whether ethanol is added or not.

If there still are stations without ethanol, then maybe we should put together a list, for those interested in getting the most power and mpg out of their car.

I should note that my purpose is that I'm trying to tune a race car, and ethanol has a different stoichiometric ratio than gasoline. So regular gasoline will simply make life easier.

[Edited on December 3, 2008 at 1:41 PM. Reason : ]

12/3/2008 1:34:09 PM

fuck that, i just live

12/3/2008 1:35:45 PM

gas is getting cheap enough that it is not economical to add ethanol

i wouldnt worry about it

12/3/2008 1:36:42 PM

adam: As do I. And life would be easier if I didn't have to tune my race car for two different air to fuel ratios.

[Edited on December 3, 2008 at 1:42 PM. Reason : ]

12/3/2008 1:38:14 PM

shit, I didn't think about this when I filled up my boat. hope it wasn't E10

12/3/2008 1:41:08 PM

I, too, would be interested in this information. E10 hurts the performance of my 1992 era automobile.

Fucking gov't idiots

12/3/2008 2:59:27 PM

it hurts all vehicles.

12/3/2008 3:33:35 PM

^^no it doesn't. The more ethanol in the mixture, the higher the horsepower you will get out of it. You will get lower mpg thought.

JustinHo, if you are tuning your car that precisely, why aren't you running 100+ octane race fuel only? It's going to be the only way you will be able to tune reliably. And FYI, I don't know of a single distributor in the Carolinas that *doesnt* use e10 or higher on 87/89 octance. On premium I dont have a clue in hell.

12/3/2008 4:52:05 PM

you wont see a real change in horsepower unless you utilize the ethanol with higher compression, more boost (forced induction), more timing, etc.

same thing with running 93 octane in a car that was designed for 87.

also, his definition of "performance" might take mpg into consideration.



[Edited on December 3, 2008 at 5:17 PM. Reason : .]

12/3/2008 5:13:33 PM

Quote :

"And FYI, I don't know of a single distributor in the Carolinas that *doesnt* use e10 or higher on 87/89 octance. On premium I dont have a clue in hell."

i hope that no distributor does higher than e10 with gasoline since all non-flex fuel cars are only designed to take up to 10% ethanol

12/3/2008 5:18:30 PM

Looks like you may be getting your wish pretty soon though

http://www.abs-cbnnews.com/business/11/28/08/rp-should-review-mandated-ethanol-blend

And, I know in the midwest I've seen and used stations with higher than e10. There was an article in the last week that said consumer vehicles can use up to an e20 blend without any changes needed (this was for non-premium gas).

Quote :

"you wont see a real change in horsepower unless you utilize the ethanol with higher compression, more boost (forced induction), more timing, etc."

Yeah, it's a BIG boost on e85. There's an e85 conversion for the Lotus that nets you about 20% more horsepower. And we have it at the pump up here, unfortunately the nearest station is 40 miles away

12/3/2008 5:46:10 PM

Quote :

"^^no it doesn't. The more ethanol in the mixture, the higher the horsepower you will get out of it. You will get lower mpg thought."

beethead knows what I'm talking about. My engine's compression ratio is less than 10:1, using a higher octane gasoline with ethanol does nothing to my power output. But it does hurt my fuel mileage b/c of lower energy content per unit.

12/3/2008 6:06:11 PM

There is no gain in horsepower, you lose horsepower.

Ethanol produces about 20% less power than gasoline, so 10% ethanol reduce power and mileage by about 2% (20% X 10% = 2%)

However, ethanol has more octane in it, so there are benefits with turbo'd applications.

The reason I don't run 100 octane is that it is illegal in my class. Not to mention the fact that my car produces max torque long before it knocks.

12/3/2008 6:10:56 PM

Quote :

"There is no gain in horsepower, you lose horsepower. Ethanol produces about 20% less power than gasoline, so 10% ethanol reduce power and mileage by about 2% (20% X 10% = 2%) However, ethanol has more octane in it, so there are benefits with turbo'd applications. The reason I don't run 100 octane is that it is illegal in my class. Not to mention the fact that my car produces max torque long before it knocks."

You don't lose horsepower. The net thermal energy content of ethanol is quite a bit less per unit volume, but that's where you make up for it with change in fuel/air ratio. Ethanol has a higher equivalent octane rating than gasoline, but it has a much higher vapor pressure and correspondingly, a rather low boiling point. So there are several reasons ethanol is a favorable motor fuel: 1. higher equivalent octane allows for higher compression ratios, and internal combustion engines actually become MORE thermodynamically efficient with increasing compression ratios...and their power potential increases as a result. 2. Ethanol evaporates rapidly and easily. During its phase change from liquid to vapor, it absorbs LOTS of heat energy, which in turn creates a denser intake mixture with more power potential AND helps with the whole detonation issue.

Sure, ethanol doesn't contain as much energy, and efficiency in terms of miles per gallon isn't as high, but it's an apples-to-coconuts comparison. Overall, it provides for greater combustion efficiency and more power in engines that are designed or tuned to use it to its fullest benefit.

Oh, and ethanol doesn't have one tiny bit of OCTANE in it. Octane ratings are actually equivalency ratings based on tests run on a test engine in an SAE test facility on straight iso-octane. It's called the Anti Knock Index. They can adjust the engine's compression ratio on the fly, and they determine a fuel's research octane rating based on the engine's tendency to knock in comparison to running on isooctane. Hell, even gasoline is a bastard mix of hydrocarbons and might or might not have a whole lot of actual octane in it.

[Edited on December 3, 2008 at 9:31 PM. Reason : blah.]

12/3/2008 9:26:45 PM

But it's still fair to say you lose both hp and mpg when you run E10 in a vehicle designed for regular gasoline.

12/3/2008 9:36:41 PM

still an apples-to-bananas comparison...

you lose ALL of your horsepower if you try to run a gasoline engine on diesel fuel...

12/3/2008 9:38:45 PM

does 93 octane have ethanol in it?

12/3/2008 10:01:21 PM

^It varies from pump to pump, station to station.

Cheaper/mid-tier fuels will almost guaranteed have e5-e10 in all of their fuels.

The only premium gas I know of that "supposedly" doesn't contain ethanol nationwide is Shell V-Power Premium. Even then, you should check the sticker on the pump (at least in NC, some states don't require labeling).

But really you guys are being paranoid about this. Other than raising prices a few cents, there is very little difference with an e10 blend. At worst you should run an injector cleaner once a year to get out any gummed up shit in your injectors.

E85 nets about 20% more horsepower and 20% less mpg with proper injectors and fuel management. So E10 blends would, by extrapolation, have less than a 2.5% change on either metric. Like zx said though, it INCREASES power, not decreasing it.

12/3/2008 11:07:29 PM

No no, it increases horsepower only if you're willing to shave your head, add a turbo, etc. A normally aspirated engine that is unmodified will result in a net loss of horsepower.

Anyways, good to know about Shell premium.

FYI, NC does not require labeling either.

12/3/2008 11:56:30 PM

I didn't know mid/lower tier fuel stations were more likely to have ethanol blends in their fuel.

Makes me feel better b/c I never fill up there. I usually fill up at Shell, BP, or Exxon.

12/4/2008 4:25:23 PM

one thing to note about E10 fuels is that ethanol is actually a water attractant. this is bad for vehicles such as race cars, boats, motorcycles, jet skis, lawn mowers, etc. or anything that doesn't get driven often. i've read various reports and talked to some marine mechanics who are having to do full rebuilds on boat engines because of the rust buildup on the cylinder walls and entire fuel system replacement due to excessive moisture and rust. Sta-bil released a new marine fuel stabilizer which is blue in color (darker than your shit, baonest.) that reverses the effects of E10 fuel.

12/4/2008 4:31:05 PM

^a damn good point. Hygroscopic is the geek term! Methanol is even worse. In my model airplane engines (which burn a mix of methanol, nitromethane, and lubricating oil), bearings get pitted and corroded, rings stick, etc., unless I run them COMPLETELY DRY and follow up with a dose of good quality afterrun oil/marvel mystery oil/air tool oil to prevent corrosion.

12/4/2008 4:52:42 PM